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Sushi it's not just the economy that's in trouble

fogtender said:
Not all, but some are, but you clearly didn't read them and get the point that they are leaving your country as well as the ones with "National Health Care" that you so proudly tout as "great", they can't get the service there and are going elsewhere, basically they state that social medicine sucks... which is my whole point that your are just pointing out! Thank you!:tiphat:
Click to expand...

You started posting in this thread claiming that the US had the best system in the world and that people go to the US for treatment for that reason. your links clearly show that is not the case, it appears many more Americans choose to go abroad for treatment than those that go to the USA for treatment.

But lets get back to issue of this thread, we are talking about your system not the quality of care to those that can afford it.
 
daedong said:
But lets get back to issue of this thread, we are talking about your system not the quality of care to those that can afford it.
Click to expand...

I am really suprised that no one has told you the real problem. It has been touched a few times but no one has said it..... we are a capitilist nation and if you want something you work for it...but it's the outsiders such as yourself with your opinions of America;s ways that give the lazy people of this nation the notion that free anything is owed to the which we call entitlement mentality.

We have a nation that has about anthing you want if you work for it but with your input shows me that you really do not understand what America is all about....it's the home of the free not the free home for all.....
 
daedong said:
The US obviously has a problem, read Calfornia's post.
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I did read that post. I feel sorry for his daughter. However it was her choice to do what she did and now she is paying the consequences for her actions. Please understand that I don't begrudge anyone health insurance/health care. But I know people who go into specific careers because they value the health coverage that comes with those careers. I know people who have turned down insurance at a younger age only to regret their decisions later in life and I know people who have gambled without health insurance and beat the system by not being penalized later. But the system is what the system is, and it is known to all. We all make choices in life, some of them come back to bite us in the ass. Sometimes the choices we make are not realistic.
 
California said:
We are already carrying their cost. The only way to spread the cost is universal coverage like other civilized nations figured out already. This isn't do-gooder freebies for all, it is spreading the cost of those write-down and ER people across the largest possible base.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you what since Tax time is coming up, here's what your tax rate would look like with crappy National Health Care:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

Actually, the Conservative government has lowered it a bit. 12 years ago when I was living in Canada I was paying around 40% Federal + Provincial Tax on an income of around $55K Canadian (that's when the Canadian dollar was worth 65 cents to the USD).

My family members that make more than $100K all pay 50-55% in tax every year.

Oh yeah, and the "free" (and crappy) healthcare still isn't "free" for the average person even after the high taxes:

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/premium.html
 
daedong said:
You started posting in this thread claiming that the US had the best system in the world and that people go to the US for treatment for that reason. your links clearly show that is not the case, it appears many more Americans choose to go abroad for treatment than those that go to the USA for treatment.

But lets get back to issue of this thread, we are talking about your system not the quality of care to those that can afford it.
Click to expand...

I didn't spend all day looking for the sites to please you, but if you had read them other than the titles, you would have known that places like the Cleveland Clinc and other US Hospitals are having a large amount of people coming from countries that have a national health care and come here for care because they are on a list at home that may take up to a year to get treatment. Also, it shows that those that can afford medical insurance here, don't want to buy it, they also go to a third world country for medical because it is cheaper, not better. They spend more than if they had spent the money here on a policy.

My claim is that those in the US that want National Health care are doing it for a power grab instead of fixing the underlying causes for it's problems...Such as the Trial Lawyers that are running up the costs for Doctors and Hospitals to be in business, Illegals that are overloading our "Free" services and other root causes of costs.

We still have the best medical system in the World due to the free market system in spite of those issues. Those countries that have "Socialized" medicine have doctors that are on a limited/fixed income and tend to just do it as a job, not as a passion. I prefer to have a doctor that makes a killing for an income and does it though referal and doing a good job, not because some guy in an office assigns me a "Case worker".
 
fogtender said:
I prefer to have a doctor that makes a killing for an income and does it though referal and doing a good job, not because some guy in an office assigns me a "Case worker".
Click to expand...

