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The EV thread

. . . I tracked our driving habits for most of a year. our "real world" shows we require a plug in EV hybrid with 100 mile electric range. that car could replace our ICE - electric every day and 'gas on the exception road trips'
it is patently insane to buy one car for local use and one car for extended use - well, unless you're a billionaire.....
a 100 mile PHEV does not exist yet. stuff like a 17 mile electric range? that' a joke.
I think this pretty much hits it on the head for many people.

PHEVs seem to have roughly 25-30 miles before the engine kicks in.

During fencing season 30 miles might get me to the high school where I coach? Won't get me home. So 50% EV, 50% gas assuming no other stops, and I often go from the high school to the fencing club and then to home, so more likely 35% EV and 65% gas. Trips to the city to visit our daughter, again, a PHEV wouldn't get us there, so 30% EV, 70% gas. Trips to Notre Dame to visit Dasha, 15% EV, 85% gas. Trips to Purdue where I coach a couple days a week, again 15% EV, 85% gas.

Everyone of those could be done in a PURE EV.

Literally charging from 20% or 30% to 100% pretty much daily based on what I can figure out. An EV would fit until we did something different, which we also tend to do fairly often. But an EV would certainly fit the majority of my driving needs. But not necessarily my hauling capacity needs, because 1/2 of those trips to Purdue I'm using the pickup truck for its cargo capacity. So the EV would sit in the garage and save me nothing. And the Hybrid Hyundai Santa Fe would actually haul both the gear and the people on those trips. But the EV Hyundai Ionic 5 is too small to haul the gear.

Not yet. But solid state or some future battery, with faster charging or longer range? Doubling the number of rapid chargers? Economies of scale reducing prices substantially?

5 years from now, maybe. I hope it all works. But I'd also hope that it makes economic sense rather than gubmint mandate, destruction of the oil industry, etc etc etc

Honestly HYDROGEN is probably the answer for the LONG TERM solution,
 
a hydrogen fuel cell has incredible technical potential.
and . . . incredible "danger" - there is absolutely zero anything that compares with a hydrogen "explosion"

not even a Pinto can hope to compare . . . .

neat idea, technology is simply 'not there yet'
 
No one ever had to call a tow truck when there car ran out of gas in front of a gas station either until now.. All this EV talk is great, it may work for some, an electric golf cart may work for some, But for the masses its not ready yet and I'm not convinced it ever will. Hydrogen has a lot more promise and is a more realistic alternative to fossil fuels, but its not ready yet either.
LOL That's just piss Poor planning. The same people that run out of electric are the same people that run out of gas. Something. Luckily I have never experienced gas or electric.

And I agree 100% it is not ready for the masses yet. There are way too many people with not enough brain cells. As I've stated numerous times you have to have a good head on your shoulders to drive an EV.
I'm definitely on the fence about hydrogen. For one. I can't produce it at home. And that is one of the most enjoyed positions I have.
I wake up every morning with a full battery. And there is 100 % something to say about that. It's like you have a oil refinery that you don't have to pay for the fuel.
 
No one ever had to call a tow truck when there car ran out of gas in front of a gas station either until now.. All this EV talk is great, it may work for some, an electric golf cart may work for some, But for the masses its not ready yet and I'm not convinced it ever will. Hydrogen has a lot more promise and is a more realistic alternative to fossil fuels, but its not ready yet either.
I have run out of gas a few times. I don't enjoy it but I can grab my gas can and walk a ways to a gas station. I don't think I would enjoy taking my battery pack out of my electric car and carrying it to the next gas station.
 
"I can't produce it at home."

hold on a sec... pre-1960 I was producing hydrogen and oxygen using 110v electrodes out of D-cells cores, drilled & wired to a 110v "plug"

it was easy to tell the stuff apart - the glass upside down tube with twice the volume was the hydogen, the one with half the volume was the oxygen .

it was lots of fun, big booms from the hydrogen stuff. . . .

the technology is easy, the 'safety' is not . . .
 
Great thread mbsieg!

I am hoping one of our snow cat guys will chime in with his experiences with a used Tesla. He is a rancher/farmer so common sense
comes naturally lol!
My next vehicle might be and EV mainly for daily short trips and errands. Baby steps lol.
 
