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Unions?

squerly

Supported Ben Carson
I probably just haven't been exposed to the good that unions provide, so I am writing this from an argubably biased position, but...

I hate unions. I feel they create an unfriendly and uncompetitive environment that contributes to companies moving operations out of the US and into an atmosphere that is more in tune with profitability. How does that benefit me? How does that benefit you? How does that benefit anyone other than the country that ther company now operates in?

Help me fellow FF'ers, provide me with the necessary insight to see the benefit that obviously eludes me.
 
It appears there is a mandatory fee to belong to the union, and you can’t work at the business unless you are a member of the union. I don’t think I would like that, but let’s move on. According to the AFL-CIO website, unions are about a simple proposition:
Unions are about a simple proposition: 1) By joining together, working women and men gain strength in numbers so they can have a voice at work about what they care about. 2) They negotiate a contract with their employer for things like a fair and safe workplace, better wages, a secure retirement and family-friendly policies such as paid sick leave and scheduling hours. 3) They have a voice in how their jobs get done, creating a more stable, productive workforce that provides better services and products. 4) Always adapting to the challenges of our nation’s evolving workforce, unions are meeting the needs of workers in today’s flexible and nontraditional work environments. Because no matter what type of job workers are in, by building power in unions, they can speak out for fairness for all working people in their communities and create better standards and a strong middle class across the country.
The AFL-CIO website doesn’t number the benefits, I did that myself so that I can reference the individual benefit without having to rewrite it
  1. Apparently it is necessary for the workers to”band together” so that they have a voice at work. Why is it necessary to have a “voice at work”? The worker negotiated with the employer when he/she was hired. If the worker has something he/she wishes to talk to the employer about, why do they need a union to do that for them? Simply go see the person that hired you and have your discussion. WTF is so hard about that?
  2. Experience (both from being an employee and from being an employer) tells me that if you’re worth half a fuck you will have a fair and safe workplace with good wages, secure retirement and family-friendly policies; if you are not worth a fuck you will not have a job. That’s the “free enterprise” system and it used to work pretty good.
  3. This one kills me. First off, WHY should an employee have a voice in how the jobs get done? I’m an employer; you’re an employee, period. I take the risks, foot the bills, pay the insurance’s, etc. You come to work at 8:00, leave at 5:00, and then you forget about it until tomorrow when you come back to work again. I don’t need you to have a voice in the way the job is run. If I feel you are qualified to have a voice I will advance you to supervisor or partner.
  4. Number 4 trumpets that the union is, “Always adapting to the challenges of our nation’s evolving workforce, unions are meeting the needs of workers in today’s flexible and nontraditional work environments” and suggests that building power in unions everyone will be better off. What is really happening is the creation of an entity that uses force (the threat of a walkout) to achieve pay scales and perks for everyone whether deserved or not.
Tell me in simple terms how this is beneficial to the business in any way, shape or form? It appears to me that the union is a leach on the business. This leach produces nothing and can’t exist without the business providing it a home. Removing the blood sucking leach allows the business to run more effectively, more profit is made and the lure of overseas leniency is minimized. Jobs stay at home and that’s good for everyone.
 
For me, an almost 40 year member of the IBEW, Local 300 South Burlington Vermont it has been a love/hate relationship over the last 20 years.

The training is second to none. Mostly voluntary it provides access for one to better their career for very little money. I worked with many professionals who know their jobs very well and worked hard. Remember we are a building trades local so no room for slackers and bad attitudes. Getting the job done and making money for the contractor is understood as a priority. Without them we have nothing but an empty contract and sitting home watching the Young & the Restless.

Many liberals though and many times I had to zip the lips and just do my job.

Our local has supported more than Republican for office and received much crap for it from the International and the AFL-CIO. We actually asked our Democrat Governor to leave our meeting over heated debates about shutting down the local nuke plant. He is a moron and our BA told him so in so many words. Fun night for me. :biggrin:

Just my perspective and I understand fully your feelings about unions Squerly. When I was younger I defended them blindly. No more. I have no love for the UAW and refuse to buy a car made my them. That is why I purchased a Sonata. Made in USA without the UAW. Perfect.
 
You said it right well TR......in 1994 was when I started actualy feeling shame at times for being conected with union....then local 226........ziped the lip and finished my time....tramped a lot..and must say I was treated mighty fine in most of them...but more and more I see Squerlys point of view right well.....:smile:
 
Unions..love them or hate them....

I really dont know Ive never been a member of a union. I work for the feds its a well paying job with excellent benefits so why join one?
 
I look at my union as both another tool and another obstacle to doing my job. Sometimes management around here is completely incompetent and irrational, but usually they are just ignorant and lazy so they really dont get in the way much. Sometimes the union protects people they shouldnt, but I am telling you, if management was doing their jobs there are a few people around here I (and the union) dont want to work with, just management is too damn lazy to do the paperwork. On a side note, I have worked many other private sector jobs recently, the government is better and many levels.
 