I bet most people in Canada would just be happy if their doctor was allowed to order all the possible tests and procedures for them and perhaps even get them to see a specialist sooner than six months. Nationalized healthcare takes the medical decision out of the hands of the Doctor and puts it into the hands of the faceless bureaucrat - and we all know how much the government employee cares about you.
 
PBinWA said:
I'll tell you what since Tax time is coming up, here's what your tax rate would look like with crappy National Health Care:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

Actually, the Conservative government has lowered it a bit. 12 years ago when I was living in Canada I was paying around 40% Federal + Provincial Tax on an income of around $55K Canadian (that's when the Canadian dollar was worth 65 cents to the USD).

My family members that make more than $100K all pay 50-55% in tax every year.

Oh yeah, and the "free" (and crappy) healthcare still isn't "free" for the average person even after the high taxes:

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/premium.html
Click to expand...

I do not believe that California, Daedong or I advocate a totally free to all medical care system for the US. We are just stating that there are problems with the direction we are headed now and to prevent future larger problems we need to address change at this time in the way the system operates. Free medical care should never happen when some one has the ability to pay or buy the insurance to cover themselves. Reduced costs for those truly in need to make if fairer for those that do pay for their own is badly needed.

Government control or oversight to stop frivolous lawsuits or to install some type of price controls to make it affordable, but still very profitable to those providing services is possible and needed. Many of the health care companies providing services are in the top of profitability of all types of companies with extra money to continue to expand and control medical care in our country. Are these extra profits beyond reason? We are forced to pay the cost unless someone actually looks into where the dollars go and how are they being spent? A bunch of this money is spent on lobbyists to keep the existing system in place and tell us that any other way is wrong and will not work. Money talks and controls what we get as citizens of this country which includes quality and type of health care.

Why follow the lead of the failed systems, let us look at how can it be done efficiently at reduced costs and do it our way which may actually work in the long run. We have many instances of failed models to avoid and systems that are functioning as intended to avoid. Everyone just assumes because it is not being done that it cannot be done. That is just being negative without good thought and planning to accomplish a goal. Where would the US be if throughout history we would of taken this type of attitude toward what we consider the impossible?
 
mtntopper said:
Why follow the lead of the failed systems, let us look at how can it be done efficiently at reduced costs and do it our way which may actually work in the long run. We have many instances of failed models to avoid and systems that are functioning as intended to avoid. Everyone just assumes because it is not being done that it cannot be done. That is just being negative without good thought and planning to accomplish a goal. Where would the US be if throughout history we would of taken this type of attitude toward what we consider the impossible?
Click to expand...

If you want a successful healthcare system then you have to take the word "free" out of the equation. Everyone over the age of 18 needs to pay at least $20 for every visit they make to a doctor and $100 for a specialist. All the current systems fail because they give too much access to people that abuse the system.

There are Doctor's in Canada that make a killing lining up "patients" for 5 minute visits and then billing the government the minimum rate. There is no "cost" to the patient to go to the doctor so they go for every silly reason in the world.

There needs to be a certain amount of "sufferring" in everyone's life. There needs to be barriers to healthcare in order to prevent it's abuse. All I ever hear from the health care "reformers" is how it needs to be free and accessible - I would argue the opposite.
 
mtntopper said:
Free medical care should never happen when some one has the ability to pay or buy the insurance to cover themselves. Reduced costs for those truly in need to make if fairer for those that do pay for their own is badly needed.
Click to expand...

You would be amazed at how many people that are on welfare funded healthcare visit their doctor's and have fancy cell phones, fancy clothes, and show very little signs of "poverty".

I'm just not seeing the truly poor person in the US anymore. I see people that don't want to work real jobs and face real responsibilities (as in paying for healthcare) but I don't see people that are working 40 hours a week and not able to afford cigarettes, alcohol, cable TV, Internet, Cell phones, or big screen TV's.

