Kioti CK30 resale value?

[Melensdad]

I don't know about you guys, but I look at tractors for sale on Ebay to see the resale value of equipment. I regularly check for Kioti, Kubota, NH, JD, Mahindra, Cub Cadet CUTs, etc.

I look for 1 or 2 year old machines.

Here is a CK30, with FEL and a Howse rotary cutter. It has ZERO bids. Minimum bid is $13,000. It is a 2004 with 120 hours.

I'm actually surprised there are no takers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kioti-CK30-FEL-Brush-hog-4x4-Like-New_W0QQitemZ7566093912QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Dargo]

Hey, there's no reserve so you're in luck! I'm fairly certain that I've seen that one on before, but I may be mistaken. Maybe you ought to tell some of the blowhards on TBN about it and see how "absolutely positive" they are that Keeoti tractors have "every bit as much" of a resale value as Kubota. Maybe they'll offer the poor guy $15k so he doesn't take such a hard beating.

 

[Melensdad]

Well I'm digging around a bit more. A Mahindra 3510 with FEL is listed and has no takers at $11,000. It only has 100 hours but is a 2002 model. So it gets roughly 33 hours a year!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Mahindra-3510-utility-tractor-w-loader_W0QQitemZ7564879733QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is pretty amazing given what some folks claim about resale values. I was offered my purchase price for what was a 2 year old New Holland early this year. So I could sell my 2 year old tractor and walk away with 100% of what it cost me. Dargo has said he's made money on at least one or two of his tractors selling them for more than he paid for them. What is the real deal with tractor values and which brands really do have good trade in values and which will cause you to lose your butt if you don't keep it for a long time?

My observation is that in my area, JD, Kubota and New Holland hold their value if they are maintained. But it sure looks like some of the minor brands take it in the shorts on resale. The 2 links I provided above are very typical of what I have seen. Perhaps Ebay is just a bad place to sell tractors? BTW in addition to 'throw way' pricing on Kioti & Mahindra, I see the same on larger Cub Cadets, as well as brands like Long. I don't see enough M-F tractors to know how they fare.

Anyone else watch this stuff?



BTW I'm only curious about newer/modern tractors. It is common to make money on restorations and collector tractors, but the ones I'm curious about are the current machines of common brand names.

 

[messickfarmequ]

I have started running about half our good looking compacts on eBay when I have time. More often than not they sell at or above what we where asking for them on the lot. I'd consider eBay to be a rather accurate source for information. Lawn equipment is even more skewed than compacts when it comes to your major manufacturers holding value while others suffer. Its a real issue if you ever sell a machine. Much more so than any other product I can think of? This is not so much the case with cars is it?

 

[Junkman]

Last week a used Curtis soft cab for a Kubota BX sold for $1650. You can buy a new one in the box for $1795 with a warranty and all the hardware. What are the chances that a used one is going to have all the little pieces and nuts and bolts to assemble it? I can't believe that someone would buy used to save $150, but it happened. One thing is for certain, eBay buyers don't know the true value of many things that they purchase.

 

[Doc]

Even if they know the value, it is much like a live auction. They get caught up in the bidding, and by golly, that other SOB is not going to out bid them!

 

[Melensdad]

I have started running about half our good looking compacts on eBay when I have time. More often than not they sell at or above what we where asking for them on the lot. I'd consider eBay to be a rather accurate source for information.

If they are selling on Ebay for at/above what you think they should sell for, then doesn't that mean that Ebay inflates the value? That is essentailly what Junkman pointed out in his post about the used Curtis Cab selling for nearly the same price as new. And Junk & Doc, I do tend to agree that many people don't know the value of goods when they bid. I regularly see various items sell for more than they cost in stores. Combine that with what Neil wrote about tractors selling at/above what he would get on his lot and you'd think that Ebay would be a great place to sell a Mahindra or a Kioti (or any other brand) for absolute top dollar. So with less than 1 day to go on the Mahindra listing and less than 2 days on the Kioti listing, why are there no bids?

Lawn equipment is even more skewed than compacts when it comes to your major manufacturers holding value while others suffer. Its a real issue if you ever sell a machine.

Neil, being a dealer, why is it that themajor name brand (big 3) tractors seem to hold their value while the minor brands seem to languish at resale? Is it all 'in the name' or do you see other differences as well?

 

[Doc]

Not my line of business for sure ...but I'll take a guess:
Implied reliability. Buying used is always a gamble. Buying a brand that has a good / dependable reputation give you better odds of getting a reliable lawn and garden tractor. Since buying used has no guarantees, this somewhat lessens the chance of getting someone elses problem.

