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The EV thread

mbsieg

awful member
PLATINUM FF Supporter
I figured we should quit Hijacking Bob's thread, I'll try to post a few things about my Ford lightning. If there are EV related questions, ask away. I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

2022 Ford lightning Lariat ER. I paid sticker added a few accessories, tri-fold hard tonneau cover. Rear mud flaps, sprayin bed liner, and the Ford carpet for the frunk...
Bought in December of 2022.

August 2023 have just over 12,000 mi on it. It's been a good truck with very few issues. The initial over the air update failed. Once the dealer installed it I have had no update issues. Had an issue with the charge Port door was replaced under warranty August of 23.
Otherwise, so far it's been a solid truck.
 
I've heard nightmare stories about the cost of battery replacement in the hybrids. 3k for the battery and you'd need it at 75k miles.
That was when I was car shopping 6 years ago. So I went with the gasser instead of hybrid.

How long do you expect your battery(s) to last and how much will it cost to replace them?
 
The batteries carry an 8-year 100,000 mi warranty. Unless there's a catastrophic failure, you can replace individual cells in most batteries. There are already rebuilders and refurbishers companies for Tesla and other brands. As the demand increases I'm sure there will be more and more companies doing this business.
 
And I would guess prices would go down as more companies enter the market.
But still. Cost of new batteries at 100k could eat up all the fuel savings or a good portion of it.
If you decide to sell at 50 or 75k miles you'd get out of replacement costs but trade in or resell value would have to be impacted.
 
I've heard nightmare stories about the cost of battery replacement in the hybrids. 3k for the battery and you'd need it at 75k miles.
That was when I was car shopping 6 years ago. So I went with the gasser instead of hybrid.

How long do you expect your battery(s) to last and how much will it cost to replace them?
FWIW literally every 'horror story' about batteries that I have read about, in both EV and PHEV has been related to vehicles that sit, plugged in and rarely driven.

Newer Hybrids seem to have no real issues with the batteries, most carry 100,000 mile warranties (give or take) on the batteries. Tesla makes the headlines when the batteries catch fire or there is some sort of cascade failure, but I think those are mostly outliers. Not saying that pure EV cars/suvs are the right answer for many, range anxiety is a major issue, charge times are a major issue for many people.

I'm pretty open minded about EV, PHEV and Hybrids.

Honestly I think that Toyota's idea of the Hybrid being the 'everyman's' car is correct and the gubmint would do the world a favor by pushing HYBRIDS over ELECTRIC VEHICLES because Hybrids don't tax our electric grid and demand more power centralized generation. For a lower price than an EV or PHEV, often $6000 to $10,000 less, a Hybrid delivers high fuel economy AND good performance, with ZERO issues about range anxiety.

All that said, I'm looking at doing a few things over the next year. Not sure I will do any of them. But I'm considering solar panels on the roof and that would allow me to charge a sitting car without relying on some future leftist gubmint official to give me permission to drive my own car if I had an electric vehicle, and we all know that gasoline, while still refillable from oil, is simply being regulated out of existence, perhaps after my life expires, but it will be gone in the USA, much to the detriment of society.

But solar on the roof of your house, a battery on the wall of your garage, and you can drive your EV without the need to use a central power station.
 
Winter time use, that's my biggest concern.
How do they do parked outside for a week at -50, then jump in it and go for a drive?
Cabin well heated?
Snow up to the grill deep drives?

Those are all very real world conditions for me.

And I hate being cold, so the cabin heater better blast out hot air.


Is traction control able to be turned off in the lightning so it can chew down to ground with traction when need be?
 
Winter time use, that's my biggest concern.
How do they do parked outside for a week at -50, then jump in it and go for a drive?
Cabin well heated?
Snow up to the grill deep drives?

Those are all very real world conditions for me.

And I hate being cold, so the cabin heater better blast out hot air.


Is traction control able to be turned off in the lightning so it can chew down to ground with traction when need be?
-50 holy crap!! Where do you live? Lol. The warm-up time is actually a lot faster than a ice vehicle. The lightning has a resistive heater. So heat is almost instantaneous. There is no warming up of the engine per se.
I did a test on one of the coldest nights of the winter. I don't remember the exact percentages. It's in one of the Facebook groups that I frequent. But something like 14 hours at -40 used 30% of the battery. If you really want the exact, I could probably go find it in my history.
Just to compare, I did the same test with my F-150 EcoBoost. It burned just about 1 gallon an hour.
You will have no trouble staying warm in the cab of a Ford lightning.
Mine has the all season tires, so bumper. Deep snow. I really don't have a good test. I would assume it would be comparable to a ice F-150, maybe do a little bit better because it weighs a little more.
traction on icy roads was awesome. I think it's because of the 50/50 weight distribution. Way better than my F-150 EcoBoost.
Yes you can turn off the traction control. I do not have real world experience getting down and dirty with it though.
 
