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Electric School Bus program faltering, inadequate utility power to charge bus fleets!

Melensdad

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
We've all discussed this in the various electric car threads, the lack of power in the grid to actually charge all these vehicles.

Now the government's own report, its inspector general, pretty much sounds the alarm, or maybe just chirps in with a huge reality check. There is not enough power generation capacity to convert and charge the nation's school bus system from gas/diesel to electric.

justthenews.com

Biden’s electric school bus program faces a big hurdle: inadequate utility power

Inspector General's report is the latest to expose the cart-before-horse dynamic in Democrats’ green energy push.
justthenews.com justthenews.com

Full Story at JUST THE NEWS, follow the link above for more ^

Biden’s electric school bus program faces a big hurdle: ​

inadequate utility power​

Inspector General's report is the latest to expose the cart-before-horse dynamic in Democrats’ green energy push.​

​
President Joe Biden’s signature $5 billion program to convert the nation’s school buses to an electric fleet has collided with a formidable challenge: a lack of charging infrastructure and power generation from local utilities.​
​
The Environmental Protection Agency’s internal watchdog issued a report just before the New Year’s holiday that offered the latest evidence of a cart-before-horse dynamic in the Democratic push for green energy.​
​
“The Agency may be unable to effectively manage and achieve the program mission unless local utility companies can meet increasing power supply demands for electric school buses,” the inspector general reported candidly, blaming in prt agency officials for not putting more early emphasis on school districts coordinating with their power companies.​
​
“The EPA provided utility resources during the rebate application process but did not require applicants to contact their utility provider to coordinate potential changes needed to connect charging stations to utilities,” the report noted. “While early coordination with utilities is not a requirement, it could prevent the Agency from achieving its objective to remove older diesel buses and replace them with clean buses.” . . . ​
​
The electric school bus initiative was boosted by Biden’s Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, setting aside $5 billion to grant money to local school district to convert their fleets from gas and diesel. Vice President Kamala Harris took the lead in rolling out the grants last year at a much ballyhooed event. ​
​
“Who doesn’t love a yellow school bus?,” Harris asked in October 2022 as she noted that 95% of the buses that carry school children each day burn diesel.​
​
“What we’re announcing today is a step forward in our nation’s commitment to be a leader on these issues to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, to invest in our economy, to invest in job creation, to invest in building the skills of America’s workforce — all with, as that young leader this morning said to me, a goal of not only saving our children, but, for them, saving our planet,” Harris added.​
​
Nearly 2,000 school districts applied for the first round of rebates from all 50 states and Washington, D.C., leading to an initial round of $1 billion. But since then, school districts around the nation have encountered serious difficulties, from a lack of chargers to maintenance problems, repair parts supplies, and downtime on the new technology, according to a recent analysis in Real Clear Energy.​
​
The EPA Inspector General (IG) warned in its new report the problems could persist if school districts don’t synch better with utility officials and pace purchases to the ability of the power grid to expand.​
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“We identified concerns with delays related to the infrastructure needed to support the bus charger manufacturers and the increased demand on utilities,” the report warned. “Entities we interviewed identified concerns about possible delays with utility providers bringing the necessary power lines and transformers to the school districts for charging the buses.​
​
One utility company told the IG that while it had experience with electric vehicles and buses, “it did not have experience at the projected scale,” the report noted.​
​
Another utility estimated it could take nine months to two years to complete construction, meaning new electric buses could sit idle on lots.​
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“The most common infrastructure upgrades needed to support the bus chargers are transformers, electrical lines, and switch changers. This utility noted that early communication between the companies and school districts, such as prior to applying for funding, is important for the execution of this program,” the report added.​
​
While issue stern warnings, the IG report also had some bright news for proponents of the project. So far, the supply chain needed for batteries and electric components for buses has kept up, the report noted. . . .​
 
I've been saying that all along. All fine and dandy to force everyone to switch to electric vehicles by a certain date when the 90+ year old electric grid up here can't handle the current demand.

