• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

"When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Doc, not only was it kinda funny, but the GAO discovered that it's a tradition; something like an initiation. Their report outlined much more from the transition from Bush I to Clinton. But, the right wing is ALWAYS morally outraged and obviously has no sense of humor. I just wish they'd quit trying to jam it down our throats.

I sure am glad that Bob Barr is gone; he was one of the worst of the morally outraged lunatics. He's the one that called for the GAO investigation and is almost single-handedly responsible for most of the exxagerations.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
Bob, do you understand how the UN works? They have no means to enforce their own sanctions unless the member nations provide the means. The United States is the single most powerful member, by far. If they are"relying" on the USA to do it, it's because no one else can. And, if they "rely" on the USA, your statement that they then criticize us doesn't make sense. I'd like to see some evidence of that criticism. If you're talking about individual members, then make that distinction clear. Youy statement addressed the "bureaucrats" of the United Nations, not the individual members who DO criticize us. I don't believe your categorization of the United Nations officials is true, and I'm surprised that you said it -- you usually are more thoughtful.


Don, I obviously do not understand how the U.N. works. What I do understand is that the U.N. does not work.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
I resent your continuing to try to define how I and others who blame Bush really think. You will never understand, and it's ludicrous for you to try. Leave out the trash talk about people you can't understand, and stick to the facts in the posts you make, and someone might listen to you. But then, you'd have nothing to say...

Does everybody see the double standard now? Am I going to get called down again when Don turns yet again to personal comments and I reply in kind?

:bsflag2:

There you go getting your personal digs in while at the same time whining that someone would dig at you. I resent your leftist elitist attutude. How do you like it tossed back at you? You are the one making the issue personal. You dish it out. Be prepared to take it.

It is clear that you are a Bush hater and are still pissed at the election outcome and cannot get over it. This thread is nothing more that what I called it at the beginning. The "discussion" is nothing more than a charade so that the ABB agenda can be repeated over and over again. If Gore or Kerry were president all these findings would then be considered WMD and justification for whatever actions they took by you and the other anti-Bush liberals.

In your eyes Bush nor any Republican can do anything right. Why even have these bullshit threads? Have the guts to just come out and state your case instead of masquerading it. I see right through your agenda.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
For every Al Sharpton you throw at me, I'll throw a David Duke at you, and more, and I can keep it up all day. Let's start with the premise that neither side is perfect, and move on from there.

Yeow! That's a low blow. :smileywac Personally, I'd throw a "Ferrikhan" at you. :eek: I think he is at the opposite fringe as Duke. I'd think you would have a hard time painting either of them as mainstream.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Big Dog said:
From making sure your kid gets to play to fighting the perfect war, neither helps anyone. There is defeat, we have to accept it. There is winning and in war you cannot play politically correct........IMO, Irag should be over and Bagdad a Wal-Mart parking lot!

Now I ain't promoting the killing of innocents. But you must eliminate the centers for organization.

Silent enim leges inter arma - Laws are silent in times of war. (Cicero)
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Does everybody see the double standard now? Am I going to get called down again when Don turns yet again to personal comments and I reply in kind?
OK, first of all, my comment was personal. You piss me off. I'll apologize, in a minute.

But, let's look and see if your replies are "in kind". I picked out two specific things you have done in your posts: trash talk and misleading, non-factual posts. I asked you to stop doing it, but then I observed that if you did, you'd have nothing else to say. I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement based on the posts you've made so far. They either recite half a story with the important part left out (misleading), or they are trash talk: ("you are a Bush hater and are still pissed at the election outcome and cannot get over it. This thread is nothing more that what I called it at the beginning. The "discussion" is nothing more than a charade so that the ABB agenda can be repeated over and over again. If Gore or Kerry were president all these findings would then be considered WMD and justification for whatever actions they took by you and the other anti-Bush liberals. In your eyes Bush nor any Republican can do anything right. Why even have these bullshit threads?")

I haven't seen you say anything else, so my comments were not a personal attack, but an accurate observation.

You, on the other hand, have called me every kind of name you can think of, and have tried to tell me what is in my own mind. You try to tell me what I believe. You try to tell me how I think. These are bald-faced personal attacks; you don't know me, you have no idea what I'm thinking, and you have no idea what I believe. I have NOT called you any names and have NOT stooped to the level of attacks you favor.

Therefore, your replies are NOT "in kind". I'll let others decide what they actually are; but you have a lot of nerve thinking that they're "in kind".

Now, I will apologize for stating the obvious, that you have nothing to say but trash talk. I'm sorry.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
You, on the other hand, have called me every kind of name you can think of, and have tried to tell me what is in my own mind. You try to tell me what I believe. You try to tell me how I think. These are bald-faced personal attacks; you don't know me, you have no idea what I'm thinking, and you have no idea what I believe. I have NOT called you any names and have NOT stooped to the level of attacks you favor.

:rofl1: :yum:

What names are those Don? Liberal? Leftist? Do you deny either of those? Are you embarrassed by those labels?

