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Tucker 1544 IRAN Project

Pontoon Princess

Cattitute
GOLD Site Supporter
so, my question remains,

Just how much horsepower do you need, to go, 5 mph?

I will see your 8.1 and raise you a Roush powered 440...
 

Snowy Rivers

Well-known member
Sweeeeeeet

I do not have the coin to be able to go with the later big block stuff...

But the Old MK IV Big blocks are still healthy and if used improperly will break things.

I have no idea what the OC 12 DIFFY is rated for power wise and I do not want to find out the break point either.

The 8.1 install is great looking job....
 

Snowy Rivers

Well-known member
Actually the power needed is very low given the extremely deep gears in these snow machines.

The cool factor....now that's another story.....:smile::smile:

Maybe a blown 426 Hemi.....but even cool can only go so far ya know...
 

1boringguy

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
BFT,

I recall you thanking me previously about timing info. Lol, I get so much knowledge and info from those here that any little bit I can contribute still leaves me pretty lopsided in that department. In that vein, thanks for another 'long winded' post, about the LS swap considerations. Good thoughts as I'm also pondering engine options for the 1644. Live with the 360? Build it to a 408 stroker and add fuel injection? Install the Cummins or a 7.3 that I already have? Find an LS?

A number of pros and cons with each of those options for sure, but I appreciate your thoughts/considerations about the LS. I have owned several LS engines in various things, definitely some strong pros to them.
 

olympicorange

Active member
BFT,

I recall you thanking me previously about timing info. Lol, I get so much knowledge and info from those here that any little bit I can contribute still leaves me pretty lopsided in that department. In that vein, thanks for another 'long winded' post, about the LS swap considerations. Good thoughts as I'm also pondering engine options for the 1644. Live with the 360? Build it to a 408 stroker and add fuel injection? Install the Cummins or a 7.3 that I already have? Find an LS?

A number of pros and cons with each of those options for sure, but I appreciate your thoughts/considerations about the LS. I have owned several LS engines in various things, definitely some strong pros to them.

….. on our ''parade'' ride a few weeks ago, the LOON cat , a 1990 1542 , had a 5.9L /12Valve cummins , with the Allison. nice pkg., fits in nicely, with the ''extended'' frame , like yours. you can pickup a 12V cheap these days. an in-line engine has great torque, easy ''one wire'' hookup, the Allison fits nicely, even better if you have the allison in yours already. and all your items under the hood will still fit,.... and fuel economy is amazing ,...:thumbup:
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Thanks for all the kind words...

Mikemikelle,

You make it sound like we have a fleet of super-modified snowcats used exclusively for nefarious activities; as though we’re the snowcat equivalent of moonshine runners. I’ll admit smuggling Revelstoke Pecan Whiskey across snowed-in mountain passes into the Peoples Republic of Utah has a certain amount of cachet, but the reality is we have exactly one machine that’s been operated with a newer generation engine. Yes, Snowzilla’s power upgrades are in progress, and “Gutless" is now in line for an upgrade, but really we’re just a couple of knuckleheads who like to tinker with snowcats....
 

1boringguy

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
….. on our ''parade'' ride a few weeks ago, the LOON cat , a 1990 1542 , had a 5.9L /12Valve cummins , with the Allison. nice pkg., fits in nicely, with the ''extended'' frame , like yours. you can pickup a 12V cheap these days. an in-line engine has great torque, easy ''one wire'' hookup, the Allison fits nicely, even better if you have the allison in yours already. and all your items under the hood will still fit,.... and fuel economy is amazing ,...:thumbup:

OO,

I like the 5.9 Cummins plenty and I have one in the shop that could go in. Having the Allison, probably don't even need to move the trans. just pull the 360 insert 5.9. Minor adapting. The part I'm having a hard time with is adding 600 lbs to the front end when ground pressure matters.

I have a low mileage 7.3 powerstroke too that's a couple hundred lbs lighter, but more adapting, and the 7.3 never was a great starting engine in extreme cold. Could add a Cummins style intake heater, but certainly some issues there.

The LS engines are good engines that can be modified with great results, but as BFT says, still plenty of adapting to do.