Winter time use, that's my biggest concern.
How do they do parked outside for a week at -50, then jump in it and go for a drive?
Cabin well heated?
Snow up to the grill deep drives?

Those are all very real world conditions for me.

And I hate being cold, so the cabin heater better blast out hot air.


Is traction control able to be turned off in the lightning so it can chew down to ground with traction when need be?
Winter time range. I want to add that. It is definitely less below 50° when you get down to zero to 10° 15% less. And below zero temperatures 25% less range then a sunny 65° day.
 
Winter time use, that's my biggest concern.
How do they do parked outside for a week at -50, then jump in it and go for a drive?
Cabin well heated?
Snow up to the grill deep drives?

Those are all very real world conditions for me.

And I hate being cold, so the cabin heater better blast out hot air.


Is traction control able to be turned off in the lightning so it can chew down to ground with traction when need be?
I'll add a little bit more. In cold weather when not plugged in, the battery does not drop percentage. The ability to get the energy out of the battery drops. That is the reason they heat up the lithium battery pack.
I have a 70° heated garage so mine lives the pampered life. Winter time temperatures do not affect me near as much when I'm able to park in the garage. If you do have to park outside it is best to leave it plugged in which in turn keeps the battery warm.
 
Just curious about your experience with towing anything with the lightning. I'm not worried about power. I'm worried about range. How far can you go on a charge pulling say.....a 5000 lb trailer?
 
So towing is something I have not messed around a lot with. We did a lot of snowmobileing last winter. I used the lightning exclusively. Four place open trailer, three sometimes four sleds. I have never weighed it so I'm kind of guessing on weight 4000+-. So it is a 50 mile trip one way to where we park in the big horn mountains. It's about a 5,000 ft elevation gain in the last 15 Mi. Leaving home with a 90% battery depending on whether we left the truck heater on when we rode or not, I would end up at home at the end of the day with a 40 to 45% battery. Now Keep in mind there was a lot of regeneration happening coming back down the mountain.
Weight does not seem to affect the range near as much as wind resistance. The same as my eco boost.

I've pulled my buddies dump trailer full of shingles when we redid our house. I've pulled his camper on short trips 20 miles or so. But not enough to get a good range test.
But from what I have seen others a larger bumper hitch camper. You can expect around 1 mi per kilowatt.
If you have something to pull a lot, don't buy an EV yet.

When I pulled the snowmobile trailer with my EcoBoost we got 9 to 10 miles per gallon, which seemed pretty normal for that truck. As soon as you hooked anything behind it.
 
For what it's worth, here is a chart showing electric rates by state. And this is average per state as many states have multiple providers your actual rates could be a little higher or lower. But it gives a good indication of the costs.


My problem with EVs and PHEVs is the added UPFRONT cost. Using pretty simple math, it takes a lot to justify the added price.

Just pulled up 3 brands of cars, Toyota, Hyundai and Kia. Just pulled up some simple graphics. You can see the price difference between HYBRID and PLUG IN HYBRID and sometimes PURE ELECTRIC if the same model is available in all 3 options. This is not a perfect 'apple to apple' comparison as most auto makers add options and features to increase the creature comforts of PHEV trim levels, but still, going from a Hybrid to a PHEV is a roughly $7000 upgrade. Now when I 'build and price' about 2/3rds of that increase vanishes as I option up the Hybrid, but there is still probably a solid $2500-$3000 price bump to go to a PHEV. And then add the cost of a wall charger and electrician ot install it (figure another $1000 minimum) so we are at a $4000 premium. The NIRO Hybrid is $26,500, the same in PHEV is $33,800 and the pure EV version is $39,600.


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If I can drive 50% of my miles with a PHEV running pure electric, it will take quite a few miles of driving to "save" that $4000 price differential premium. Assuming $4 per gallon for gas, and assuming 32 miles per gallon, the "break even point" to reach $4000 is 32,000 miles of "free electric driving"

Assuming I drive 15,000 miles per year, and assuming 7500 of those miles are electric, it would take about 4.5 years to "break even" with a PHEV if electricity was free.