I'll give you a layout of the land up here. I live outside of a city of 115000 people. There's currently only about 8 public charging stations aside from one tesla charging station that has about 5 chargers available. Not looking good already, you say? To the west, we have exactly 2 main transportation routes. On either of those routes, the next major center is a 5 hr drive where there's maybe a handful of chargers available. To the east, there's a couple chargers available an hour drive away where the main highway splits in 2. The main highway along lake superior has a grand total of 4 chargers available in a 7 hr stretch of highway. To get to the next biggest biggest center which is a community of roughly 65000 people. On the northern route, there's stretches where there's no gas available for 3+hrs let alone charging stations and even then it's a small gas station with maybe 1 or 2 pumps available and no charging stations.

This is what scares me. Politicians are shoving this whole green agenda down our throats without providing the support and infrastructure needed to maintain their pipe dream.

It's like I'm sitting on the toilet trying to take a crap and the government comes along before I'm about to wipe and they cut off both my hands and replace them with hooks then steal the roll of toilet paper and walk away patting themselves on the back for saving a tree leaving me sitting there in a pile of crap with no way to wipe. But that's OK because they saved a tree.
 
I experienced your lack of gas stations when the Lovely Mrs_Bob and I rode our motorcycles across central and eastern Canada from Thunder Bay to the St Lawrence Seaway. I could not imagine trying to recreate that route driving anything electric. We camped in areas that had no electric at all, and I carried an extra fuel bladder for gas (fortunately didn't need it).

Here in the US, our goal is to have charging stations every 50 miles along the interstate highway system. But that effectively locks people onto the interstates. When we travel for fun we try to take the road less traveled, through the small towns. I use the interstates to get somewhere quick, but when I'm traveling I'm usually thinking the journey is 1/2 the fun, and the interstate is not fun.

I just don't see a way to charge all these new electric school buses and a nation of electric cars in short order. Period.
 
Exactly. You've been up here. You know what I'm talking about. This week alone, there were 3 fatal accidents involving transports and passenger vehicles. Each time, the highway was closed both directions basically cutting the entire country in half for 12 hrs a time leaving everyone stranded on the highway. Now imagine when they open the highway and drop the green flag. 1000s of vehicles waiting in line to charge at a single charging station. That'll be as fun as a bad case of the runs with no toilet in site.

That's with regular gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. How's that going to work out with electric vehicles and batteries potentially catching fire and burning for 36hrs? Last fall, we had a head on collision between two transports that resulted in the only highway across Canada to be shut down for 36hrs.
 
NorthernRedneck said:
I've been saying that all along. All fine and dandy to force everyone to switch to electric vehicles by a certain date when the 90+ year old electric grid up here can't handle the current demand.

I'll give you a layout of the land up here. I live outside of a city of 115000 people. There's currently only about 8 public charging stations aside from one tesla charging station that has about 5 chargers available. Not looking good already, you say? To the west, we have exactly 2 main transportation routes. On either of those routes, the next major center is a 5 hr drive where there's maybe a handful of chargers available. To the east, there's a couple chargers available an hour drive away where the main highway splits in 2. The main highway along lake superior has a grand total of 4 chargers available in a 7 hr stretch of highway. To get to the next biggest biggest center which is a community of roughly 65000 people. On the northern route, there's stretches where there's no gas available for 3+hrs let alone charging stations and even then it's a small gas station with maybe 1 or 2 pumps available and no charging stations.

This is what scares me. Politicians are shoving this whole green agenda down our throats without providing the support and infrastructure needed to maintain their pipe dream.

It's like I'm sitting on the toilet trying to take a crap and the government comes along before I'm about to wipe and they cut off both my hands and replace them with hooks then steal the roll of toilet paper and walk away patting themselves on the back for saving a tree leaving me sitting there in a pile of crap with no way to wipe. But that's OK because they saved a tree.
Click to expand...
Almost like they want to restrict you travel.
 
Melensdad said:
I experienced your lack of gas stations when the Lovely Mrs_Bob and I rode our motorcycles across central and eastern Canada from Thunder Bay to the St Lawrence Seaway. I could not imagine trying to recreate that route driving anything electric. We camped in areas that had no electric at all, and I carried an extra fuel bladder for gas (fortunately didn't need it).

Here in the US, our goal is to have charging stations every 50 miles along the interstate highway system. But that effectively locks people onto the interstates. When we travel for fun we try to take the road less traveled, through the small towns. I use the interstates to get somewhere quick, but when I'm traveling I'm usually thinking the journey is 1/2 the fun, and the interstate is not fun.