At this price I could probably be talked into a Fisker Ocean Ultra.


Cabin is a good bit smaller than the Hyundai Santa Fe SUV, closer to the Toyota Crown sedan. Cargo capacity is also closer to the sedan than most SUVs. But it's good looking, 340 mile range would work, and a price tag under $55,000 as I configured it. So still a hefty premium price compared to the Santa Fe, but right in the same ballpark as the Toyota Crown (as per my preferred configuration). But the range is superior, and that goes a long way to justify the cost.

I don't know anyone who's ever owned a Fisker.e I've only seen a few of them on the roadway, never this model, only the prior 4 door sedan, which apparently was a failure. So right out of the gate not a lot of confidence in the brand. But interesting never the less.
 
Hydrogen will be ready when it can take a crash or fire without blowing up and when you can put water in a tank and the vehicle makes its own hydrogen. That would be truly amazing and I would buy that.
 
Great thread mbsieg!

I am hoping one of our snow cat guys will chime in with his experiences with a used Tesla. He is a rancher/farmer so common sense
comes naturally lol!
My next vehicle might be and EV mainly for daily short trips and errands. Baby steps lol.
A farmer buddy of mine in Minnesota is actually one of the reasons I ended up purchasing a lightning. He got one of the first pro models. Standard range battery. At that time when he bought it it was like a 42,000 truck. He absolutely loves the thing. It's their farm run around truck. Some of the loads I've seen him pull are crazy. It's probably never been out of the state. But last I heard he's got like 30,000 mi on the thing. And if it stands up to their abuse, it's pretty robust. You know the farmer type that I am referring to. I doubt it has a straight body panel.
 
I have run out of gas a few times. I don't enjoy it but I can grab my gas can and walk a ways to a gas station. I don't think I would enjoy taking my battery pack out of my electric car and carrying it to the next gas station.
Yeah I think I would just grab my Yamaha generator before I grabbed the battery out of the vehicle. Lol
 
At this price I could probably be talked into a Fisker Ocean Ultra.


Cabin is a good bit smaller than the Hyundai Santa Fe SUV, closer to the Toyota Crown sedan. Cargo capacity is also closer to the sedan than most SUVs. But it's good looking, 340 mile range would work, and a price tag under $55,000 as I configured it. So still a hefty premium price compared to the Santa Fe, but right in the same ballpark as the Toyota Crown (as per my preferred configuration). But the range is superior, and that goes a long way to justify the cost.

I don't know anyone who's ever owned a Fisker.e I've only seen a few of them on the roadway, never this model, only the prior 4 door sedan, which apparently was a failure. So right out of the gate not a lot of confidence in the brand. But interesting never the less.
Thanks for posting that! I just checked out the Alaska. Pretty cool vehicle!

 
Thanks for posting that! I just checked out the Alaska. Pretty cool vehicle!

I looked at the OCEAN online a few months ago.

Checked again today. It appears they have begun shipping, as of last month. Watched several YouTube reviews by real owners and a couple moto-publication reviews. Seems like it could be a very solid option.

As I pointed out, modest price point, still more expensive than some others like the Hyundai Ionic 5, but a lot more range than the Ionic 5. So if range anxiety is an issue, the Fisker Ocean might be the cure? I'm not sure it would work for all my fencing gear but it would certainly work for my mid-week schedule. No clue what the cost of the Fisker home charger is, I couldn't find that on the website. No clue if it is compatible with the Tesla super chargers or what it is compatible with, but I presume it is compatible enough. Still, given the range it offers, it would probably work for most people who can charge at home with 220volt AC overnight.
 
Looks like it is 400 volt battery architecture. That is beginning to be old school already. With 800 and 1,000 volt architecture taking over. It's pretty crazy how fast technology is changing. The higher voltage is allowing faster charging speeds and smaller charging cables. Ease of use.

I'll edit to add. Most EVs currently use 400 volt batteries a lot of the high dollar ones use higher voltage. Just to clarify
 
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In the running, Toyota Crown hybrid sedan, which is a 'raised sedan' and basically the same hight at a crossover, but looks like a sedan. I spec it out at roughly $53K and gets 40mpg.