Not exactly sure of the curves if a person strokes the 360 and keeps the build into pump gas range, but think 400 hp, 450 torque range is realistic. A good bump from stock 360. Add fuel injection to it. Sure TB fuel injection isn't as good as sq port. But virtually no adapting going this route.

Obviously nicer to have 1400 rpm torque than 3000 rpm torque in a cat, but are the differences worth it for me? 600 lbs?

Not building looking to get/put 10,000 hrs on it. I like the Cummins and the stroker options, but at the moment I'm leaning toward the stroker option if I change it.

As the meme goes; change my mind :wink:
 

olympicorange

Active member
…… 1BG, I respect your options. I just looked up the base curve weight ,...between the 7.3L & the 5.9L. they all say the L-6 is 200 lbs. heavier. well, I've wrestled a ton of each, and I always had a harder time with the v-8's. just from the ''shear'' gravity factor of the two, I 've always assumed the ''wedges'' , with two extra cyls. were heavier. and they sure take up a whole lot more room. yes, so the one big factor is the 7.3L were not commonly attached to an old AT540/SERIES family. as so much , were the ''B'' series . hooking the power steering/hyd. pump isn't as easy. you can ''beef'' the hell out of a ''gasser'' , … but I can't justify carrying that much fuel. I love torque. ( I hate gas engines, have I said that before, ...my bad). so, I can't justify my opinions on practicable experiences ; with high altitudes, ''bottomless' snow, etc....because we don't have that on the east.... but for an ''easy-peezy'' upgrade.... that's the most applicable, bang for the buck, etc. …. oh, also,.. for an upgrade like this; a couple things; upgrade the front leaf springs ( for the weight), reinforce the fifth wheel (like for a tiller upgrade) , etc... the rest will handle it .
 

olympicorange

Active member
……. P.S., .. yes, you wouldn't have to move tranny, or anything else....an even bigger bonus. the AT would handle it just fine,... and with the snow blade,..the upgrades would be a must. but easy enough...
 

olympicorange

Active member
……… I think certain people like ''poking the bear'',... I waiting for him to get ''hungry'' ,.... :smile: and perhaps the ''silent'' factor is that the Tuckers are more fun/easier to ''modify/upgrade'' ,... like an old ''harley'',... as opposed to the other ''two-trackers'' ,..... chassis's ….hmmmmm :smile:
 

1boringguy

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
OO,

Reinforce the 5th wheel.

Not knowledgeable of that, is there a thread, pics, of that around here somewhere?
 

DAVENET

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
olympicorange;20719850 I can't justify my opinions on practicable experiences ; with high altitudes said:
And to add, how many times in reality will you be out when there is 4 feet of champagne powder? The 600 additional pounds could factor in those conditions, but for anything else the easy peasy route wins. And you already have one sitting right there teasing you! Simple swap and if you don't like it, build the stroker & stick it in instead!
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
1BG,

I’m sorry we didn’t meet in Sun Valley…Hopefully next year!!!!

I think you covered the plusses and minuses pretty well. Especially with a front blade setup weighing several hundred pounds, the added weight of the 6BT becomes an even bigger factor.

I remember seeing a really nice 1990-ish, ex-ATT 1643 for sale with a front blade at SnoTrans several years ago, and I’m quite sure that had a Cummins 6BT in it. As I recall, the price was north of $60K, but wow, was that a nice machine… You might call Tucker and pick their collective brain about the 6BT in a front engined Tucker. I have found them very helpful and friendly on several occasions, and it would almost certainly be worth your time to make the call. I’d probably start with Jeff Godard, who is now in sales, but he was the parts and service manager beforehand. If Jeff doesn’t personally know the answer, he will know who to contact.

The Ford/Navistar 7.3 engine varies considerably between model years. Many are turbocharged, but some not. (All PowerStrokes are turbocharged.) I believe Ford used an adapter plate between the engine block and the transmission bell housing. There are a number of aftermarket adapter plates for various transmissions. They’re a bit lighter than the Cummins 6BT, but still very heavy.

