"Snowzilla": A Comprehensive Tucker 1643 Project...

[Blackfoot Tucker]

This update could be called “WBJ1 Hides an Easter Egg... Years in Advance”.

Mrs. Blackfoot would tell you I lack patience, and she’s right. If I decide to play a joke on someone, it’s a pretty short term thing, so WBJ1 deserves great credit for his patience while waiting for his "Easter Egg" to be found. Here’s the story:

Readers will recall WBJ1 sent us a “mystery engine” that turned out to be a GM L94 LS series engine, though to this day we don’t know what year it is, or what it was originally installed in. I know they were used in the Cadillac Escalade, so I’m going with that as the original vehicle.

The engine as delivered.

We really haven’t messed with the engine at all. We did have to replace some damaged coil packs, and we replaced the spark plugs. The oil filter was dented and we replaced that and we drained the engine oil. We added exhaust manifolds, as there were none with the engine. But other than installing a new harmonic balancer and some minor front of the engine modifications it’s basically as we received it. Part of the process of getting P-Z ready to start involved adding anti-freeze, transmission fluid, and of course engine oil. We started by adding five quarts of full synthetic oil and checked the dipstick. Nothing... bone dry. We added more oil. Still nothing... and still bone dry.

Hmmmm? And especially with a new oil filter we should see oil on the dipstick. Where is this oil going? There’s no puddle of oil on the floor, so there’s no massive leak. But something is amiss…

I look at the dipstick and there is a stamped number on it. Here’s a pic of that number.

As the saying goes, “Google is your friend”, so I Googled “GM 12577660” and presto, a GM parts website comes up and provided this information:

WBJ1 sent us an engine with a shorter dipstick from a completely different engine family! (At least it was shorter and not longer.)

“Sweet” WBJ1? I don’t think so...

I've ordered a dipstick for a 2009 Escalade with a 6.2L engine. I THINK that will be correct, and the Easter Egg episode will be over.

We did try and start the engine and perhaps not unexpectedly, there are issues. As a late model engine, it has an OBD II port and the check engine light is on. Reading the codes shows oxygen sensor issues, which is to be expected because none are presently installed, and there are codes relating to the throttle pedal position sensor circuit e voltage being low. Basically the gas pedal assembly isn’t working, so depressing the pedal does nothing. It did start, sort-of. It will run for 5-10 seconds but only on two or three cylinders. At this point we think the fuel injectors are likely clogged as they sat for years and years and the fuel in the system dried up and left deposits.

We've removed the fuel rail and the fuel injectors and cleaned them as best we could. We reinstalled them in the fuel rail and filled the fuel rail with SeaFoam; hoping that will free up the injectors.The fuel rail and injectors are soaking for a few days. New fuel injector O-rings are on order as well as a new throttle pedal position sensor, which is basically the complete pedal assembly. I say this very rarely, but I was pleasantly surprised how reasonably priced it was..

More slow progress, but still moving in the right direction and we’re a little closer to completion...

 

[Pontoon Princess]

tuckillac ? tuckalade ? escatucker ? caducker ? cadzilla ? BSGzilla ? .....

chadster is short a dipstick for sure...lol

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

THE Legendary Blackfoot Tucker gives me too much credit!! I WISH I had been smart enough to hide Easter eggs! Mine would be really good. Like when he went to unwrap it it could have exploded army green paint all over him! Now that would have made for a good pic!

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Ah Hah... Busted. No one who is truly "sweet" would send such a device. Maybe I should refer to you as "The Devious and Infamous WBJ1"?

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

Ah Hah... Busted. No one who is truly "sweet" would send such a device. Maybe I should refer to you as "The Devious and Infamous WBJ1"?

But I did NOT send the device!! Therefore proven SWEET!!

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

While the tube bending mode was still fresh in our minds we decided to tackle the new brake lines. These are also plated steel lines from NAPA, and they come with pre-flared ends and fittings. The flare style is a 45º double flare and requires a different flaring tool. Also, just like with the fuel lines, we needed more than one length of tube and used a brass union fitting to join the two sections. We attach the lines to the frame with small stainless steel clips that use a threaded socket button head stainless steel screw. It requires drilling the frame and tapping the hole. It’s a bit stressful as the tap size is 10-32, which is quite small; and hence easily broken. Fortunately, we were able to get all the holes drilled and tapped without incident!

But then we had some issues. We had a leak at the union fitting and the new brake fluid coming out of the leak was dirty and cloudy. We debated about installing a new master cylinder, and ultimately decided to do so. After installing that and fixing the leaking union…we found the brake line connection at the caliper leaking. ARRGGH…we’ll deal with that next week.