But that assumes electricity is free. Assuming .15 per kw, cost should be about 8 cents per mile. So the 32,000 miles of free driving actually cost me $2560 in electricity, but the if I was getting 32mpg with a gas engine that 32,000 miles would cost me (at 32mpg/$4.00 per gallon) $4000. So the savings is only $1460 when you account for the cost of the free driving on electricity.

All of a sudden, spending $4000 is not sounding so good because now we are looking at a break even payback period that is a lot longer than 4.5 years. It is a lot closer to 10 years just to break even. Assuming $4/gallon gasoline.

Someone want to challenge or confirm my math? I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong!

* 50% of my driving in electric mode is just a guess. But I in a rural area and often am on rural highways, the gas engines seem to kick in at highway speeds or under acceleration trying to get to highway speeds, so my guess is that even if only driving to one of the nearby towns, where a PHEV could easily manage the round trip on electric only, the short hops on rural highways would cause the internal combustion engine to fire up a couple times. So just using logic, our normal around home driving would very likely be a split of electric motor whirring and internal combustions banging. If we lived closer to suburbia the electric power alone might make up 65% of our miles, making payback quicker. So situation makes a big difference.
 
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-50 holy crap!! Where do you live? Lol. The warm-up time is actually a lot faster than a ice vehicle. The lightning has a resistive heater. So heat is almost instantaneous. There is no warming up of the engine per se.
I did a test on one of the coldest nights of the winter. I don't remember the exact percentages. It's in one of the Facebook groups that I frequent. But something like 14 hours at -40 used 30% of the battery. If you really want the exact, I could probably go find it in my history.
Just to compare, I did the same test with my F-150 EcoBoost. It burned just about 1 gallon an hour.
You will have no trouble staying warm in the cab of a Ford lightning.
Mine has the all season tires, so bumper. Deep snow. I really don't have a good test. I would assume it would be comparable to a ice F-150, maybe do a little bit better because it weighs a little more.
traction on icy roads was awesome. I think it's because of the 50/50 weight distribution. Way better than my F-150 EcoBoost.
Yes you can turn off the traction control. I do not have real world experience getting down and dirty with it though.


Thank you for this information.
Very helpful.
 
For what it's worth, here is a chart showing electric rates by state. And this is average per state as many states have multiple providers your actual rates could be a little higher or lower. But it gives a good indication of the costs.


My problem with EVs and PHEVs is the added UPFRONT cost. Using pretty simple math, it takes a lot to justify the added price.

Just pulled up 3 brands of cars, Toyota, Hyundai and Kia. Just pulled up some simple graphics. You can see the price difference between HYBRID and PLUG IN HYBRID and sometimes PURE ELECTRIC if the same model is available in all 3 options. This is not a perfect 'apple to apple' comparison as most auto makers add options and features to increase the creature comforts of PHEV trim levels, but still, going from a Hybrid to a PHEV is a roughly $7000 upgrade. Now when I 'build and price' about 2/3rds of that increase vanishes as I option up the Hybrid, but there is still probably a solid $2500-$3000 price bump to go to a PHEV. And then add the cost of a wall charger and electrician ot install it (figure another $1000 minimum) so we are at a $4000 premium. The NIRO Hybrid is $26,500, the same in PHEV is $33,800 and the pure EV version is $39,600.


View attachment 167220View attachment 167221View attachment 167222

If I can drive 50% of my miles with a PHEV running pure electric, it will take quite a few miles of driving to "save" that $4000 price differential premium. Assuming $4 per gallon for gas, and assuming 32 miles per gallon, the "break even point" to reach $4000 is 32,000 miles of "free electric driving"

Assuming I drive 15,000 miles per year, and assuming 7500 of those miles are electric, it would take about 4.5 years to "break even" with a PHEV if electricity was free.

But that assumes electricity is free. Assuming .15 per kw, cost should be about 8 cents per mile. So the 32,000 miles of free driving actually cost me $2560 in electricity, but the if I was getting 32mpg with a gas engine that 32,000 miles would cost me (at 32mpg/$4.00 per gallon) $4000. So the savings is only $1460 when you account for the cost of the free driving on electricity.

All of a sudden, spending $4000 is not sounding so good because now we are looking at a break even payback period that is a lot longer than 4.5 years. It is a lot closer to 10 years just to break even. Assuming $4/gallon gasoline.

Someone want to challenge or confirm my math? I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong!