So basically what you are saying is because you own a company the people you hire are your slaves to work under what ever conditions you deem is fair to them be it hours they work, compensation etc and they have no say in it. I see and no wonder you hate unions but with out them starting in this country their would of been no middle class, child labor laws, laws against sweet shops etc.
 
I've worked for both union and non union companies.
The union took my money, told me how I should vote (like a good union member should), got drug addicts rehired and were looked as a "gravy train" job if you were a union rep.
The non union shop I got paid more and had the same benefits.
 
I worked 15 years with Iron Worker's Local 89, and served often enough as Job Steward enforcing work rules. Looking back, it is my opinion that we stole from the Owner. Yes, we stole from the Company in terms of self-serving work rules and out right sand bagging.

Then spent 30 years working as the Owner/Construction Manager on Balto/DC mega-projects. With the rare exception, merit-shop contractors and/or subcontractors were the most successful folks to work with on every project. We (the owner) were successful, and they (the merit-shop contractor) were successful AND profitable.

Unions exist to promote the Democrat Party and would kill the golden goose if given the opportunity.
 
I have never been in a union. I frequently work around them.

The part that I do not understand is forcing people to join. Kind of counterpoint to JoeC's comment about trying employees as slaves, this could force someone to join a union that they did not want to join or cannot afford to join then force them to go on a strike they neither can afford or wanted.

In some cases out also can prevent employees being paid based on performance.

I do agree that in the beginning they were much needed.
 
So basically what you are saying is because you own a company the people you hire are your slaves to work under what ever conditions you deem is fair to them be it hours they work, compensation etc and they have no say in it. I see and no wonder you hate unions but with out them starting in this country their would of been no middle class, child labor laws, laws against sweet shops etc.
Damn those employees, wanting to be treated fair. But seriously, we all know that there was a time when the unions were a good idea. But today, not so much. Conditions, # of hours worked, breaks, (minimum) compensation, etc, are all pretty much covered by the mandatory poster every business has become accustomed to buying (under penalty of law) and placing in a conspicuous location. But tell me joec, what does the union do today that is beneficial to the employee and/or the business?

Unless someone can show me different, it appears the (once necessary) unions have run their course and are now more advantageous to the union executives and the politicians who count on them for donations and votes.

Or have I missed something?
 
When I was younger I tried to get into a couple unions. No luck. I didn't know the right people. Frustrating.


I've worked for both union and non union companies.
The union took my money, told me how I should vote (like a good union member should), got drug addicts rehired and were looked as a "gravy train" job if you were a union rep.
The non union shop I got paid more and had the same benefits.

But, do you think it would be the same if all the sudden the unions were disbanded. I suspect the CEO's would get greedy and cut salaries so that unions were needed again. Just speculating.
 
I have never been in a union. I frequently work around them.

The part that I do not understand is forcing people to join. Kind of counterpoint to JoeC's comment about trying employees as slaves, this could force someone to join a union that they did not want to join or cannot afford to join then force them to go on a strike they neither can afford or wanted.

In some cases out also can prevent employees being paid based on performance.

I do agree that in the beginning they were much needed.

Actually Adillo I wasn't forced to join a union nor was I ever told how to vote on anything. I paid due yes and did because we made a bit more money than the non union shops which by the way out numbered us then also. However when we got a raise so did they. We also got laid off when jobs were done or fired when we screwed up and the union would send us to another shop to work. We didn't get paid vacations and if not at work didn't get paid days off with the exception of voting day. The only health care and retirement we got though taken out of our check the employer put nothing into it until Nixon mandated it then employers with more than a few employees had to pay as it became required by law though they only paid a small percentage. I was in a union for 20 years that also trained requiring a 4 year apprenticeship.
 
But, do you think it would be the same if all the sudden the unions were disbanded. I suspect the CEO's would get greedy and cut salaries so that unions were needed again. Just speculating.
If you are working somewhere that isn't paying you what you feel you are worth you can do a couple of things.
  • Talk to the employer and negotiate a wage more in line with your worth
  • Leave and go somewhere you are needed
I valued my employees and provided them with a better than average wage, paid 100% of their health insurance, provided a retirement option, etc. But if you were not a benefit to the company you were sent down the road. Good employees are an assett to the business and employers want to keep them.
 
JoeC - You mad a choice and joined a union. No problem you had a choice. That is what I am talking about choice.

In most of my jobs, I have been paid on how I prformed, not somethnig that typically happens in a uion. If the uion strikes thee members loose a lot of money. with the ability to choose, those that were non union could continue working and eearning.
 