I think it was 300 H&H who advocated for a stroker 360 in a different thread... While the Holley Sniper system is a throttle body system, Edelbrock’s Pro-Flo 4 system is multi-port. Naturally, it’s more money…

I’ve read bunches of articles about “Dyno-tested” engine combinations that produce all kinds of horsepower and torque. But, and this is a big BUT, I’m suspect. When you get horsepower and torque numbers from a major automotive manufacturer, they’re adhering to the rules and specifications of the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) testing protocols. But a small engine builder? Probably not so much.

I had a Chevy L72 427 engine professionally built by a very reputable guy several years ago. Allegedly it dyno-ed at 560 HP @6,000RPM. That’s impressive, no doubt about it. But did he use the stock exhaust manifolds? NO, he used a set of free-flowing headers. What about the stock transistorized ignition system? NO again, he used a different distributor setup. I’m guessing (I wasn’t there) he used a big velocity stack instead of a factory air cleaner, and probably had an electrically powered water pump and a big fan blowing on the engine. Great dyno numbers, but in a totally unrealistic setup. IMHO, that makes the numbers meaningless, and I strongly suspect that’s the case with many engine builds and the claimed numbers.

Lot’s of goodies inside that engine... though it looks completely stock. I might even sneak it past Mikemille’s scrutiny!

IMG_7865.jpg

But a not insignificant advantage to keeping the 360 is it all bolts right in - and no modifications may be necessary.

Before WBJ1 went all-in on the L94 swap, he considered upgrading from the 318 to a 360 and modifying that. But the parts alone start adding up fast: new balanced rotating assembly, new camshaft and lifters, new timing chain and sprockets, complete gasket set, new cylinder heads, fuel injection… system, then you have machine work to have done on top of the parts bill, and if you don’t have the skills, assembly labor as well!. I should point out WBJ1’s conversion included replacing the stock 5-speed with an AT545, and finding the adapter housing for a Chrysler LA engine to an AT545 is very tough. He also factored in selling the stock engine and transmission and using those funds to offset the total cost. AND he had a very sweet (and paid for) complete L94 engine sitting in his garage in GA. If you want to go the 360 stroker route, my impression is Hughes Engines in Washington, IL are probably the go-to folks for knowledge and parts.

I would think when Tucker changed the front blade design to the style you have with the turntable supported blade they made the turntable setup more robust. Maybe something to ask/confirm if you talk with Tucker.

Good Luck!
 

olympicorange

Active member
OO,

Reinforce the 5th wheel.

Not knowledgeable of that, is there a thread, pics, of that around here somewhere?
…….. 1BG, i'm going to guess, that somewhere along the lines , (yrs.) …. of fellow bloggers,....that someone , somewhere has done an article. i'm still new here, just about a year in,... so I;m not sure. but as I understand the ''triology'' , the fifth wheels all started out in the Alum. style. due to ''breakage'' issues,... they adapted to steel. I believe the first ones were 1/2'' thick plates. due to certain applications, they still had some breakage issues. so, they ''beefed'' them up to the 5/8'' plates. I haven't measured the newer ''M E '' models, but they are stout. so, a year ago I posted a few pics of ''updating '' my front 5th whl. plate, when I had it out, because I knew I was going to be install the 4BT, this past summer. I would ''attach '' the link, but i'm horrible at that stuff.... I feel pretty lucky most days ''inserting'' pics...lol.. but i'll try.... also ; all the pieces needed to attach the ''B'' series to the AT545'S,.. I have posted pics of those as well, p/n's, etc.... :smile:
 

The Sweet Wbj1

Active member
GOLD Site Supporter
Seems everyone wants to put race car engine in a tractor !!!!:smileywac

After spending a week in Colorado at 10,000' with a stock 360 Tucker I was begging for a race car engine.....

First trip up to the cabin took over two hours IIRC. Couldn't hardly get out of 1st gear for the last couple miles. No thank you.


No one even mentioning fuel efficiency gains with an LS swap. I had an old Jeep truck with a 360 in it and the thing got 7-8 mpg. The 6.2 LS in a Denali gets something like 16 MPG IIRC. That has to translate to a Tucker IMO. Not that fuel efficiency is the most important thing, but it is a nice bonus.
 