I see a lot of people making bad decisions and wanting others to pay for their bad decisions.
 
mtntopper said:
I do not believe that California, Daedong or I advocate a totally free to all medical care system for the US. We are just stating that there are problems with the direction we are headed now and to prevent future larger problems we need to address change at this time in the way the system operates. Free medical care should never happen when some one has the ability to pay or buy the insurance to cover themselves. Reduced costs for those truly in need to make if fairer for those that do pay for their own is badly needed.
Click to expand...

It is the constant lawsuits that are making the trial lawyers rich with Class Action Lawsuits and net nothing for the "Victim" that is questionable in the first place. The illegals that have closed down a lot of Hospitals across the Nation from abuse.

Government control or oversight to stop frivolous lawsuits or to install some type of price controls to make it affordable, but still very profitable to those providing services is possible and needed. Many of the health care companies providing services are in the top of profitability of all types of companies with extra money to continue to expand and control medical care in our country. Are these extra profits beyond reason? We are forced to pay the cost unless someone actually looks into where the dollars go and how are they being spent? A bunch of this money is spent on lobbyists to keep the existing system in place and tell us that any other way is wrong and will not work. Money talks and controls what we get as citizens of this country which includes quality and type of health care.
Click to expand...

What controls the country is the voter, and most have no clue to what is going on, they bash Bush, when he is out of the loop of what is done by the Clowns in Congress that affect us directly... even they approved the "War" that we are now in and when it became unpopular, they had the same Intel, but now chant "He lied"... Well duh, we keep re-electing them. None of them are accountable to anything.

These are the same folks that are going to bring you quality Health Care?

Why follow the lead of the failed systems, let us look at how can it be done efficiently at reduced costs and do it our way which may actually work in the long run. We have many instances of failed models to avoid and systems that are functioning as intended to avoid. Everyone just assumes because it is not being done that it cannot be done. That is just being negative without good thought and planning to accomplish a goal. Where would the US be if throughout history we would of taken this type of attitude toward what we consider the impossible?
Click to expand...

You are talking about an elected bunch of people that have mostly never had a real job outside of public service. They are "parasites" by definition that live off the host creature, the "taxpayer"... What they will do is create the largest organization known to man that can't fix a cut finger...

I watched Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi in an interview the other night, and I never realized just how stupid she is... I don't mean that as a slant, I mean dumb, not a clue, space case.... She just babbles with no thought to what she is saying and what her actions do to the Nation as a whole. She would be asked a question about the color blue and she would babble about how fast a tree grows.... (that last part is sarcasm for those that don't get it)

It will be people like her that set the tone for this MEGA government Health Care program that will dwarf anything in the known Universe.

Which brings me to the three biggest lies:

"I will respect you in the morning"

"The Check is in the Mail"

and my favorate...

"Hi, I am from the government and here to help"
 
Last edited:
Just as a side note to all those that think the Federal Government is going to save us with health care...

I was a federal employee that had my right knee blown out at work about five years ago, I had to deal with the Federal Workman's Comp office (keep that in mind). I had to spend almost six months to wait for "Approval" to get the doctor recommended Operation...

Oh wait, I forgot to mention the fact that I had to find a Doctor that would even look at me when I mentioned the Fed Workman's Comp part. They would throw holy water on me and hold up a cross to get me to leave the office on crutches or hang up the phone with hysterical laughter after yelling NO to my question if they would deal with me! That killed some time to find a doctor dumb enough not to know about the Fed's "OWCP" program.

After the operation "That didn't work" (something about "Lowest Bid"), I then had to deal with this same Fed org. that is faceless and has no concern for my well being, or anyone else's for that matter. The doctor didn't get paid, nor was the hospital paid for the space used either for almost a year. After that the doctor would not see me for followup work and refuses to take any more Fed OWCP cases either.

That is the short version of what you can expect from National Health care. I had no options to use my personal health care, because it was work related I had to deal directly with the Federal Agency's that did nothing but screw things up from the start to now. Had I gone in and said to my normal doctor, I fell down and hurt my knee, it would have been a done deal in a few weeks at best.