The new O-rings and throttle pedal arrived and we had high hopes those would cure the engine issues. The new throttle pedal solved the P2127 code, but despite soaking in SeaFoam for several days, the fuel injectors just aren’t working properly. The engine ran ever-so-slightly better - but still very poorly. To confirm the diagnosis we removed the air filter and I manned the ignition key while Scott sprayed some starting ether into the air intake. The engine ran fine…. a new set of OEM injectors are enroute to Utah.


One thing we decided to upgrade on P-Z were the bolts that secure both the transfer case and the brake caliper bracket to the frame. The transfer case is mounted at an angle, and there are four 1/2”-13 bolts on each side. The caliper bracket is also mounted with four 1/2”-13 bolts. Tucker uses hex head bolts, and due to the angled transfer case mounting, there isn’t sufficient room to place a socket over two of the transfer case mounting bolts on each side. That means one must use an open-end wrench, which doesn’t fit fully over the bolts, and the wrench swing is limited. Tucker uses some pieces of light gauge sheet metal behind the bolts, and one bends the corners to match the hex angle on the bolts to prevent them from loosening.

Our solution is to use drilled-head stainless steel socket head cap screws and aircraft safety wire to prevent the bolts from loosening. We think this methodology has better functionality and looks better. I will say that aviation maintenance technicians who regularly work with safety wire do it quickly and beautifully. Unfortunately, my efforts are neither fast nor beautiful. It’s more like mediocre and slow, to be honest. (I think we’ll go back and retroactively do this on Thundercat. It won’t take long, but it will be a way of me poking The Gorilla (Scott), and that alone will be worth it. As WBJ1 would say "MUAHAHAHA!”)

In an earlier post I discussed transmission pans, and our plan had been to install an Allison shallow pan on P-Z, but the cost of a bent steel tube (no longer available from Allison) was beyond outrageous. I had forgotten that when we fabricated the removable pusher frame for the blade, we had built it to fit around the deep transmission pan.

I did find a more reasonably priced bent tube on ebay. (85% less than the price from Weller Truck Parts!) We installed it along with a factory Allison shallow pan on Thundercat. That freed up the pan we (Scott) had cut down from a deep pan, which we could now use on P-Z. It's deep in front and doesn’t require the shallow pan tube as does the factory shallow pan. On Thundercat you can’t remove the transmission pan easily. At a minimum you must unbolt the front driveshaft, and even then it’s a bit tricky to maneuver the pan around the welded-on pusher frame to remove it. A factory shallow pan makes it a lot easier. Here’s a pic of the modified pan installed on P-Z.

While it’s true the deep pan does fit, the modified pan can be removed more easily. It’s also true one could unbolt the pusher frame for completely unfettered access to the pan, but that's easier said than done. Yes, it’s bolt-on, but it’s an unwieldy shape, somewhat heavy, and totally unbalanced. Trust me; the modified pan is the way to go.

While I was underneath P-Z I took a photo of the fuel filter/pressure regulator I've mentioned in previous posts. (The piece of split loom hanging down with the wire sticking out is for the yet-to-be-installed parking brake lever’s light switch.)

We also got a new parking brake cable and a new push-pull shifter cable made for us in SLC. The guy who makes these at a company called Six States, John Williams, does a beautiful job. They aren’t cheap, but the quality is excellent, and he’s super easy to work with. In any project you come across some businesses or individuals who are a pleasure to deal with. John is very definitely at the top of that list.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

BSG = biden shit green

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

BSG = biden shit green

That's not very nice!

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

The new fuel injectors arrived and we swapped them out painlessly. We started the engine and it fired up... and died a few seconds later. Multiple start attempts yielded the same results. I did some Internet research as to possible causes, but decided before I called the fellow who reprogrammed the computer, let’s clear the OBDII codes and try again. So we did that, added more gas to the tank and Scott connected an old air conditioning manifold and gauge setup to the Schraeder valve on the fuel rail to measure the fuel pressure. Tried starting the engine... and it stayed running. The fuel pressure was fine.

If you are (understandably) wondering about the air conditioning manifold setup, all I can say is Scott is a very clever guy - and as the saying goes "necessity is the mother of invention”. An air conditioning system has a low pressure side and a high pressure side. In an automotive setup, the low pressure side has a port with a Schraeder valve that one connects their gauges to. So a completely different system than a fuel rail, but the same connection methodology. I never would have thought of using ac gauges…NEVER. But Scott? You bet.

But of course solving one issue has a way of segueing into another. With the engine running, one would naturally expect that the tachometer would display engine RPM. Except that wasn’t the case. Universal type tachometers normally come with a selector switch for the number of cylinders; 4, 6, or 8, and one selects the correct one based on their installation. Easy, right? Well, not so fast. The engine in P-Z is a GM LS series 8 cylinder engine, so you’d think you’d select the 8 cylinder configuration. But NO. The tachometer depends on pulses per revolution and one needs to select the 4 cylinder setup, which supposedly provides the correct number of pulses per revolution. But our tach wasn’t showing anything….