I just don't see a way to charge all these new electric school buses and a nation of electric cars in short order. Period.
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Curious about the "50 mile" separation. When the railroads were first built back in the 1860's for our famous "westward expansion," the distance between railway depots was about 50 miles. Just look and any map west of the Mississippi and you will see that towns were established about 50 miles apart.

Odd, and curious, that this new modern technology is limited to the same range, at least in the mindset of current leadership.
At the turn of the century, 1900 AD, the electric car lost the competition against the IC engine. Despite government intervention in the contest, 120 years later, it may well lose again and for the same reasons.

I think we can use EV's in the personal auto fleets of America where they are appropriate. Reducing noise and pollution in our crowded urban areas is beneficial and a serviceable would be a benefit. Let it happen organically.

But going 100% under mandates is insane.
 
tommu56 said:
It dosn't help us that live 30 miles out in the stix.
The people that live in those 15 minute cities think the product's in the market is made by elves in the store at night ;)
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28 years ago I started building our house miles past the suburban sprawl. I honestly figured the sprawl would reach us at 20 years. 8 years past my guess and we are still surrounded (for miles and miles) by fields, woods and streams. It's getting closer, but it is still another decade, or more, away! EVs in these areas are rare!!!
 
school bus routes are a great application for electric motion products. maybe the answer is to have the busses stay out on the route. this could distribute the charging stations to the grid in a manageable manner, not only smart but the busses themselves could act as buffers for the micro grids they are hooked to. I deployed my electric vehicles around our campus for various tasks while we were trying to justify the program. ( parked the car full of electrons out in remote parts of campus for holiday decorations and signage displays) I them drove it to the PV trainer area to fill it back up.
the newest article in the NEC is micro grids.

My sassy input is here....... so If we distribute the vehicle to a route, and keep it charged ready to go on said route, why not skip the middle man and just get some inter city rail put in and make the kids move to the depots and get on the motion product...... I used a train in denmark daily to go get a burger and beer at lunch for the college campus. It works.
 
Here's the kick in the crotch. We are going to throw 5 billion at getting new buses out there. You should be able to buy a load of new vehicles for that, correct? Nope.

If you were to take that money and replace buses older than 2014 (that don't have the current DPF / SCR catalyst setups (a shit show in and of itself)) with new low emissions schools buses, you could purchase roughly 62,500 units and be able to immediately run them. They are not your childhood diesels. They can start up in the garage and you don't even smell them because the system is capturing so many particulates. For reference, there are ~450,000 school buses in the country.

How many E-buses do you imagine that getting you?? 14,285

The cost runs from $350 - 400K and is rising steadily. Then you need to install the charging station for $65-70K that will only juice up 4 units at a time. Then pray your grid can handle the load. The cute rebuttal is that during the summer, when the buses aren't moving and plugged in, they act as energy storage yards to feed the system during peak hours. As they 'feed the system' the meter is running in reverse paying the operator. So, they offset one months cost out of the 9 months they run. The other 8 months are just ripping from the grid.

Following best practices with charging they are expected to have a 12-15 year lifespan before the battery degrades to the point of needing replacement. Most of our districts try to rotate their fleets every 7 - 10 years (due to northern tier states corrosion issues). After that they are relocated to the mid-west or south to continue duty. Who in their right mind is going to buy in on a vehicle that only has 2-5 years left before needing a battery replacement?? Battery costs? Granted, they have been dropping since first introduced, but are still $100K. The first ones ordered to replace faulty packs were $130K !! Lastly, you just ripped out that 2 ton (literally) dead battery. Where are you putting that? Maybe a fresh offshore reef.

Rant over.

Edit for Mike's reply -
In a huge amount of the country, spreading out the load across the grid to remote sites where the operators live Is a great idea. Those individual sites would still need charging ports installed. Also, typically those routes are MUCH more spread out and MUCH longer than the city suburb routes. Any routes longer than 100 miles you're screwed. Then you still have to get a full charge back in the battery before the afternoon run. The closer to the city you get, parking becomes an issue for the operator. The operators around here have remote lots, but they still have 15-20 buses in each one.
 
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DAVENET said:
Here's the kick in the crotch. We are going to throw 5 billion at getting new buses out there. You should be able to buy a load of new vehicles for that, correct? Nope.