Basically, for those of you that think National Health care is the salvation of all, you are going to sell your soul to the Devil for being really "Stupid".
 
"John McCain is willing to address the fundamental problem: the rapidly rising cost of U.S. health care........ Controlling health care costs will take fundamental change - nothing short of a complete reform of the culture of our health system and the way we pay for it will suffice. Reforms to federal policy and programs should focus on enhancing quality while controlling costs:"

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm

I have now read enough to believe contrary to many of the posters to this thread that you do have a problem that needs addressing

First, there are numerous International studies that certainly cites problems with US health care compared to other Industrialized nations. (If you wish I can post more than I have posted so far.)

Secondly, I now find that many politicians from opposite sides of politics share the view that fundamental changes to health care need to be made.

Many here have gone on about a FREE system. Let me make it clear I have not, and never will, advocate a free health care system.

PBinWA, I agree it sounds like Canada has a sh!t system.
 
daedong said:
"John McCain is willing to address the fundamental problem: the rapidly rising cost of U.S. health care........ Controlling health care costs will take fundamental change - nothing short of a complete reform of the culture of our health system and the way we pay for it will suffice. Reforms to federal policy and programs should focus on enhancing quality while controlling costs:"
Click to expand...

Yes, and many believe the 'fundamental change' involves the impact the legal system/trial lawyers have on our medical care. If we can fundamentally change that relationship then we can lower the cost of health care. That is the 'complete reform of the culture' of our system that many feel needs to be addressed.

Thank you for bringing up McCain's quotation since it clearly shows this point! :tiphat:
 
B_Skurka said:
Yes, and many believe the 'fundamental change' involves the impact the legal system/trial lawyers have on our medical care. If we can fundamentally change that relationship then we can lower the cost of health care. That is the 'complete reform of the culture' of our system that many feel needs to be addressed.

Thank you for bringing up McCain's quotation since it clearly shows this point! :tiphat:
Click to expand...

So you do acknowledge that there is a problem Bob.

Don't manipulate McCain's quotation though. The legal aspect was one point only.
 
daedong said:
So you do acknowledge that there is a problem Bob.

Don't manipulate McCain's quotation though. The legal aspect was one point only.
Click to expand...

Yes, the problem, as has been stated several times by several people, is the legal system's effect on the cost of health care. It would be far more affordable if the trial lawyers could be reigned in. But that aside, there is no limit to the access to proper care and care is available to everyone who needs it, in fact the law clearly states everyone must be treated even if they can't afford it. Nobody can be turned away from an emergency room at the hospital.
 
B_Skurka said:
Yes, the problem, as has been stated several times by several people, is the legal system's effect on the cost of health care. It would be far more affordable if the trial lawyers could be reigned in. But that aside, there is no limit to the access to proper care and care is available to everyone who needs it, in fact the law clearly states everyone must be treated even if they can't afford it. Nobody can be turned away from an emergency room at the hospital.
Click to expand...

Bob clearly there is more to the health issue in the US than just the legal system. I should hope no one is turned away from the emergency room as that would be a breach of ethics, nothing to do with the law. The two issues highlighted in my original post were the high rates of preventable deaths and the overall cost. From the articles that I have read in the last 24 hrs there are obviously many other issues that need addressing. While you claim no one waits for emergency care the true problem is the shear number of people uninsured. My research shows me clearly that the uninsured do not have access to preventative treatment and programs to deal with their existing diseases. This lack of preventative education and treatment leads to added costs as untreated individuals end up in emergency rooms when it could have been avoided.
It is also very clear that if you have a pre-existing illness and you want private cover it is highly likely that you will be rejected or at least will pay through the nose. You are not talking about car insurance here we are talking lives.
 
Vin, and everybody, here's a model for what American universal health care could be.

Kaiser Permanente

I've been a member for 40-some years. It works.

Comparative studies such as Consumer Reports usually rank Kaiser in the top group of whatever they are focusing on, both for level of care and reasonableness of cost.