Fisker Ocean, a 340 mile range EV in compact SUV format. Cool vehicle, lots of tech. Not crazy priced given the EV range, but the Hybrids provide more luxury for less money. Price is close to $60K as I'd spec it out. But even at a high price, not as luxurious, not as much cargo room, and not as feature packed as a similar Hybrid.

Hyundai Ionic 5 EV is slightly larger in the cargo area than the FISKER OCEAN, luxury is subjective so spec'd similarly it offers more storage space but FAR miles LESS range between charges so I would eliminate the Ionic 5 due to range anxiety. It is very similar in price to the Fisker Ocean, has a bit more features, or perhaps different feature set, but again, not close to the range.


Hyundai 2024 Santa Fe Hybrid (to be officially announced in about a day and shocking different than the 2023 variant) all new and totally redesigned SUV. Hybrid version of the Santa Fe. Early official photos and speculative specifications make it look awesome, probably about $50K as I'd spec it out. About 30mpg in Hybrid variant.

Toyota Venza Hybrid crossover "grand patents version of a n adventure SUV." About $48k full loaded and about 40mpg.

Near as I can tell I spend close to $2000 per vehicle on gasoline annually on a vehicle that gets about 30mpg and maybe $1500 if I got the 40mpg Crown or Venza. Probably about $200 annually on oil changes per vehicle. So that would continue with any Hybrid vehicle. And also near as I can figure, an EV would cost me about $700 in electric bills annually after I spend $1500 to $2000 for an AC charger to be acquired and installed. So annual savings is roughly $1000/year, if I pro-rate the cost of the charger + installation.

Is it worth spending and extra $8000* to get an EV to save $1000 per year?

* close apples to apples comparison, factoring in similar trim levels, similar features, etc.
 
In the running, Toyota Crown hybrid sedan, which is a 'raised sedan' and basically the same hight at a crossover, but looks like a sedan. I spec it out at roughly $53K and gets 40mpg.

Fisker Ocean, a 340 mile range EV in compact SUV format. Cool vehicle, lots of tech. Not crazy priced given the EV range, but the Hybrids provide more luxury for less money. Price is close to $60K as I'd spec it out. But even at a high price, not as luxurious, not as much cargo room, and not as feature packed as a similar Hybrid.

Hyundai Ionic 5 EV is slightly larger in the cargo area than the FISKER OCEAN, luxury is subjective so spec'd similarly it offers more storage space but FAR miles LESS range between charges so I would eliminate the Ionic 5 due to range anxiety. It is very similar in price to the Fisker Ocean, has a bit more features, or perhaps different feature set, but again, not close to the range.


Hyundai 2024 Santa Fe Hybrid (to be officially announced in about a day and shocking different than the 2023 variant) all new and totally redesigned SUV. Hybrid version of the Santa Fe. Early official photos and speculative specifications make it look awesome, probably about $50K as I'd spec it out. About 30mpg in Hybrid variant.

Toyota Venza Hybrid crossover "grand patents version of a n adventure SUV." About $48k full loaded and about 40mpg.

Near as I can tell I spend close to $2000 per vehicle on gasoline annually on a vehicle that gets about 30mpg and maybe $1500 if I got the 40mpg Crown or Venza. Probably about $200 annually on oil changes per vehicle. So that would continue with any Hybrid vehicle. And also near as I can figure, an EV would cost me about $700 in electric bills annually after I spend $1500 to $2000 for an AC charger to be acquired and installed. So annual savings is roughly $1000/year, if I pro-rate the cost of the charger + installation.

Is it worth spending and extra $8000* to get an EV to save $1000 per year?

* close apples to apples comparison, factoring in similar trim levels, similar features, etc.
What dealers do you have close to you that you trust/like?
For me, I think the fisker will be out for a year if not two. New/startup company, no dealers/service centers for warranty work yet.
Do you have a 240 volt outlet in your garage? Do you have enough electric panel to have a 240 volt outlet/EVSE (charger) in your garage ? Things to ponder.
If you do have a nema 14-50 outlet in your garage you would be good for quite some time.
You may look at your electricity providers website and see if they have a EV time of use plan. There is a chance overnight you could get low or even free electricity to charge it. There seems to be more and more of these plans available.
If we had a crystal ball and knew the price of gas versus electric in 5 years, it would help make a decision also.
 