Okay Neil ...what do you think?

 

[Dargo]

If they are selling on Ebay for at/above what you think they should sell for, then doesn't that mean that Ebay inflates the value?

I have honestly "made money" when I sold 3 tractors as used that I'd purchased new. One of those was on eBay. It was a JD 4600 tractor that I'd put just over 400 hours on, and I sold it on eBay for an even $400 profit over what I'd paid for the tractor; including the original sales tax!

 

[Melensdad]

I have honestly "made money" when I sold 3 tractors as used that I'd purchased new. One of those was on eBay. It was a JD 4600 tractor that I'd put just over 400 hours on, and I sold it on eBay for an even $400 profit over what I'd paid for the tractor; including the original sales tax!

I've done the same with antique tractors but never with a modern one. But if that is the rule, that eBay drives the price up, then why do we not see a bidding war for the Mahindra, Kioti, or larger 7000/8000 series Cub Cadet compact tractors on eBay? Heck it seems like (at least those 3 brands) plummet in value.

I'm really curious about the new Case/Farmall tractors since they have only been rebranding them Farmalls for the past couple years I wonder if they fall in value too or if they maintain their value do to the Farmall badge?

I'd also like to see some information on Massey Ferguson but as new models of that brand seems to be about as rare as hens teeth it is hard to get a good reading on the new Massey's resale values.

 

[Dargo]

Heck it seems like (at least those 3 brands) plummet in value.

Have you not ever read any posts on TBN?! The very owners of those products have said time and time again that your above assumption is completely wrong. They always claim that they will pay within a few hundred dollars of new for a used tractor like they own. I'd say that most all owners of these brands only use TBN, and they don't know about eBay. Don't tell them about eBay either! Can you imagine how upset some would be to find out that they could have bought their same tractor for half price if they would have just shopped on eBay anytime in the last few years. Your life could be in danger if you upset 90% of the people who own those products. The other 10% are guys who may actually keep their tractor for 40 years (like 99% of them claim), and therefore, not be effected by resale.

Honestly, I'd have to say that those brands only represent a tenth of one percent of the tractors in my area. With that being the case, an owner of them would have to travel quite a distance for any service and parts, or buy their parts via mail order. The tractors may well be of decent quality, but I just cannot possibly consider one with the (let's be honest) huge resale hit and no service available. That is beside the fact that I did drive to a dealer and I did thoroughly test drive and examine one offering. It really was not up to the standards of the big three; by a fair margin. I really don't know what to think of people who claim that they would pay more for their minor brand tractor than one from the big three. I'm sure most people think the same thing about those guys as I do. I easily understand the guys who bought them when they were several thousand dollars less than a major brand. With that not being the case now, (large price difference) I have to wonder about the continued viability of some of those brands.

 

[Melensdad]

Dargo, I hate to say it, but when it comes to anyting other than a Big 3 brand, what you say, and what I say, over on TBN really is ignored. It might be fact, but it is not accepted as fact. Let's be honest, objective discussion is simply not allowed over there when various brands are compared.

But I find the whole thing curious because when you compare tractors to cars the Big 3 tractors actually hold value, cars fall in value. While some AUTO brands hold value better than others, they pretty much all fall 20% to 30% when you drive them off the dealer's lot. But at least the Big 3 tractor brands seem to hold onto their original value (or at least 90% of it) over the course of the first 2 or even 3 years.

Seems odd. ALL car brands drop in value. SOME tractor brands drop in value.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

You guys are giving this Mahindra owner a serious inferiority complex!

I suspect location also has something to do with it. However, the resale value of the second tier tractors is never going to be as good as the established guys. I think the guys at Kiotibynot have their heads up their asses with some serious "me too" complex. They purchased a good piece of equipment with comparable specs to the big three but the fact remains that the dealer support and market share is just not there.

Bob is right though. The big three tractors really hold their value (if reasonably maintained). The others depreciate at a standard rate.

 

[Melensdad]

You guys are giving this Mahindra owner a serious inferiority complex!

Not intended, but resale value is certainly something that many folks should consider, especially if they rotate tractors every few years.

But I still don't understand the WHY of the issue. WHY do SOME tractors hang onto their value while others do not? WHY do ALL cars go down in value?

• Is it largely the name on the side of the tractor?
• Is it a trust issue associated with that name?
• Is it a prestige issue associated with that name, and if so, then why doesn't Caddy or Lincoln hold value like a John Deere?
• Is it dealer support/dealer network?