Kaiser's emphasis is on preventive medicine, which keeps their costs down and of course makes for a pleasanter life for their members.

Keep an eye on Kaiser. If any of these candidates really implement major reform, you heard it here first that Kaiser will be the model.

Kaiser isn't 'free' care, you pay a monthly fee plus a co-pay for each visit and prescription. But these co-pays are set just high enough to slow down nuisance demands.

Under the plan I belong to, the visit co-pays are a flat $10 per visit when you walk up to the window, even if they are about to spend $50,000 on you. Prescriptions likewise, you get their group price and the printout shows typically $10 and occasionally 'You saved $110' etc.

And best of all, handing over that co-pay is *all* the paperwork you ever see. No such thing as pay now then try to get reimbursed, or deductibles you have to spend before they start coverage. Even a hospitalization has no paperwork. It's all built into their internal process that the customer never sees. This aspect is probably similar to active duty military health care, from the customer perspective.

Just a thought - since it works for Kaiser and its customers, why not adapt this model to a national plan?
 
[FONT=&quot]Redrocker [/FONT]


Thomas Sowell

“People who are urging us to follow other countries that control the prices of medications seem uninterested in the fact that those countries depend on the United States to create new drugs, after they destroyed incentives to do so in their own countries.”

[FONT=&quot]Just an example of the crock he talked, why would this be, any drugs used in any universal system anywhere in the world are still purchased at market value. Go figure his comment.[/FONT]
 
The biggest obstacle to any legislation including health care is to eliminate the profit potential of those legislating and enacting the program/laws. Then, it may actually work to benefit those it is intended to benefit and not the ones enacting the legislation. Much of our Congress consists of lawyers, doctors and others with self interest motives that in the end benefit the most from what they force feed their constituency.

Califronia's Kaiser plan may be a part of the solution to the health care crisis in the US. I think by making or providing "everyone insurance" from the federal or state government at a reasonable cost based on income levels to each uninsured person in the US and then letting companies such as Kaiser administer the program may be a viable approach to better and less costly health care for those that do not have private insurance available. If not insured privately, then you must have the sponsered progarm to help defer medical costs. As I stated before those that are insured or do pay for their own medical are also paying for those that are not insured whether we like it or not. I want to see a program that evens out the costs among all and makes everyone responsible for their health care and medical needs. At the same time the medical companies/professionals that are making the extreme high profits need to be limited to a reasonable profit on their investments. I am not saying or advocating to take away the profit motive but many companies including insurance companies seem to have money to burn in other areas unrelated to medical and are doing so now.
 
California said:
Vin, and everybody, here's a model for what American universal health care could be.

Kaiser Permanente

I've been a member for 40-some years. It works.

Comparative studies such as Consumer Reports usually rank Kaiser in the top group of whatever they are focusing on, both for level of care and reasonableness of cost.

Kaiser's emphasis is on preventive medicine, which keeps their costs down and of course makes for a pleasanter life for their members.

Keep an eye on Kaiser. If any of these candidates really implement major reform, you heard it here first that Kaiser will be the model.

Kaiser isn't 'free' care, you pay a monthly fee plus a co-pay for each visit and prescription. But these co-pays are set just high enough to slow down nuisance demands.

Under the plan I belong to, the visit co-pays are a flat $10 per visit when you walk up to the window, even if they are about to spend $50,000 on you. Prescriptions likewise, you get their group price and the printout shows typically $10 and occasionally 'You saved $110' etc.

And best of all, handing over that co-pay is *all* the paperwork you ever see. No such thing as pay now then try to get reimbursed, or deductibles you have to spend before they start coverage. Even a hospitalization has no paperwork. It's all built into their internal process that the customer never sees. This aspect is probably similar to active duty military health care, from the customer perspective.