JoeC - You mad a choice and joined a union. No problem you had a choice. That is what I am talking about choice.

In most of my jobs, I have been paid on how I prformed, not somethnig that typically happens in a uion. If the uion strikes thee members loose a lot of money. with the ability to choose, those that were non union could continue working and eearning.

You do understand that no union goes on strike unless the membership votes for it requiring a majority. Hence no one can bitch if they are out on strike and loose pay. Due by the way pay for the union office (hiring hall) salaries of the local Business agent perhaps a secretary and the apprenticeship school.
 
here, you can't work in a union shop unless you're a union member period.

Same in my day also Shep however union shops hired only through the union and not off the street. Now they hired others for who knows where but all sheet metal workers came through the union only. That was until the got the right to work laws on the books killing the trade unions pretty much in most of the southern states.
 
Why are we talking about unions in Political Debate Forum ?



Because we want to.........I think I read not to long ago right here on this forum ...that was one of the main reasons Doc set this forum up......because folks were getting tired of being beat over the head for not staying on perfect point!!!!!! as for me...if I dont like the subject of a thread I go else where...or start my own thread about what ever:biggrin: Or if all else fails I go find Mule to pick on......Just watch thosr hind hooves!!!:yum:
 
JoeC said:
You do understand that no union goes on strike unless the membership votes for it requiring a majority. Hence no one can bitch if they are out on strike and loose pay.

I am adding two and two and getting fourteen here. Of course the minority can complain of lost wages, they did not want the strike in the first place.
 
A long time ago, I worked at one of the world's largest protein companies in the world. I was evil management in a union shop. About 600 members. There was a contract negotiation that a number of the thugs did not like. They dissed the company and company people.

Then they forced a show of hands vote. You know, raise your hand if you are an anti union company person and will accept this piece of shit contract, so we know you are.

Way more than 50% did not want to strike. They stuck. In a year, most lost their jobs. Union decertified.

Lovely, eh?

Btw, the company grew by at least a few billion in value since then.

Union thugs showed them, eh?
 
Strange how right to work states are thriving in this shit economy while big union states are in the toilet, I wonder if there is a connection?
 
A union captain walks into a bar next door to the factory and is about to order a drink to celebrate Obama’s victory when he sees a guy close by wearing a Romney for President button and two beers in front of him. He doesn't have to be an Einstein to know that this guy is a Republican. So, he shouts over to the bartender so loudly that everyone can hear, "Drinks for everyone in here, bartender, but not for the Republican."

Soon after the drinks have been handed out, the Republican gives him a big smile, waves at him, then says, "Thank you!" in an equally loud voice. This infuriates the union captain.

The union captain once again loudly orders drinks for everyone except the Republican. As before, this does not seem to bother the Republican. He continues to smile, and again yells, "Thank you!"
...
The union captain once again loudly orders drinks for everyone except the Republican. As before, this does not seem to bother the Republican. He continues to smile, and again yells, "Thank you!"

The union captain asks the bartender, "What the hell is the matter with that Republican? I've ordered three rounds of drinks for everyone in the bar but him, and all the silly a$$ does is smile and thanks me. Is he nuts?"

"Nope," replies the bartender. "He owns the place."
 
A union captain walks into a bar next door to the factory and is about to order a drink to celebrate Obama’s victory when he sees a guy close by wearing a Romney for President button and two beers in front of him. He doesn't have to be an Einstein to know that this guy is a Republican. So, he shouts over to the bartender so loudly that everyone can hear, "Drinks for everyone in here, bartender, but not for the Republican."

Soon after the drinks have been handed out, the Republican gives him a big smile, waves at him, then says, "Thank you!" in an equally loud voice. This infuriates the union captain.

The union captain once again loudly orders drinks for everyone except the Republican. As before, this does not seem to bother the Republican. He continues to smile, and again yells, "Thank you!"
...
The union captain once again loudly orders drinks for everyone except the Republican. As before, this does not seem to bother the Republican. He continues to smile, and again yells, "Thank you!"

The union captain asks the bartender, "What the hell is the matter with that Republican? I've ordered three rounds of drinks for everyone in the bar but him, and all the silly a$$ does is smile and thanks me. Is he nuts?"

"Nope," replies the bartender. "He owns the place."
Good one Dawg. :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
You do understand that no union goes on strike unless the membership votes for it requiring a majority. Hence no one can bitch if they are out on strike and loose pay. Due by the way pay for the union office (hiring hall) salaries of the local Business agent perhaps a secretary and the apprenticeship school.

Sorry Joe, but I have a major beef with your comment. You say that since the membership votes for strikes so if you're on strike you can't bitch about losing pay. That is the biggest bullshit statement I've ever heard in my life! That makes is sound as if your union rotted your brain. I know you're good and pissed now. Fine. Let me tell you the side of my father working 43 years for one of the largest unions in the country and you can, or at least should, understand why I say your comment is pure bullshit.