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What dealers do you have close to you that you trust/like?
For me, I think the fisker will be out for a year if not two. New/startup company, no dealers/service centers for warranty work yet.
Do you have a 240 volt outlet in your garage? Do you have enough electric panel to have a 240 volt outlet/EVSE (charger) in your garage ? Things to ponder.
If you do have a nema 14-50 outlet in your garage you would be good for quite some time.
You may look at your electricity providers website and see if they have a EV time of use plan. There is a chance overnight you could get low or even free electricity to charge it. There seems to be more and more of these plans available.
If we had a crystal ball and knew the price of gas versus electric in 5 years, it would help make a decision also.
I have power available at the box, but I'd need to have an electrician run the circuit to the garage for any of the EV or PHEV options, figuring the cost of that, including the associated EV plug is going to run me $2000

Multiple Toyota dealers in the area are all good. Hyundai dealers closest to me are both owned by a family I don't like, but the 3rd closest dealer is the one I'd use and it is not all that far away.

Sort of falls in the choice that I can't make. IF there was a Toyota Venza PHEV, or a Toyota Crown PHEV, that was priced only a couple grand above the Venza or Crown hybrid, and they got about 40-ish miles of EV per charge, then those would likely be my first choices in vehicles. 40 miles would get my wife to groceries and back, with a enough room to spare to stop at a couple other places and never require the ICE. And there are a lot of errands that are within that 40 mile range. Most of the PHEVs have a 25-30 mile range, with means the ICE engine would be needed just for a simple multi-destination errand run. So just that little difference makes a world of difference in actual use. Toyota has a RAV 4 PRIME, which is a PHEV, that gets 40 miles EV, but I'm not a fan of the little RAV 4. Just a little too little of what I want. Same size as the Venza, but not quite as nicely featured, and I'm 60+ years old so creature comforts are more important to me than 'rugged looks'

All that said, since I can't get what I want, the next best option seems to be the least economical, largest, and what appears to be the most fully featured vehicle of the bunch and that is the Hyundai Santa Fe. The outgoing 2023 is nicer than the Venza in every way, more spacious than the Venza, but ugly and LESS economical. The incoming 2023 Santa Fe is strikingly good looking, appears to be nicer than the Venza, Crown and the Fisker Ocean in terms of features and luxury, but again, appears that it will lack in fuel economy with an expected 30mpg while the Venza/Crown are at 40mpg and the Ocean is at 340 miles per charge. For right about $50k, 30mpg and a lot of luxury, comfort and a slightly larger size seems like a good trade off because the Fisker Ocean will end up at $60-$62k with a wall charger and delivery fees. Again, $10,000 up front will pay for a lot of gasoline, even at $4+ per gallon.

Staring at $4 per gallon for gas, and probably $5.5 by the time our gubmint is done fucking us over with their green energy initiatives, makes looking at EV more viable, not convinced the tech is here yet for what I want but it is getting very close. So maybe this vehicle will be a hybrid and the pick up truck, a couple years down the road, will be traded in on an EV?
 
not convinced the tech is here yet for what I want but it is getting very close.
The tech is a moving target changing quarterly or faster in some cases. There will never be the "best" time to jump in and get your feet wet. I believe this technology trend is in fact an exponential curve. Once we get to 20% adoption of EV's the rate will increase rapidly.
And, there is a clear leader with a several year, if not a decade lead all others here on OUR soil.
Just remember how fast tools went cordless. This change in tools was about convenience. In the case of the EV is all about cost per mile, and cleaner air.
Forget the Global warming bull sh1t.
 
The tech is a moving target changing quarterly or faster in some cases. There will never be the "best" time to jump in and get your feet wet. I believe this technology trend is in fact an exponential curve. Once we get to 20% adoption it will increase rapidly.
And there is a clear leader with a several year, if not a decade lead all others here on OUR soil.
Just remember how fast tools went cordless. This change in tools was about convenience. In the case of the EV is all about cost per mile, and cleaner air.
Forget the Global warming bull sh1t.
Agree with you 100%. My purchase was not because of Obamanomics, or sleepy Joe. It was all to keep pennies in my pocketbook. And so far I have been pleasantly surprised.
 
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