* 50% of my driving in electric mode is just a guess. But I in a rural area and often am on rural highways, the gas engines seem to kick in at highway speeds or under acceleration trying to get to highway speeds, so my guess is that even if only driving to one of the nearby towns, where a PHEV could easily manage the round trip on electric only, the short hops on rural highways would cause the internal combustion engine to fire up a couple times. So just using logic, our normal around home driving would very likely be a split of electric motor whirring and internal combustions banging. If we lived closer to suburbia the electric power alone might make up 65% of our miles, making payback quicker. So situation makes a big difference.
That's partially why. In the end, I ended up going fully electric.
One of the other reasons I did not like the idea of having a electric and ice powertrain. More stuff to go wrong.

Ultimately, in an EV there are a lot less systems and moving parts to have issues with.

Will be interesting in a few years to see how the higher mileage EVs last. You are already seeing Teslas with two to 300,000 mi on them.

So I just built a Ford lightning and a Ford F-150 lariat, tried to get the same options on them. Some are not available back and forth. Both trucks ended up high $70,000. Now add in the $7,500 tax rebate .

I believe your numbers so I'm not going to go dig into them. But the price of EVs are coming down. As with anything new you pay to play
 
Oh sorry I forgot to answer your question regarding where I live. Central BC Canada.
I'd be pretty wary of an EV up there. Depending on how rural you are. Actually doesn't look as bad as I thought.
 

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That's partially why. In the end, I ended up going fully electric.
One of the other reasons I did not like the idea of having a electric and ice powertrain. More stuff to go wrong.

Ultimately, in an EV there are a lot less systems and moving parts to have issues with.

Will be interesting in a few years to see how the higher mileage EVs last. You are already seeing Teslas with two to 300,000 mi on them.

So I just built a Ford lightning and a Ford F-150 lariat, tried to get the same options on them. Some are not available back and forth. Both trucks ended up high $70,000. Now add in the $7,500 tax rebate .

I believe your numbers so I'm not going to go dig into them. But the price of EVs are coming down. As with anything new you pay to play

Is that with the larger battery?

I feel the larger battery would be essential, and is still borderline at being large enough for some of us.
 
Is that with the larger battery?

I feel the larger battery would be essential, and is still borderline at being large enough for some of us.
100% agree with you on that. I'm not sure that a larger than the lightning is worth it though. You start adding a lot of weight. I think you might reach a point of diminishing return. I will be really curious how the Silverado does with the 200 kilowatt hour battery. Those are very heavy pickups. The Hummer EV has a huge battery but weighs 9,000 lb. My lightning weighs 6,600 lb.

More charging stops but less time at the stops seems to actually be faster than trying to cram as much in the battery as you can. Charging speed above 80% drops dramatically.
 
Winter time use, that's my biggest concern.
How do they do parked outside for a week at -50, then jump in it and go for a drive?
Cabin well heated?
Snow up to the grill deep drives?

Those are all very real world conditions for me.

And I hate being cold, so the cabin heater better blast out hot air.


Is traction control able to be turned off in the lightning so it can chew down to ground with traction when need be?
I would think the heater or the ac would drop the battery down much faster than just driving down the road. In weather like yours, I would think an electric car would be good for about three blocks.
 
I'd be pretty wary of an EV up there. Depending on how rural you are. Actually doesn't look as bad as I thought.
You should take a look at the locations that shows a battery charger. It showed one in a town that I live near. If it is there they have hidden it very well.
 
You should take a look at the locations that shows a battery charger. It showed one in a town that I live near. If it is there they have hidden it very well.
What's the name of the town? I can click on it and tell you what it is.
 
You should take a look at the locations that shows a battery charger. It showed one in a town that I live near. If it is there they have hidden it very well.
The dark orange ones are DC fast chargers. The green ones are ac
 
That's partially why. In the end, I ended up going fully electric.
One of the other reasons I did not like the idea of having a electric and ice powertrain. More stuff to go wrong.

Ultimately, in an EV there are a lot less systems and moving parts to have issues with.

Will be interesting in a few years to see how the higher mileage EVs last. You are already seeing Teslas with two to 300,000 mi on them.

So I just built a Ford lightning and a Ford F-150 lariat, tried to get the same options on them. Some are not available back and forth. Both trucks ended up high $70,000. Now add in the $7,500 tax rebate .

I believe your numbers so I'm not going to go dig into them. But the price of EVs are coming down. As with anything new you pay to play
As close to Apples-to-Apples as I could get, I went to True Car comparisons website.