More Internet research showed this is a common problem on LS engine swaps when trying to use an analog tachometer. In layman’s terms, the engines computer sends a signal to the tachometer, but the signal strength is too weak for the tachometer to read properly. One needs to boost that signal strength. Not counting the tachometer’s lighting circuitry, there are three wires connecting to the tachometer, a ground wire, a 12 volt power wire and the signal wire, in our case from the computer (in a non computer-controlled engine the signal comes from the ignition coil). The solution to our non-functioning tachometer is to tap into the 12 volt power wire, and run a jumper wire from that with a 1/4 watt, 1,000 ohm resistor spliced into it, and connect that to the signal wire. The added power makes the tachometer function properly. Scott added some “piggyback style” spade connectors to the terminals on the tachometer, and installed the resistor between them. So after adding the resistor and starting the engine... the tach is showing idle at 250 rpm. Well that’s no good….

When we decided to install all new gauges on P-Z, we went with VDO Vision Black series gauges. VDO uses what are called DIP switches to select the cylinder configuration. There are three very small switches and they have two positions each which are positioned differently based on the number of cylinders. Still seems relatively simple, right? Well, I found this information on, of all places (the SnowTrac mafia will love this) a VW forum, but apparently on some VDO tachometers the switches are installed upside down by the factory. Of course accessing these tiny switches can’t be done while laying on your back under the dash and working overhead, so the tach gets removed for any changes and Scott went through this multiple times in getting the DIP switch settings correct for P-Z. It's more than fair to say it was a PITA.

Here’s a pic of the back side of the tachometer with the lights removed. You can see Scott has marked the wire connections and added the resistor. The DIP switches are in the black rectangle on the upper left of the tachometer.

I’m a firm believer in the Mark Twain quote “Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you’re a fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt”. But I also find it disingenuous when people never seem to make a mistake, and the example I use is Norm Abram on the PBS show The New Yankee Workshop. Super talented guy, but he never screws up? Yeah, sure…. So what follows is a tale of buffoonery on my part.

When I bought this Tucker, it had a second battery and a starter solenoid to separate the batteries. The installation was very poorly executed (Tucker factory?) and it was something that we were going to remove and re-do properly before we sold the machine. At the time, the engine and alternator were the stock Chrysler components. I bought a new battery isolator from Amazon knowing we’d need it later on in the machine’s refurbishment process.

Now fast forward about four years and we had installed a GM LS series engine. Those engines have a different electrical system with the voltage regulator built into the alternator as compared to the stock Chrysler system. When we were reassembling P-Z I remembered the brand new battery isolator sitting patiently in a box, and Scott and I installed it without a second thought. We thought all was good, and kept going with other reassembly tasks. The tachometer DIP switch escapade I described above required starting the engine to compare tachometer readings with engine RPM several times. But at one point the battery didn’t have enough power to start the engine. Huh? We then determined the alternator was not charging the battery. Of course the usual “If it’s not one thing, it’s another” feelings were shared, and we tried to figure out what was wrong. The diagnostic process eventually suggested the battery isolator may be the problem…and it took quite a while, but I remembered that I had originally bought the battery isolator for a non-GM charging system. The correct isolators have a fourth connection on the isolator for a wire from the ignition switch. So a new battery isolator is on the way and we’ll have to add that wire to make it work properly. I feel like Homer Simpson in one of his "Doh moments"….

Here’s a pic of the correct style isolator. Note the fourth (smaller) connection pole for the wire from the ignition switch.

We also had tp plumb the vacuum line from the engine to the newly installed Allison soft shift modulator. Yup, more plated steel brake line from NAPA and two rubber elbows. Fortunately we were able to make the line using one 60” length of 1/4” brake line. The time is spent figuring out the angles and distances and trial fits to ensure the line looks good and fits properly. Once the first one is made, it would be quick work to make duplicates, but this is a one and done project.

Here’s a pic of the line to the vacuum modulator. It’s just behind the alternator, but you can see it connecting to the rubber 90º elbow and then bending down and then bent again to parallel the fuel rail enroute to the modulator on the transmission.

Among other things we did:

- Scott welded a threaded bung into the air intake's aluminum tube for a hose connection to the right cylinder head’s PCV system.

- We installed a piece of carpet on the shelf between the windshield and the dash panel, along with the defroster ducts and new defroster hose.

- We added ground wires to the frame for both front and rear E-Lockers and completed their respective wiring with Weatherpack connectors.

Bottom line: we checked off several more tasks on the road to project completion.

 

[sno-drifter]

I marvel at the expertise, knowledge, and dedication put into your builds. Way above my skill set. I'm resolved to DI diesels with Zero electronics. If it works for me, why change. We had a situation this winter when one machine lost battery power due to a broken wire, not found until days later. We pulled the battery from the DID, left it run while exchanging batteries. Mechanical shut off on DID, so no power required. By the time we got back the low battery was all charged up. I guess we could have towed the DID cat to get both going if it had a 12V shut off solenoid. (Mechanical transmission). Simple cat for simple mind.