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DAVENET

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
…….. so, a year ago I posted a few pics of ''updating '' my front 5th whl. plate, when I had it out, because I knew I was going to be install the 4BT, this past summer. I would ''attach '' the link, but i'm horrible at that stuff.... I feel pretty lucky most days ''inserting'' pics...lol..

Found trunnion & pivot shaft work, but nothing posted about any additional plate work. http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=20696593&postcount=37

If you find it, just click on the port number in the upper right & it will generate a new page (to copy & paste) with just that post's info.
 

1boringguy

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
OO,

Yes, weight aside, I would definitely go the Cummins route I think, low end torque is the right thing for a cat. Measured, my 5th wheel plate is .500 steel. Don't have enough experience to know what that standard design looks like, but the blade framework surely adds some strength. Thanks to DAVENET and when I get a bit I'll see if I can find the posts with the rest of the plate and eng/trans info.

BFT,

Yes, from past experience I agree dyno info is best used to indicate amount of gain per upgrade. Same engine, same dyno. Otherwise they can be pretty subjective, dependent up many variables, and assumptions in calculations. Wheel dynos probably worse than engine dynos.

Certainly everyone's list of considerations is going to look different. And I appreciate everyone sharing their angle, better to ponder all of that ahead of time. Not the least of my thoughts is that my uncle won't be capable of having the shop for to many more years, and the shop grandpa started (and my high school job) surely won't stay in the family. My uncle has had a knowledge and passion in past years for building torque producing mopar engines, so in keeping this cat a little more to era, and in passing it along to Little Capt some day, having my uncle help with this build, well there's all that too. Although I might have to twist his arm a little, as his first comment was, 'well how much power do you really need in that thing anyway'.

Besides it's way more fun to see the outcome of everyone's different upgrades, rather than simply all the same ...... that would be boring :smile:

I will check with Tucker for thoughts, they surely have the advantage when it comes to cumulative experience and R&D.

Thanks all for the input, hope maybe 300 H&H might chime in yet.

Definitely hope to meet all in SV next year.
 

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olympicorange

Active member
……….. hey 1BG, good pics . :thumbup: I haven't had the pleasure of a snow blade unit. I see the .500'' plate,... and the ''massive'' hy-fax block/housing on top. well, that makes a huge plus.... all the non-blade units are a 1/3 of that . someone correct me if i'm wrong ,.. but that's a huge support upgrade. come to think of it, now,.. the newer ''M E '' have the same ''guides''. i'm really surprised that the ''factory o.e.m'' installed units , with the blades, don't have the 5/8'' , automatically.... let us know what ''Tucker'' has to say about all this , and where the upgrades all applied, etc... i'm curious as well..... never hurts to ask,.. I hope they can help ...:thumbup::thumbup:
 

olympicorange

Active member
Found trunnion & pivot shaft work, but nothing posted about any additional plate work. http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=20696593&postcount=37

If you find it, just click on the port number in the upper right & it will generate a new page (to copy & paste) with just that post's info.


….. thx Dave, my man,... I appreciate the help. hope I can apply it ...lol. so maybe I didn't post the pics of the ''beefing'' of the frt. 5th wheel plate. I 'll look and see for the pics, but in the meantime,.. I took some other pics today... the ''unpainted'' pics are the ones done , when the ''tiller'' was installed, so I copied them,... after I ''killed'' some more snowflakes... :smile:
 

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olympicorange

Active member
…… just occurred to me,, we should move this convo to a new thread,.. we've kinda ''hijacked '' BFT's thread,... pardon's to the ''bear'',...
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Time to update this thread...

With SV 2021 approaching and the 1544’s engine ailing, we decided to try and get the existing engine running properly.

I mentioned this is another thread started by another member, but as much as I would love to replace the 360 Industrial with a nice, powerful, reliable, fuel injected, computer-controlled LS engine that uses technology decades newer (and better) than the 360, the plan is to sell this Tucker, presumably in the not-too-distant future. An LS swap is a lot of work, and a chunk of money. Roughly $4k in parts, not including the cost of the engine, or anything for labor. We thought we would need to get about $10K more for the machine if we swapped in an LS. Snowcat prices have come up substantially, and we think the number of potential buyers willing to pay up for an LS is relatively small, so we decided to spend the necessary time and money to get the 360 running well.