If you were to take that money and replace buses older than 2014 (that don't have the current DPF / SCR catalyst setups (a shit show in and of itself)) with new low emissions schools buses, you could purchase roughly 62,500 units and be able to immediately run them. They are not your childhood diesels. They can start up in the garage and you don't even smell them because the system is capturing so many particulates. For reference, there are ~450,000 school buses in the country.

How many E-buses do you imagine that getting you?? 14,285

The cost runs from $350 - 400K and is rising steadily. Then you need to install the charging station for $65-70K that will only juice up 4 units at a time. Then pray your grid can handle the load. The cute rebuttal is that during the summer, when the buses aren't moving and plugged in, they act as energy storage yards to feed the system during peak hours. As they 'feed the system' the meter is running in reverse paying the operator. So, they offset one months cost out of the 9 months they run. The other 8 months are just ripping from the grid.

Following best practices with charging they are expected to have a 12-15 year lifespan before the battery degrades to the point of needing replacement. Most of our districts try to rotate their fleets every 7 - 10 years (due to northern tier states corrosion issues). After that they are relocated to the mid-west or south to continue duty. Who in their right mind is going to buy in on a vehicle that only has 2-5 years left before needing a battery replacement?? Battery costs? Granted, they have been dropping since first introduced, but are still $100K. The first ones ordered to replace faulty packs were $130K !! Lastly, you just ripped out that 2 ton (literally) dead battery. Where are you putting that? Maybe a fresh offshore reef.

Rant over.

Edit for Mike's reply -
In a huge amount of the country, spreading out the load across the grid to remote sites where the operators live Is a great idea. Those individual sites would still need charging ports installed. Also, typically those routes are MUCH more spread out and MUCH longer than the city suburb routes. Any routes longer than 100 miles you're screwed. Then you still have to get a full charge back in the battery before the afternoon run. The closer to the city you get, parking becomes an issue for the operator. The operators around here have remote lots, but they still have 15-20 buses in each one.
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The bolded is a lie. In order to "feed back into the system" those buses would have to have accepted a full charge. Then comes the rub.
Transmission power loss.

In the process of returning that power, isn't some of it lost? Hardly efficient.

What the buses actually become is a reserve source for peak periods. The very same period of daytime need they are supposed to be hauling our children.

Whilst these comments are pertinent, I object to this logic. Logic and common sense continue to be absent in justifications of the EV phenome.

BTW, used School busses in my state of Missouri tend to end their lives hauling tourists back from canoe and raft floats on our many rivers. I doubt electrics would fill that need.
 
I agree with you, but my statement is still correct. For the reason you mention they can't do anything 'in season', but the selling push is getting the return savings by providing a power reserve during peak summer hours when school is out. But, it only offsets one month's energy purchases during the operation months while the district is still footing the power bill for the other eight months. I agree that 100% of what goes in is not coming back out without losses.

The bus purchase costs and infrastructure is dead nuts accurate though.
 
DAVENET said:
I agree with you, but my statement is still correct. For the reason you mention they can't do anything 'in season', but the selling push is getting the return savings by providing a power reserve during peak summer hours when school is out. But, it only offsets one month's energy purchases during the operation months while the district is still footing the power bill for the other eight months. I agree that 100% of what goes in is not coming back out without losses.

The bus purchase costs and infrastructure is dead nuts accurate though.
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Agreed.
Bottomline, No matter the weight of current arguments, the logic of going 100% EV is seriously flawed.
 
Yesterday I saw that the city of Chicago is going to be getting a whole bunch of these new Electric School Buses. So, given the problems of charging the buses outlined in the OP.

And given that a new Electric Bus costs roughly $370,000 (I actually looked at a Bluebird Bus dealership)

And given that a charge costs between $1000 per SLOW Charger, and roughly $150,000 for a fast charger (again, per Bluebird) Plus installation and the actual cost of charging.