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

I marvel at the expertise, knowledge, and dedication put into your builds. Way above my skill set.

Same here, Sno-Drifter!

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Just a little note.

The Allen cap screws with the safety wire is a great looking job.....
Another good way to keep fasteners from coming loose.....BLUE LOCTITE
Easy to remove....but will not shake loose on it's own.

Just wash out the internal threads in the gearbox or ??? and the bolt threads with Red label BRAKEKLEEN ...Blow dry and then add a bit of the Blue Loctite to the bolt thread....Tighten and good to go.

DO NOT USE RED LOCTITE.......That stuff requires a bunch of heat to get it to loosen up.....Many small fasteners will break off before the loctite give up...

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I marvel at the expertise, knowledge, and dedication put into your builds. Way above my skill set. I'm resolved to DI diesels with Zero electronics. If it works for me, why change. We had a situation this winter when one machine lost battery power due to a broken wire, not found until days later. We pulled the battery from the DID, left it run while exchanging batteries. Mechanical shut off on DID, so no power required. By the time we got back the low battery was all charged up. I guess we could have towed the DID cat to get both going if it had a 12V shut off solenoid. (Mechanical transmission). Simple cat for simple mind.

I acknowledge that the electronics can do so many cool things and do them well.....But I also know that the micro electronic magic boxes can fail and leave the rig DEAD.

The idea of a simple solution is not at all a bad idea ....especially when heading into the back country where AAA is not available to come help.

I thought about going with a fuel injection on my project.....Then decided that a good old simple carburetor was pretty bullet proof out in the bush.....

The old "Points and condenser" ignition are a tad too archaic for even my old school disposition.....The GM HEI is pretty bomb proof and can be fixed on the trail with minimal bother and only requires carrying a module and a spare distributor cap/coil assembly.

For long outback trips into the back country.....Having a complete distributor in the tool box would certainly not be a bad thing.

We can't carry enough parts to rebuild the cat out on the trail, but the vulnerable little electronics can fail and leave ya dead.

A mechanically injected diesel is a sweet deal.....In a pinch even the 12 volt fuel solenoid can be mickymoused to activate it.

Certainly nothing wrong with simple......

I digress ....

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Thanks for all the kind words. I sincerely appreciate it, and I pass them along to Scott, which brings a smile to his face. The reality is, and PP would agree, Scott and I are just a couple of knuckleheads who enjoy vehicular projects.

For deep backcountry usage, certainly simplicity has value when things go awry. And the more technologically complex the apparatus, the more difficult it may be to repair.

A case in point:

Last fall I had a conversation with a former neighbor of WBJ1’s who was potentially interested in buying the 1544. He shortly thereafter spent a whole lot more money and bought a used PistenBully Scout. A few weeks ago that neighbor notified the other land owners in that off-the-grid neighborhood the Pisten Bully had broken down and was partially blocking the access road. They thought it had an electrical problem….

If you can’t fix it yourself, or with a buddy, I’m not sure who you’d call. I think the closest PB dealership may be Peterson Equipment in Logan, UT. Probably at least a nine hour drive, and they’d have to bring some type of machine to transport the mechanic, along with tools, parts, etc. to get to the broken PB. If they needed more parts they would presumably have them overnighted at great expense. I think PB uses engines from different manufacturers in their different snowcat models and IIRC the Scout has a John Deere engine. If the problem with the disabled Scout is engine related, perhaps the much closer John Deere dealership could help?

Scott and I are big fans of fuel injection. While it’s true there are aftermarket fuel injection systems made for retrofitting older engines, we prefer a complete factory built system. The LS series GM engines came out in 1998 and they have been installed in many different GM vehicles, and both the engines and fuel injection systems have been refined along the way. Several companies make conversion wiring harnesses that supposedly require only a four wire hookup to integrate the engine into a vehicle. Of course the computer must be reprogrammed to eliminate the VATS (Vehicle Anti Theft System) and usually the second set of oxygen sensors. One can also discuss with the programmer any other specific changes you want. But all of these things have been done by others, and with the Internet, there is a lot of information out there - good and bad.

Pretty much by definition a carburetor is optimized for one elevation, and atmospheric conditions can effect the carburetor’s performance as well. But a modern computerized engine continuously monitors multiple sensors and makes adjustments to optimize engine performance. The conversion harnesses come with an OBDII port so one can plug in a simple scan tool to read the trouble codes and then one can address the issues. Yes, that may require a trip to an auto parts store - where it’s likely they’ll have the parts in stock. I do think modern engines are incredibly reliable and they have better performance, economy and longevity than their older carburetor equipped ancestors.
When I bought the Tucker now known as Putri-Zilla, it had the stock Chrysler 318 Industrial engine, and it didn't run well. We gave it a tune up and...it didn't run well. Diving in deeper, we found two bent push rods and two damaged/broken rocker arms. A call to our friendly Dodge Dealer's part department (a contradiction in terms) and the parts guy said his books didn't go back that far and he probably couldn't get new rocker arms anyway. Wow! I'll bet any GM dealership could get you whatever part you wanted for an L94 engine!