We needed to find out where the problems were, and performed a cylinder leakage test on all the cylinders. Some cylinders were great, some okay and some downright awful. Interestingly, the worst cylinders showed the leakage out the valves. What the heck? The engine had only about 40 hours of use since the heads had been to a machine shop for a valve job. It wasn't a cheapy valve job either: all new exhaust valves and seats, the heads milled to clean, new guides, new seals, etc. We removed the heads and took them back to the machine shop and explained the issues. They tested the sealing of the valves and found most to be great, but the worst had a piece of carbon preventing the valve from properly sealing. YGTBSM, but they removed the valve and cleaned it along with the seat, and then sure enough it sealed. The owner of the machine shop was convinced there was more to the problem than the carbon, and thought there was an issue with the lower end. Maybe a broken piston ring, or two, maybe some stuck rings, but something. I groaned…LOUDLY.

I consider myself a card-carrying Chrysler hater (okay, I don’t carry the card, but I genuinely hate Chryslers (and that includes Fiat, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, and apparently Peugeot will be added to the list, soon.)) The idea of removing the engine to pour money into a rebuild (of a Chrysler, no less) was not a pleasant thought. Scott suggested re-ringing the engine in place. Huh? So he explained what he proposed and that seemed a somewhat palatable solution.

We unbolted the front fifth wheel plate assembly from the Tucker frame, and then the engine from the frame and were able to lift the engine high enough to remove the exhaust pipe (we had previously disconnected the muffler) and then the oil pan. The pistons and connecting rods were all removed and we found nothing wrong with the rings. Lots of carbon on the tops of the pistons, but we already knew that because with the heads removed we could see the carbon.

Now of course good old project creep set in…bigly. The connecting rod bearings showed a surprising amount of wear, so we decided to replace those. “While we’re here” maybe we should take apart the front of the engine and replace the cam. That of course means a new timing chain and sprockets, and new lifters. Hughes Engines are a highly regarded "Chrysler only” company and I sought out their opinion on what would be the optimal cam for our engine and application. Of course it would be helpful to know what we had as far as the existing cam's profile specs, but I have never been able to find much information about Chrysler Industrial engines anywhere, so it was basically putting my trust in Hughes as far as improving the engine’s power output. (A few years ago I was digging around on the Internet and a company called Foley Engines seemed to have some Chrysler Industrial knowledge, so I called them. The fellow introduced himself as “Dr. Diesel”. Really? If you have to assume an Internet persona to sell stuff, then with me your credibility is questionable from the get-go.)

And, once the decision to replace the cam was made... “since it’s apart” let’s replace the water pump, fan belts, hydraulic pump belts and radiator hoses. Yes, it’s that ever present “more money” decision but we felt that a potential buyer would appreciate the new parts rather than reinstalling older parts that are of unknown age. After Scott honed the block and we got the pistons reinstalled, he suggested we replace the rear main seal (still more project creep).

While I solidly agreed with the concept, I couldn’t just go with his suggestion. Replacing the cam was my idea... and he whined somewhat about the extra work. There was no way I could just say okay to replacing the rear main seal without returning the favor and complaining.

Readers should know that poor ol' Blackfoot is the bear that gets poked from multiple sources. Sometimes, it’s none other than our beloved PP. Frequently, it’s The Infamous WBJ1. (Note: If Ruth Bader Ginsburg could be called “The Notorious RBG”, referring to WBJ1 as “The Infamous WBJ1” certainly seems justified.) And on pretty much a daily basis - Scott does the poking. The bear has to get his licks in when he can…

Now we’re waiting for a bunch of parts to arrive from Rock Auto so we can complete the engine reassembly process….
 

olympicorange

Active member
When you open the can..''of worms'',.. the list can grow quickly. being in the diesel business, I have had to deal & buy parts off the N.J. based ,... ''dr. diesel''. he has one opinion for sure ,... his . but you can pull the needed info out of him, if one is persistent & patient enough,.... justifiable ''groans'''.............
 
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