I suspect location also has something to do with it. However, the resale value of the second tier tractors is never going to be as good as the established guys . . . The big three tractors really hold their value (if reasonably maintained). The others depreciate at a standard rate.

OK then, why won't the second tier tractors hold value? And is that the deciding factor that determines if it is a first tier or 2nd tier brand? And what is the "standard rate" of depreciation for tractors?

 

[Dargo]

OK then, why won't the second tier tractors hold value? And is that the deciding factor that determines if it is a first tier or 2nd tier brand? And what is the "standard rate" of depreciation for tractors?

I'll take a stab at that. For the most part, any dealership even remotely close to me that sells Kioti or Mahindra is, at best, a very small dealer. Most are sold out of yard barns along the side of the highway. People in general have to view these tractors as being lesser in some way because of this fact. I know that I would not feel comfortable at all investing a considerable amount of money with a dealer whose business is in a yard barn. I really think that Kioti in particular has set their place in my market area as being a "bargain" tractor that is sold from pseudo-dealerships. As I've mentioned before, two of the three dealerships around me have dropped the line. Take that along with the fact that they came to this market as a clone of Kubota, and most people will not have a high regard for their products. I seriously doubt if they will ever be able to shake this concept that the American public now has of them. Therefore, whether deserved or not, I don't ever see them having any respectable resale value.

I may be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

 

[messickfarmequ]

I'd probably say its because of implied reliability and support. Granted, I am sure there are minor brand dealers who can backup the products - but many can't. The only Kioti dealers I have seen have 3-4 tractors (one place had 1 CK20 infront of a farm with a Kioti banner). I sure would not have faith that my internet purchase could be supported by those guys.

I'd also say its because on eBay people are looking for particular products and models. A Cub Cadet lawn tractor thats still current will sell for a 15% discount vs off the showroom floor - however once its a model year old your taking a 50% hit because the model is not saught after. The simple fact is that there are probably 50 people searching for a used Kubota vs 1 or 2 that would even consider a used Kioti.


btw... I used Kioti because thats we often talk about - but it could apply to any brand. (gosh, there is my PC TBN qualifications creaping in again)

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

At one point in time, cars like Mercedes Benz didn't depreciate very much at all. I think auto-makers have started to make cars much more of a commodity item and the prevalence of financing for luxury cars has also added to the much more standardized depreciation.

When I went looking for tractors I started to look for a used big three tractor but as I found out they didn't seem to depreciate. The only reason I considered my Mahindra was that it was actually a Mitsubishi and had been a Cub model before so I figured I could still get parts and service from Cub if I really had to.

Tractors just don't change that much. A big heavy tractor (in good condition) from a few years ago is pretty much the same as a new big heavy tractor coming from a dealer. The fact that I could take a 10 year old JD tractor just about anywhere is certainly worth some extra money. I know with my Mahindra that I may very well be out in the cold in 10 years if something breaks - or at least testing my MacGyver abilities.

If someone isn't very mechanically inclined then they better only consider buying from a big three dealer if they want some form of long term support.

To put my purchase decision in perspective, I was seriously considering getting a Jinma in a box (there is a good importer in Oregon) but I just decided I like the Mahindra quality enough to justify the extra expense. I almost bought a Kubota L2800 or JD 790 but I actually liked the Mahindra better and on paper it was about the equivalent (or better) for a lot less $$.

Also, the Mahindra dealer was by far the nicest guy to deal with and he actually runs a good little operation. Made the decision a little easier. The big three guys in this area weren't really that friendly to this small tractor purchaser.

If I was going to flip this tractor in the next year or two then I would say I made a mistake but since I think I'll be keeping this thing for a while I should come out OK.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

Bob, maybe you are just a big three snob? ;p

Kind of like the big fancy guy in his Mercedes looking down on the guy beside him in the Corvette? Both are nice vehicles but they just appeal to a different class of person.

Just let us little guys think we are as good as you. We all know that you are better!

(Bob - please don't get your panties bunched up. This is post is certified 100% pure flame bait!)