Others will probably disagree, but we think the sweet spot for a snowcat powertrain is using a modern computer-controlled engine along with a non-computerized transmission. That said, if you want a Diesel engine instead, there is a compelling case for a simple, mechanically injected engine without the complexity of the electronics.

Snowy, I too think Loctite makes some great products, and their blue thread locker would very likely be more than adequate. Most of my working life has revolved around aviation and safety wire is the accepted standard for fastener retention. As I said a few posts above, the people who do it frequently do a beautiful job, and make it look easy. It’s a skill I don’t have, but want to, and doing it on P-Z was an opportunity to get some practice.

 

[YamaDooPolCat]

Any update on how the transplant is going?

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Any update on how the transplant is going?

Good question!

We work on snowcat and other projects after-hours at Scott’s shop. This past summer he was absolutely inundated with work at his business and several jobs were large in scope, had deadlines, and he was behind… bigly. He was working nights, Saturdays and sometimes Sundays to complete these jobs. All of our projects were put on hold. Snowzilla hasn’t been touched since a custom exhaust system was installed in July (which turned out very well, BTW).

Scott’s crunch ended very recently, and we just started making a change to TUG’s (DMC 1450) electrical system. The stock setup was a fuse block with old-school automotive cylindrical glass fuses. Those fuses can be hard to find, and the amperage rating can be extremely difficult to read. We’re in the process of changing the fuse block to one that uses more modern blade-style fuses. We’re also replacing the electric fan with a mechanical fan and also fabricating a new fan shroud. Then we'll make sure everything works properly before listing it for sale.

The next phase of Snowzilla will be installing all new hydraulic hoses for the steering system and six-way blade.

Sadly, The Infamous WBJ1 no longer has his off the grid cabin in Colorado, so there is not a pressing need to complete it.

 

[Cidertom]

All that green pain t to waste.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

All that green pain t to waste.

sadly, the green paint lives forever, and so do the green jokes...

 

[YamaDooPolCat]

Your project is very inspiring, so I'm thinking I should do that.
Is your back up camera installed? I'm interested in what size of view screen you used and where you mounted it?
Also, what did you use to clean the glue off the panels when you pulled off the factory interior?

 

[YamaDooPolCat]

".... We considered that over-revving the engine may have caused the damage, but decided against that. Here's why:

Chrysler Industrial engines were used in numerous applications, one fairly common one would be to power an irrigation pump in a location with no electricity nearby. In that installation the engine would be left unattended and running at a fairly high, constant RPM for fairly long periods. If the pump broke, or there was some other type of malfunction, it's possible the load would be removed from the engine, and with lots of throttle and no load, the engine would over-rev and damage/destroy itself. To preclude that Chrysler equipped their industrial engines (at least the 318s I've seen) with King Seely brand velocity governors installed under the carburetor.

This engine had the governor installed when I bought it. It's certainly possible someone removed it and then put it back, but we thought that somewhat unlikely..."

What is a velocity governor? I had the carb off the 318 in my Tucker and noticed this odd looking bottom in the intake. Is this the velocity governor part?

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Looking at the length of your carburetor mounting studs, I'd say a previous owner removed the governor. They are about 1 1/2" tall and longer studs are required.

I don't have a good photo of a velocity governor, but here's a link to one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-2-b...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

That one looks pretty much identical to the ones installed on Tuckers I've bought.

The backup camera display is mounted roughly where an interior rear view mirror would be mounted, Scott made a bracket that attaches to the Tucker and the display attaches to that. The buttons are upside down but the display presentation is right side up. I’d say it’s about a 6” diagonal size. The Infamous WBJ1 bought it and had it shipped to us. He could probably provide more information.

As far as removing the carpeting from the machine, we just pulled it off, and helped the process with a wide putty knife. Where there was carpet/glue residue we used a Fein oscillating multimaster tool with a scraper blade. That worked pretty well. Everything then went to the sandblaster and that process cleaned off anything else.

It’s interesting to see your six-way valve setup, and the way Tucker plumbed the hydraulic lines as compared to the way they did it a few years later. In 1980 the valve was moved back several inches and the hydraulic hoses run through a big oblong hole more or less directly underneath where the lines connect with the valve on the right side. Then Tucker globbed in a bunch of goo to sort-of seal up some of the excess size of the hole. Messy? Absolutely. Professional? Absolutely not.

This isn’t a great pic, but hopefully you’ll get the idea.