Just a thought - since it works for Kaiser and its customers, why not adapt this model to a national plan?
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I hear mixed reviews about Kaiser up here. Kaiser seems to have longer delays in getting to see specialists and diagnostic tests - similar to Canada. I think Kaiser and Canada's healthcare systems are ideal for people that don't need urgent critical care. If you have a relatively minor health issue that you can afford to take some time to get treated then you will be fine. If you have a brain tumor or some other big issue then you are going to get screwed by the bureaucracy.

National Healthcare is fine but people need to be able to opt-out of it and not pay for it. If I opt out then I don't want to have to pay for others if I'm paying for better private insurance.

I can live with the government forcing everyone to have health insurance (even though it goes against my principles) BUT I do not want to be taxed extra or forced to pay for other people's insurance especially if I am paying for better quality healthcare.
 
There's a lot of opinions on this. Many are reflected in this thread.

What I haven't seen much of in this discussion:
The Federal Government already defines what can be charged by providers (physicians and hospitals).
The Federal Government is the single largest health care purchaser in the country.
The Federal Government is the main driving force in how much a provider gets reimbursed for services rendered.
The majority (approximately 2/3) of hospitals in the USA are non-profit.
Of the remaining 1/3 of hospitals, about 1/2 of them are "public" hospitals which is owned by some level of government (federal, state) and provides free (or near free) services to its patients.

If you don't think the government is already running a large percentage of health care in this country, you should do some more digging. So, you want to give them what's left and think things will get better? Think again...
 
PBinWA said:
That's interesting. I hear mixed reviews about Kaiser up here. Kaiser seems to have longer delays in getting to see specialists and diagnostic tests - similar to Canada. I think Kaiser and Canada's healthcare systems are ideal for people that don't need urgent critical care. If you have a relatively minor health issue that you can afford to take some time to get treated then you will be fine. If you have a brain tumor or some other big issue then you are going to get screwed by the bureaucracy.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't grade Kaiser any better than 'B' for the speed they respond to non-emergency stuff. That's a visible tradeoff for reasonable cost.

My experience in 2006 would be an example. I've had kidney stones on and off since my 20's. I felt poisoned, hungover, dopey for a couple days then I passed a stone so I called Kaiser.

First you have to say the right thing to get past a clerical, non-nurse screener. She referred me to an RN 'Advice Nurse' who made an appointment about 3 days out with my primary doctor. This guy treats simple stuff but his real role is to make an insightful diagnosis then know which specialist to send you to. I think he's an native of China and educated in a first rate med school in Hong Kong. I don't doubt his medical skill but there's a significant language barrier. He understands me, I just don't understand him. Whatever, he ordered xrays and a cat scan to confirm the diagnosis, then a week later put me on the schedule to see the surgery department 3 weeks beyond that. I felt fine, I just feared more kidney poisoning could occur at any time.

Surgery did a screening interview and showed me the xrays and the 3d, zoomable, cat scan. Then they used Lithotropsy, an ultrasound stone-shattering non surgical treatment. This was now 2 months from my first call but I hadn't felt bad.

That didn't go well. Apparently all the stone fragments moved at once. I felt severe, overwhelming pain and couldn't keep down any liquids or painkillers. I went in that evening to Kaiser ER.

They were excellent. When the nurse couldn't get a needle into me for painkillers (collapsed veins due to shock) the head night-shift RN was called. She couldn't find a vein either so she sat with me, talking, trying to keep me conscious, and called in a phlebotomist (blood drawer) specialist from the lab - its staffed all night. This third person finally got some morphine or something in me. I've never felt pain like that. They would ask '1 to 10?' and I would reply '16, and I'm serious'.

As soon as the dope hit, I could drink liquids to flush the debris out of my kidneys and in an hour I felt fine. About 4 am I went home. Then a couple Vicodins a day were helpful for a couple of days. No problems since.

Total cost to me under $50 for everything, with no further paperwork. I felt I got first rate treatment at every step where quality of care was important - after I got past the DMV-like initial entry process. Maybe working in a bureaucracy 20 years made me less concerned about the administrative side of this experience. I have faith they will get me in timely if I ever need it.
 
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