Tesla Model 3 versus Toyota Crown

Adjusted the trim levels so the Model 3 was a bit over $48,000, the Crown was a bit under $47,000

The Model 3 has a smaller interior with similar but somewhat less features. No leather seats, fewer stereo speakers, etc. compared to the Crown. But fairly similar otherwise, we can argue about subjective luxury, trim levels, etc but I'd say similar enough. Back seat legroom/overall room a few inches less in the Tesla, so it's a smaller vehicle, shorter wheelbase, but has a bigger trunk. To my mind, the back seat space is a problem, but I have a 3 year old foster son who sits in a car-seat and those car-seats take up so much room it makes anyone else in the back uncomfortable. But that is MY problem. So the 2 cars are pretty similar otherwise.

Assume you can get a Tesla home charger and install if for $1500.

Price difference between the 2 vehicles (plus charger/install) is roughly $3500

The way I see it, the break even is about 6.5+ years in the future for the Tesla, adding in oil changes, etc for the Crown, assuming $4 per gallon and 40+mpg with the Crown and using .15kw for the electric rate.
 
As close to Apples-to-Apples as I could get, I went to True Car comparisons website.

Tesla Model 3 versus Toyota Crown

Adjusted the trim levels so the Model 3 was a bit over $48,000, the Crown was a bit under $47,000

The Model 3 has a smaller interior with similar but somewhat less features. No leather seats, fewer stereo speakers, etc. compared to the Crown. But fairly similar otherwise, we can argue about subjective luxury, trim levels, etc but I'd say similar enough. Back seat legroom/overall room a few inches less in the Tesla, so it's a smaller vehicle, shorter wheelbase, but has a bigger trunk. To my mind, the back seat space is a problem, but I have a 3 year old foster son who sits in a car-seat and those car-seats take up so much room it makes anyone else in the back uncomfortable. But that is MY problem. So the 2 cars are pretty similar otherwise.

Assume you can get a Tesla home charger and install if for $1500.

Price difference between the 2 vehicles (plus charger/install) is roughly $3500

The way I see it, the break even is about 6.5+ years in the future for the Tesla, adding in oil changes, etc for the Crown, assuming $4 per gallon and 40+mpg with the Crown and using .15kw for the electric rate.
Don't forget the 7500 tax rebate. I get it, but if it's available I'm going to take advantage of it.

I am watching your thread also. We are looking for a different vehicle for my wife, she currently drives the 2020 F-150 but I know she would like a smaller vehicle. I've been looking at Teslas but the lack of updates they all just look like the same car. Is one of my problems. The Ford mache interest me. But I see they have high voltage contactor problems. Looks like it's only an issue for people that drive the vehicle hard.
I'm trying to stay with the vehicles that source the lithium for their batteries from the US. Have not made a decision yet, but we are looking and driving.
 
So in another as close to Apples-to-Apples as I can get. . .

Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid Limited -versus- Hyundai Santa Fe PHEV Limited (Plug-in Hybrid)

The trim on the seats is slightly upgraded in the PHEV because that is the only way it comes, and that seat trim is not available on the standard Hybrid Limited. But otherwise these builds are exactly the same. I do not believe there is any other luxury or convenience feature difference between the 2 vehicles.

Hybrid = $43,415
PHEV = $49,665

Price difference = $6250

Even if I 'adjust' the cost for the slightly nicer seats in the PHEV by setting aside $1000 for the slightly nicer leather, so that the 'difference' is only $5250, I'm not going to do the math on this, at 62 years old, I honestly don't think I'd live long enough to see the "break even" point on the PHEV version. So the question is, if I wanted this vehicle, do I like the nicer leather seats enough to pay over $6K for softer cow skin?
 
So in another as close to Apples-to-Apples as I can get. . .

Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid Limited -versus- Hyundai Santa Fe PHEV Limited (Plug-in Hybrid)

The trim on the seats is slightly upgraded in the PHEV because that is the only way it comes, and that seat trim is not available on the standard Hybrid Limited. But otherwise these builds are exactly the same. I do not believe there is any other luxury or convenience feature difference between the 2 vehicles.

Hybrid = $43,415
PHEV = $49,665

Price difference = $6250

Even if I 'adjust' the cost for the slightly nicer seats in the PHEV by setting aside $1000 for the slightly nicer leather, so that the 'difference' is only $5250, I'm not going to do the math on this, at 62 years old, I honestly don't think I'd live long enough to see the "break even" point on the PHEV version. So the question is, if I wanted this vehicle, do I like the nicer leather seats enough to pay over $6K for softer cow skin?
I definitely agree with what you're saying. I don't think seats are worth five grand in my book!
 
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