For our Thundercat project we just couldn’t follow Tucker’s mediocre-at-best approach. We ditched the flexible hydraulic hoses and custom bent all new rigid hydraulic lines for the six-way valve (and most everything else). The new floor we made has rubber grommets sealing the hydraulic lines, and then we built an enclosure for the valve that’s lined with sound deadening mat. I don’t necessarily suggest that route - as it took an incredible amount of time. But for two certifiable Knuckleheads, it seemed like a good idea….

 

[YamaDooPolCat]

I never much like the 90 degree fittings going into the valve block. They seem to be either too tight when cranking them in, or too loose. I'm going to see about straight nipples into the body and then 90 degree hose ends with the nut. That way everything can get the same snug, and maybe less oil sweating out of the valve body. But lots to do before then!

By the way, did your Allison install have side mounts to the frame, or did you have to install engine side mounts? The 727 doesn't have side mounts, so I'm going to have to arrest the torque with the engine mounts somehow.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Both Allison AT545s we’ve installed were bought used and came with Allison to GM adapter housings and cast side mounts that bolt to the transmission. We cut off the side mounts Tucker welded to the frame, cleaned them up a bit, and re welded them to the frame in a slightly different location for our installation.

Here’s a pic of the Allison AT545 mounted.

For the L94 engine we used the GM factory motor mounts with rubber isolators and Scott fabricated short towers that were welded to the Tucker frame and aligned with the GM mounts.

A pic of the factory motor mounts. You can also see the cast adapter housing (painted black) between the engine and transmission and the cast side mounts (also painted black) that bolt to the transmission with two bolts.

Lastly, a pic of the towers Scott made in position and before being welded to the Tucker frame.

 

[YamaDooPolCat]

Nice work!

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Well, after a very long delay, and other projects all at good stopping points, it’s time to get back to work on Putri-Zilla. Last July the exhaust system was installed by a really competent exhaust shop, and they did a very nice job. P-Z can now move under it’s own power, but without an operational steering system that movement is straight ahead or straight behind. It’s time for hydraulics!

A standard Tucker, meaning one with only a hydraulic steering system, and no front blade or auxiliary hydraulics for a grooming accessory, has seven hydraulic lines. But P-Z, with a front six-way blade, a dual cross port relief valve in the steering circuit, and a remote mounted cooler has a bunch more (I think 24 in total). We have to plumb the entire system, and depending on how it’s done, that can add up to some significant money in short order. There are individual hydraulic hoses with lengths of hose and crimped on fittings on each end. Of course that’s in addition to the threaded hydraulic fittings on the pump, valves, cylinders, etc. And with a blade, there are also quick disconnect fittings. In terms of hydraulic manufacturers, the big US names are Parker, Gates, Aeroquip and Weatherhead. I think they all make quality products and they aren’t the slightest bit ashamed at charging very handsomely for their various components. WBJ1 is in the restaurant biz, so it’s fair to think of those companies as Five Star restaurants. Scott and I try hard to save him money when we can. (And now he has a wedding to pay for!) Budget-wise, we’ll be going to a hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant... and ordering the cheapest items on their menu.

There are no-name brands, undoubtedly made in China, that sell similar components for a small fraction of the companies I mentioned above. That’s pretty much what we’ll use. I talked with a local company in SLC that makes custom hydraulic hoses and asked “If I brought my own hose and fittings, could I pay you to crimp them”? Of course I expected a solid “NO”, but surprisingly the guy said “Sure, we charge $3.00 a crimp”. That will save WBJ1 a significant sum… maybe enough for a wedding cake…maybe. (I can see it now… a green wedding cake. Ugh!)

So, I ordered Vevor brand hose from Amazon and some no-name crimp on fittings from another company. A hundred feet of hose and 20 crimp on fittings with female swivel ends and I think we’re in this just under $275. Our game plan is to use hoses with female swivel ends, and threaded fittings with fixed male ends. Part of this is simplicity, and part is ease of installation, or replacement if necessary at some point in the future.

Our six-way valve was bought used and was original equipment in a small John Deere bulldozer. Deere plumbed the valve with dual hoses at four of the six high pressure supply ports that go to hydraulic cylinders. This makes sense, and it’s clever, but it also means a lot more hose and fittings. Imagine a blade with two hydraulic cylinders used for the angle function of the blade. You would run one line to the extend side of one cylinder and the other line to the retract side of the opposing cylinder. You are effectively doubling the amount of hydraulic force applied. But moving dirt takes a lot more force than a blade used to groom snow. Note, I didn’t say “plow snow”. A Tucker blade is NOT a heavy duty snow plow. It’s a lighter duty blade for grooming, and simply doesn’t need that much hydraulic force.