First, my father never, not one single time, voted to strike; ever. He understood that there was never a possibility to EVER make up the money lost by being on strike even if the union got everything they wanted. Secondly, he quickly realized that his union was literally a leach killing it's host. The complete morons he worked with generally were single or divorced and really didn't care if they worked or not. My father had a family for which he had to provide. My dad crossed the 'picket line' to work because our family needed the money and they sent a union thug to slit the tires on our cars at our home.

I was in college then, home for the weekend, and had two other football team members at my house with me. We caught them and beat them so badly that the police were called, two ambulances arrived and it was on the news. We were not charged with any crime. My point is the union sent two of their dumbest and biggest thugs to teach my dad a lesson and make it personal. I fucking took it personal alright. That was about the time that my dad quit trying to defend the UMWA on anything and just wanted to finish working until his retirement.

That was back in the 80's. The UMWA had over 20k union workers in my state then. Now they have ZERO. They were so fucking stupid that they bankrupted their employers. Nearly every mine is back open and operating now with NON-UNION workers who make a good living with good benefits. When they announce they need to hire another 20 people, they generally get a thousand applications. Yeah, they are being abused and underpaid; worked like slaves. Right.

Now, how amazing, the UMWA has misappropriated all of the funds their members paid in for 30, 40, 50 years that was to provide for lifetime health care and pensions. After paying in for all of those years, losing tens of thousands of dollars for being out on strikes, my dad is now looking at losing his healthcare (pretty well already gone) and his pension has already dropped to around half of what was promised and he's received notice that they cannot continue to pay as much as they are. Fuck that union! I've also seen several other unions on the same path like a small one called the UAW. They bankrupted the largest automaker in the world and cost our country billions of dollars. Fuck them too! Don't give me any bullshit about union workers with families busting their ass, not voting to strike, doing everything they can at work not having any reason to complain about strikes. That anvil just doesn't float!
 
Sorry Joe, but I have a major beef with your comment. You say that since the membership votes for strikes so if you're on strike you can't bitch about losing pay. That is the biggest bullshit statement I've ever heard in my life! That makes is sound as if your union rotted your brain. I know you're good and pissed now. Fine. Let me tell you the side of my father working 43 years for one of the largest unions in the country and you can, or at least should, understand why I say your comment is pure bullshit.

First, my father never, not one single time, voted to strike; ever. He understood that there was never a possibility to EVER make up the money lost by being on strike even if the union got everything they wanted. Secondly, he quickly realized that his union was literally a leach killing it's host. The complete morons he worked with generally were single or divorced and really didn't care if they worked or not. My father had a family for which he had to provide. My dad crossed the 'picket line' to work because our family needed the money and they sent a union thug to slit the tires on our cars at our home.

I was in college then, home for the weekend, and had two other football team members at my house with me. We caught them and beat them so badly that the police were called, two ambulances arrived and it was on the news. We were not charged with any crime. My point is the union sent two of their dumbest and biggest thugs to teach my dad a lesson and make it personal. I fucking took it personal alright. That was about the time that my dad quit trying to defend the UMWA on anything and just wanted to finish working until his retirement.

That was back in the 80's. The UMWA had over 20k union workers in my state then. Now they have ZERO. They were so fucking stupid that they bankrupted their employers. Nearly every mine is back open and operating now with NON-UNION workers who make a good living with good benefits. When they announce they need to hire another 20 people, they generally get a thousand applications. Yeah, they are being abused and underpaid; worked like slaves. Right.

Now, how amazing, the UMWA has misappropriated all of the funds their members paid in for 30, 40, 50 years that was to provide for lifetime health care and pensions. After paying in for all of those years, losing tens of thousands of dollars for being out on strikes, my dad is now looking at losing his healthcare (pretty well already gone) and his pension has already dropped to around half of what was promised and he's received notice that they cannot continue to pay as much as they are. Fuck that union! I've also seen several other unions on the same path like a small one called the UAW. They bankrupted the largest automaker in the world and cost our country billions of dollars. Fuck them too! Don't give me any bullshit about union workers with families busting their ass, not voting to strike, doing everything they can at work not having any reason to complain about strikes. That anvil just doesn't float!

Well you are entitled to your opinion even if you don't have it right about the union I belonged too. Which by the way I've not been a member of since 1980 when I left the area of working for others and forged out on my own as a private contractor in several fields. Besides unions are pretty much dead in this country today and one of the reasons I left them. The are only about 7% of the working population and it has lead to lower wages for most people that work in today's work force as skilled labor. It also means no jobs for simply having a high school diploma.
 
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