 

[Mith]

As someone who has never owned a new tractor, and is likely never to do so. When I was shopping for a second hand compact I was obviosly looking at the older tractors. I was looking primarily at Kubota.
With kubota I could be guaranteed to get parts easily, the huge dealer netowrk allowed this. I knew I wouldnt get burned for parts at a particular dealer as I could just go to the next. Also the name is tried and tested, I knew Kubota was a good name and make, before I found TBN as far as I was concerned Kioti and Mahrindra were off brands that might not be around next year, heck, I didnt even know if they were Japanese, Chinese, Mongolian? So many uncertainties, I was happier just looking at what I knew. Certainly I expect many second hand buyers might have the lack of knowledge of brands I did, so would be more inclined to stick to the bigger ones.
I too wanted to buy a make that other recognise, if I said I had a Kioti around here in an area where few even have a ride on mower I would be blanked, with a Kubota most people would know what I was on about, respect!
As far as I was concerned I wanted to stick with what is tried and tested, well known and well represented as far a dealerships go.
I also knew that as I was, other people would be doing the same as me. I bought a used Kubota, used it for an hour and sole it for twice what I had bought it for. 4 people were interested in the tractor at the price I asked.

 

[bczoom]

I have a algorythms that I use for determining tractor (and other vehicle) values.

Whenever you buy a new tractor, like a car, automatically depreciate it 10% by driving it off the lot. After that, don't depreciate it by how old it is since inflation will cover age. That 10% may go up or down some based on the brand/model. The big-3 might be a little less.

Now, take the usable engine live expectancy (on a CUT, probably 3000-4000 hours, again depending on the brand). Divide the price of the tractor (new) by those hours.

On a CUT sized tractor, deduct $2.00/hour for wear and tear. This doesn't count routing maintenance (oil changes, battery...) but is for tires, minor body damage, leaks, bends in bucket...

So, let's plug in some numbers. I'm going to use my tractor since I know the numbers. (BTW, mine is 9 years old). My numbers seem to match pretty closely to what I see on e-bay or other sales for my tractor.

New = $12000
- 10% = $1200
$12000/4000 hours (engine life) = $3.00/hour
I have 600 hours so 600 * $3.00 = $1800
600 hours * $2.00 (wear and tear) = $1200

So:
$12000
- $1200 (depreciation)
- $1800 (engine hours)
- $1200 (wear & tear)
= $7800 <<< that's right where it should be.
If you have damage to the machine deduct accordingly.

 

[Melensdad]

Brian, that is one heck of an interesting set of formulas you have. It probably addresses all brands that have reached an age of at least 5 or 6 years old. Newer machines probably won't fit well into that based on my experience, but I'd guess anything older than 5 or 6 years and it sure looks good.

By the way with about 5 hours left in the Mahindra auction, that machine is still sitting on eBay with no bids and a starting price of $11,000. Seems to me a 3-year-old machine with 35hp/shuttle shift/FEL and only 100 hours on the clock is worth $11,000. But it seems like it isn't.

Applying your forumula and assuming (possibly incorrectly) an original price of approximately $14,500 the forumula would look like this:

$14,500
- 1450 (10% depreciation)
- 362 ($3.62 per hour)
- 200 (wear and tear)
= $12,488 value for the Mahindra???

 

[bczoom]

Bob,

The formula can be tweeked for newer tractors as well as by brand. It's one that I came up with for my JD but I don't keep up on other tractor values so I have no idea if the Mahindra is worth $12,488. Think that amount is close or too high?

I wouldn't know what to change.
depreciation percentage?
hour life expectancy?

 

[Melensdad]

Well given what I see on eBay, and using that as my only guide, I would suggest that for a tractor 0 to 3 years old from a Big 3 brand, the depreciation should be 5%, perhaps a bit less. I would also suggest that for a tractor 0 to 3 years old from any other brand, the depreciation should probably be closer to 20%. (assuming in both cases the tractors are garaged, dent free)

Now at roughly 4 to 6 years old I think the depreciation may start to level out a bit. And at 6 years or more, perhaps your formula might be pretty darn accurate.

I'm just guessing, but I would suspect that $14,500 is probably pretty close to the original price of the Mahindra? And since there are no bids with 5 hours left on the auction, one of two things is going on. Either it is not worth the $11,000 asking price, or people are waiting to the last minute to bid in hopes of getting it at that price because if it gets bid up in price it probably is overpriced.

If you go up to your formula and my price assumptions, but substitute a 20% depreciation for the tractor, the calculation would leave the 'value' at $11,038.

Now if my original price is too high, and if the original price was closer to $13,500, then the numbers would be slightly different on the depreciation and the fuel/hour, but correspondingly the value would drop as well. Using your original formular, the 'value' would be $11,588 but using a 20% depreciation rate, the 'value' would drop to $10,238.


----------

Brian, here are the numbers for the 2004 CK30 that is on auction at eBay now. Again, no bids, 1 year old tractor. $15,000 presumed original price (based on prices quoted over on TBN for this machine).