Deere used dual port O-ring boss fittings at the valve for the hydraulic hoses, and we’re using new single port O-ring boss fittings at the valve. O-ring boss fittings are a great concept. Many fittings use a male pipe thread which is tapered. If it’s an elbow, where the outlet must be positioned at a certain angle, as you’re installing the fitting and the outlet lines up with where you want it, you have to ask “Can I go one more full turn”? If yes, go for it. But if not, you have to stop there and then hope there’s no leak. But an O-ring boss fitting has a straight thread with a nut, a flat washer and an O-ring. Thread the fitting in most of the way and orient the outlet port where you want it. Then, simply hold the fitting while tightening the nut (which then compresses the flat washer on the O-ring). Brilliant! (I’m picturing the ingenious person that invented these things sitting on a beach on some tropical island sipping Mai-Tais while depositing his royalty checks.)

With the basic plan laid out, it’s time to start installing parts and spending more of WBJ1’s money. As he himself would say "MUAHAHAHA”!

I’ve previously bought threaded fittings online, and that’s a good option if you know EXACTLY what you need. I out together an order for items I was positive would work, but the shipping charges were obscene. And, when your plumbing from ground zero it’s quite common to revise your plan as you find a particular fitting won’t work, and you must use another type. If bought online you’ll be paying return shipping and you might get hit with a re-stocking fee, too. So, I bought the first batch (of undoubtedly many) locally.

Last night we started installing some threaded fittings (sure enough - our plan needs revision) and we mounted the six way valve, marked the locations for holes in the floor for some of the hoses, removed the valve, drilled the holes and remounted the valve to check our handiwork. We chose to drill individual holes for each hose as opposed to one big, long one. The individual holes will have a tighter fit around the hoses. We’ll use a sealant around each hose and we think the finished product will look good. As you can see in the photo below, the valve is mounted above the rubber floor material, and the hoses will run through it. If there is a hydraulic fluid leak, it should clean up nicely. You can also see the O-ring boss fittings and there are some crimp on hose fittings threaded onto the O-ring boss fittings. They were installed to help in getting the location of the holes exactly where they need to be. One last point: We're installing the valve and hydraulic hoses after the finished floor material has been installed. Think for a moment how difficult it would be to do that and get a good fit after the valve and hoses had been installed.

Rather than drill individual holes, Tucker cut one large one and they gobbed in a bunch of a goo-like substance as a sealant to fill the various gaps. They also used an indoor-outdoor carpet on the floor. Any hydraulic leak never really cleaned up as the fluid soaked into the carpet.

I’ll make a trip to the hydraulic shop for some more fittings, and we’ll drill the remaining holes tonight. Hideous green paint or not, it does feel good to be back working on P-Z.

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

This is exciting!! Maybe it’ll be ready in time for the wedding next Spring!! Maybe we will be the first to drag some strings tied to aluminum cans behind a Sno Cat up the mountain for a wedding!!! And maybe there will be more than just one green SnoCat there!!!!

 

[sno-drifter]

I use the same JD six-way Tee handle valve bank. My choice are Areoquip fittings. I can cut the hose to what I need but the idea is to just carry lengths of hose the sizes used and be able to replace the hose anytime it fails. Side benefit, don't pay someone to make them up= upgrade from hole in the wall to Mc Donalds.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Sno-Drifter,

I am stunned by how inexpensively the hydraulic system plumbing is coming together on P-Z. Genuinely. And in the economy brought to us by the Biden administration with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi’s too enthusiastic cooperation?

I honestly can’t remember the last time I was pleasantly surprised at something being less expensive than anticipated. Scott and I were talking about the cost of custom made hydraulic hoses as he recently (as-in within two weeks or so) had a custom hose made up for a machine in his shop. I think he said it cost $120, and the hose was roughly 8’ long. The longest hose being installed in P-Z is about 9', and it has crimped-on female JIC swivel fittings on both ends. No joke, the all-in cost is about $30. That’s roughly what you'd pay for high quality heater hose... without hose clamps. And this is 1/2” diameter hydraulic hose with two steel braids rated at 4,000 PSI.

I’m dumbfounded….

But in fairness, none of it has been tested. (Undoubtedly, The Infamous WBJ1 will want us to use green colored hydraulic fluid…. (Yes, it’s available.)) Maybe once we fire up the engine with the hydraulic pump operating, the system will fail in spectacular fashion... spraying Scott and I with a shower of green hydraulic fluid. We’d look like a pair of Leprechaun knuckleheads - and that would make The Infamous WBJ1 positively gleeful!

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

Hydraulic system plumbing is basically complete on the snowcat, though we still need to purchase and plumb the hydraulic cylinders on the blade.

If you have an existing hose to duplicate, it’s easy; you know the length and the type of fittings to use. But starting from scratch the hard part is getting the hose length right. What we did was use an old length of garden hose with one end fitting cut off. We thread the crimp-on fittings into their locations and route the garden hose along the path we want the hydraulic hose to run, and push the hose on one of the fittings. Then mark the length where it needs to be cut. We use an angle grinder and cut off wheel to cut through the two layers of braided steel in the hose, and cut off a length from the roll corresponding to the specified length per the garden hose.