And given that a Diesel Bus costs roughly $100,000 (again, according to a Bluebird Bus dealership)

And given that it seems like a typical school bus is sold by the school district at roughly 180,000 miles

And given that school districts are always saying they are poor and need more TAX PAYER $$$ for education




I have a few questions.
  • Who is going to pay for these $370,000 electric buses?
  • How will they charge the buses?
  • Even if an electric bus has 2x the life of a diesel bus, it costs roughly 4 times the upfront cost, is it possible to save $170,000 on electric buses in various costs versus the cost of buying 2 diesel buses and diesel fuel?
  • If the answer to the above question is NO, which I suspect it will be, then are we willing to live a lower standard of living just so we can have electric school buses running kids around the inner cities of major metro areas?
 
The entire vehicle is hyperinflated in order to rape the Government (a.k.a. you and I) funding that gets kicked out to promote the idea (the funnel that is dumping the Koolaid down our throats).

I just unpacked a replacement charge port. It is the component on the bus that the charge station plugs into that and has the cables running to the battery pack charge flow controller. My cost - $4300. And I assure you, it's not that special.
 
DAVENET said:
The entire vehicle is hyperinflated in order to rape the Government (a.k.a. you and I) funding that gets kicked out to promote the idea (the funnel that is dumping the Koolaid down our throats).

I just unpacked a replacement charge port. It is the component on the bus that the charge station plugs into that and has the cables running to the battery pack charge flow controller. My cost - $4300. And I assure you, it's not that special.
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And your numbers (bus costs, charging stations, etc) in one of your prior posts seem to match up perfectly with what I am finding on the various costs associated with these buses.

I'm curious how much this will all impact our standard of living. Or more correctly, how much it will impact the standard of living that my children and future grandchildren may have because we are already so deep in national debt, and they are the ones who are going to pay for this, so they are the ones who won't be able to afford to buy a house or second car or something in order to pay for the very high costs of this spending
 
chowderman said:
. . . . and in other news . . .
Hertz is dumping their EV fleet and using the proceeds to buy ICE vehicles . . .
seems no one want to rent one . . .
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Got a link?

I thought people liked renting them but they are expensive to repair and very hard to sell on the used market, and Hertz loses too much in the residual value resale market?

Then again, my rental information is a couple years old, so perhaps they USED to like renting them and no longer do so?
 
So it doesn't seem like people don't want to RENT them. Both articles actually say people enjoy the driving experience.

It seems like the costs of ownership (for a rental company) are simply too high. Both articles seem to indicate that cost of repairs are very high. I also found another story, it says the same thing, plus the rapid value depreciation, which I indicated earlier.
 
one has to ponder . . . when going on vacation . . . let's assume you're going to stay local. range not likely an issue - but do you want to spend your vacation looking for a charger?

every single blog about 'taking an EV on a trip' explicitly calls out and repeats you really have to plan ahead and probably are going to have to take detours from charger to charger. you have to plan your vacation around how to keep the car charged . . .
not my idea of having a nice relaxing vacation.

last trip the rental company was keen on coercing me into an EV. we had 3 days long distance driving planned for a visit - so I nixed that.
however I did pay special attention to hotel parking areas / etc looking to see if charging stations available.
none found.
EV are not soup yet, and there is no infrastructure to support them other than your own garage . . .
 
chowderman said:
one has to ponder . . . when going on vacation . . . let's assume you're going to stay local. range not likely an issue - but do you want to spend your vacation looking for a charger?
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Many hotels have chargers. I'd actually, if on vacation, choose to rent an EV if my hotel had chargers. I'd like to get some real experience with an EV to see more of that they are like. If staying at a location, someplace like Orlando, there would never be any need to go "looking for a charger" if the hotel offered a bank of them to its customers.

Certainly I would not rent an EV to go on a trip. But if I was at a location, yes, absolutely.
 
Melensdad said:
Many hotels have chargers. I'd actually, if on vacation, choose to rent an EV if my hotel had chargers. I'd like to get some real experience with an EV to see more of that they are like. If staying at a location, someplace like Orlando, there would never be any need to go "looking for a charger" if the hotel offered a bank of them to its customers.
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My issue with hotel chargers is that guests staying there will just pull their car up to the charger, plug it in then not return until the next day when they need the car again. If you're a late arriving guest, you're screwed.
 
Our Big cities and Metros are all run by Democrats. How about this plan. They do the bus thingy to please their liberal voters and they work out the bugs in the system. Once they succeed , or fail, sensible people in the counties and outlying 'burbs can make a choice.
 
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