$15,000
- $1500 depreciation (your 10% model)
- $450 ($3.75 per hour)
- $240 wear and tear
= $12,810 value for the Kioti

The auction lists a "Buy It Now" price of $13,750 and a starting bid of $13,000.

Now if we modify the depreciation to 20%, the tractor would be worth about $11,310.

--------


Now compare all that to my 2 year old/190 hour New Holland TC24, with an orignal price of $13,300 (tractor & loader) and a recent offer to buy it for $13,300 (the offer was from one of the dealers I buy tractors/implements from, so I presume they would resell it for more money).

 

[Melensdad]

Well just an update, about 2 hours to go in the Mahindra auction. No bids yet. But there is another very similar Mahindra 3510, 2001 model year, 270 hours, with FEL that has 28 bids on it. It is up to $10,080 and is 20 hours away from ending. So I suspect the price of a Mahindra 3510 is going to end up being right around $10,500 to $11,000. Perhaps the first guy, who started his auction at $11,000 just started it out too high?

Also the Kioti CK30 auction is about 23 hours away from ending, no bids on that one either.

 

[Dargo]

Also the Kioti CK30 auction is about 23 hours away from ending, no bids on that one either.

Now Bob, I keep tellin' ya to not wait until the last minute to place your bid. I know how upset you and the Mrs. will be if there is an internet slow down and you miss getting your bid in at the last minute. You're playing with your happiness here. Bid now. Bid high.

 

[Viking]

Well I'm digging around a bit more. A Mahindra 3510 with FEL is listed and has no takers at $11,000. It only has 100 hours but is a 2002 model. So it gets roughly 33 hours a year!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Mahindra-3510-utility-tractor-w-loader_W0QQitemZ7564879733QQcategoryZ91953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is pretty amazing given what some folks claim about resale values. I was offered my purchase price for what was a 2 year old New Holland early this year. So I could sell my 2 year old tractor and walk away with 100% of what it cost me. Dargo has said he's made money on at least one or two of his tractors selling them for more than he paid for them. What is the real deal with tractor values and which brands really do have good trade in values and which will cause you to lose your butt if you don't keep it for a long time?

My observation is that in my area, JD, Kubota and New Holland hold their value if they are maintained. But it sure looks like some of the minor brands take it in the shorts on resale. The 2 links I provided above are very typical of what I have seen. Perhaps Ebay is just a bad place to sell tractors? BTW in addition to 'throw way' pricing on Kioti & Mahindra, I see the same on larger Cub Cadets, as well as brands like Long. I don't see enough M-F tractors to know how they fare.

Anyone else watch this stuff?



BTW I'm only curious about newer/modern tractors. It is common to make money on restorations and collector tractors, but the ones I'm curious about are the current machines of common brand names.

Bob, the Mahindra just sold for $11,000. This was the only bid and it came in at about 25 seconds left in the auction. Looks like the guy got a pretty good tractor for 11k. Just 100 hrs on it.

 

[v8dave]

Well, this discussion ought to get interesting over at the other place.

Fits right in with this discussion. Wonder how long before the name calling sets in.

 

[messickfarmequ]

Bob, part of the reason that you got such good numbers for your TC24 is because its almost impossible to sell that tractor for under $15000 with a loader. NH has got to get control of that TC23/26 - they are $3000 more than a B7610! That machine has seen more price increases and most of the rest of the line - you made a good investment.

 

[Melensdad]

Bob, part of the reason that you got such good numbers for your TC24 is because its almost impossible to sell that tractor for under $15000 with a loader. NH has got to get control of that TC23/26 - they are $3000 more than a B7610! That machine has seen more price increases and most of the rest of the line - you made a good investment.

Wow, so you are saying I picked a tractor that actually went UP in value? If only I could pick a stock that would do that Seems like every stock I invest in simply does this :


As for the Mahindra selling for $11,000. Seems like if we applied Brian's forumula with a 20% depreciation plus additional discounts for wear & tear and engine use, it would be just about right. I'm curious to see how the formula applies to the CK30 and to future machines I see on eBay.

 

[bczoom]

As for the Mahindra selling for $11,000. Seems like if we applied Brian's forumula with a 20% depreciation plus additional discounts for wear & tear and engine use, it would be just about right. I'm curious to see how the formula applies to the CK30 and to future machines I see on eBay.

Before we apply my formula for a C30, should we take a stab at what we think the options should be?
I think the 2 primary variables are initial depreciation and expected engine hours. Want to take a stab at those?