We drilled the two remaining holes in the floor, mounted the six way valve (hopefully for the last time) and we cut all the lengths of hydraulic hose. The smart way to do this would of course be to cut the long ones first; if you mistakenly cut one too short, it can be used for a different location requiring a shorter hose. That method minimizes waste, but Noooooo, we chose to cut the easy ones first, and those are some of the shorter lengths. We also purchased the rest of the threaded fittings for the snowcat and all the remaining crimp-on fittings for both the snowcat and the blade’s hydraulics.

The hydraulic shop that I’ve been buying threaded fittings from is the one that did the crimping for us. They needed the crimp specifications in order to crimp the fittings properly. “Specifications” means the location of the crimp on the fitting, and the outside diameter of the fitting after the crimping process. I called the company I bought the fittings from, and they were very helpful in supplying the information.

After we got all the hoses installed, we wanted them to look neat and tidy. They also needed to be secured to the machine in places. My first Tucker had a factory blade and Tucker’s efforts at these tasks seemed "Bubba-esq” - and that’s being unkind to Bubba! Really, there was no effort (IMHO) to even make it appear that someone cared. Well, we do care, and we want it to look good and be functional.

I mentioned this need to one of the guys at the hydraulic supplier we used and he suggested a product called Rhino Wrap. It’s made of ballistic nylon and one wraps it around a single hose, or in our case, multiple hoses, and then it velcros together along the edge. It’'s not in stock at the company’s SLC location, but he had previously worked at their Williston, ND branch and it was used extensively in the oil fields there. That's was a definite option, but we eventually decided on a spiral hose wrap made of black HDPE plastic. We think the wrap looks good, holds the hoses together securely, and offers protection for the hoses as well.

We set up the hydraulic pump in P-Z in the same configuration as Thundercat's. I recently posted a thread on that topic called Tucker Hydraulics: Thinking "Outside the Box”. We think a significant contributor to Thundercat’s heat issues are due to the exhaust setup, and P-Z’s exhaust routing should be much more favorable as far as radiated heat under the hood. But, based on the positive results from that experiment, WBJ1 and I decided to remove the hydraulic pump from P-Z and downsize the pump’s volumetric output somewhat. Making that change before the system has been filled with hydraulic fluid is significantly easier and less messy. We added Fire Sleeve on the hoses where they are fairly close to the front of the right side exhaust manifold.

The spiral wrap was definitely a pain to install with the hoses in place. Scott and I were both on creepers under the machine trying to feed the wrap through various obstacles as we slowly got it installed. Should WBJ1, or someone else, ever need to change a hose, we’re certain they'll be cussing us. Bigly! We suspect after a short time they’ll decide to cut the hose wrap off, and even that won’t be easy. It’s not that we intentionally made it difficult, it’s just the downside of the hose wrap. We bought two sizes for different locations. The smaller size finally arrived from Amazon and that will be installed soon.

We had been moving P-Z in and out of Scott’s shop with a forklift and a short nylon strap under the pintle hitch at the rear. But after getting all the hydraulic hoses installed and the steering cylinder back in position it was time to fill the system with hydraulic fluid. (Due to Thundercat’s hydraulic fluid heat issues, we used Amsoil synthetic hydraulic fluid rather than mineral oil-based fluid. The downside is cost. It’s about $20 more per gallon, and on P-Z we decided to use the cheaper stuff.)

Filling the system was the final act before the system was operational and with no seats installed, Scott put a stool on the floor and P-Z moved under its own power for the first time in several years! That’s a big milestone, and it felt good to reach it. Of course once outside it was dark and Scott turned on the full array of P-Z’s LED lights. OMG, it’s ridiculous how much light is on that machine! The other day I read the brightest light on earth seen from space is a light on a hotel in Las Vegas. I think WBJ1 is trying to give them a run for their money…. (I’m almost not kidding.)

Here are some pics.

Hydraulic system plumbing at the tank. Note the dual filters. All fluid returned to the reservoir is filtered. The longer-than-stock filters contain substantially more filter media.

Plumbing at the orbitrol. The hoses have to be installed in sequence to access the fittings with a wrench.

Fire Sleeve on the hoses near the front of right side exhaust manifold.

Spiral hose wrap where the hoses converge from their individual routings to the quick disconnect fittings.

Spiral hose wrap and hoses secured to truss frame. The hose bundle could not be mounted higher because that space was occupied by the transmission’s vacuum modulator. (We will add a second zip-tie for redundancy.)

The lights from the front. If you’re asking “Who in their right mind needs this much light"? I share your quandary. But we talking about WBJ1 after all....

And the rear.

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

I can't love this enough!! Can't believe it drove around under it's own power!! Hoping you guys finish it in time for some on the snow testing before all the snow is gone! Lucky it's been a huge snow year!