You do hate Bush. Why is pointing out your agenda a personal attack??

It is typical of the left to be overly sensitive. The hit dog always hollers, right Don? Everyone else here may coddle you and let you get away with your leftist blanket statements but I will not. This is not Democrat Underground.com. I know you don't like me and I don't give a damn if you do or if you don't. I do not seek your approval. I just call it like I see it and what I see is just another bitter liberal ABB spouting the same old agenda over and over again. :bigMoon:
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Everything you say is so far from the truth that when I read your posts, I don't recognize myself. I can't possibly address it all. But, let's take one tiny part of it as an example.
You do hate Bush.
I don't hate anyone. I don't even dislike Mr. Bush. I think I'd enjoy sitting down and having a beer with him. I'm sure he has something to contribute, and I'd learn all I could from his experiences. I do the same with almost everyone, from CEO's to the "sanitation engineers" who pick up my trash.

For the most part, I don't even blame him for the problems of this administration. If you go back and read my posts carefully, I rarely say anything directly about Bush; I use "the Bush administration" or just the "adminstration"; I use "Bush's people"; sometimes I say "Bush & Company". I don't blame him any more than I blame a raccoon for running in front of traffic; they don't know any better, and that's not their fault.

I don't hate Bush; the strongest feeling I have for him is pity.

THEREFORE, for you to state that I hate Bush, you are utterly, completely and absolutely wrong. It follows from there that if you are wrong about that, you are wrong about everything else. You are even wrong when you say I don't like you; "like" has nothing to do with it. What I said was, you piss me off. I might like you just fine if I could see another side of you.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Cityboy said:
What names are those Don? Liberal? Leftist? Do you deny either of those? Are you embarrassed by those labels?

Blatent name calling!!!!

Cityboy said:
You do hate Bush. Why is pointing out your agenda a personal attack??

Just like Don said, your trying to say what he thinks. Hate is a bad word to put in anyones mouth.

Cityboy said:
It is typical of the left to be overly sensitive. The hit dog always hollers, right Don? Everyone else here may coddle you and let you get away with your leftist blanket statements but I will not. This is not Democrat Underground.com. I know you don't like me and I don't give a damn if you do or if you don't. I do not seek your approval. I just call it like I see it and what I see is just another bitter liberal ABB spouting the same old agenda over and over again.

CB,
You added nothing to the conversation, but managed to call Don a number of names. 2nd warning BE CIVIL. Please comment on the situation and WHY you believe it to be different than another poster. To attack the poster makes YOU look bad, and will not be tolerated on FF.

Doc
 
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Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OK Doc, this is your forum and your rules. I’ll do my best to remain within those rules. I think the rules are applied subjectively, for example Don called me a liar and hurled other insults toward me in this thread:



http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=722



He was not called down, but I was. He infers that people who disagree with him are stupid or have been fooled by Fox News etc. etc. There are numerous instances of this from here back to TBN. If this is the way the game is to be played here, so be it. Your forum. Your rules. I don’t pay the bills here so I’ll live with it.



It is my opinion that this thread is nothing more than a sounding board for the ABB members of this forum. Some resent that opinion. That’s fine, resent it, but it is how I see it all the same. If it pisses someone off, well we each can control what we allow to piss us off.



No matter what anyone says, the drumbeat is the same. Those on the right make a point, volumes of information is cut and pasted from the left. Neither side will ever convince the other. It has been the same old same old, especially since the 2004 election.



It is just like in the Clinton days when those on the right went on and on and on about Clintons lack of moral character and propensity to lie and constant scandals. That got old too. The left will never convince the right that Clinton was a saint, nor will the right convince the left the Bush’s motives are pure. But at least at some point, the right began to get their message out and let go of the incessant Clinton bashing. I’m talking about the politicians, not the armchair citizens like all of us here.



But here we go yet again. A fact I keep coming back to and that none of those folks of the Democrat persuasion will say what the party stands for. It is a constant drum beat about Iraq and about how screwed up this current administration is. Not one new idea about how to successfully wrap the war up, only blame and derision. Not one new idea about how to move the country forward, only more blame and derision. Complaint after complaint after complaint. Zero solutions.



I am amused at how long these WMD dissertations can go on, making full circle and then starting over again. And yes, I thoroughly enjoyed pulling Don’s chain and pissing him off. I admit it. How much longer can this issue be discussed? Maybe a few more cut and pastes and all these Republicans will leave the dark side for the bright light of truth broadcast by the Democrats.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

I thoroughly enjoyed pulling Don’s chain and pissing him off. I admit it.
I have more respect for you now than I ever have. If that's all you were doing, then go for it. If you really believe some of the things you claim, I feel sorry for you.

 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Cityboy said:
OK Doc, this is your forum and your rules. I’ll do my best to remain within those rules.

Thanks CB. If we all keep personal attacks and name calling out of the mix, it will lend itsef to a better discussion of the subject at hand.

Cityboy said:
And yes, I thoroughly enjoyed pulling Don’s chain and pissing him off. I admit it.
I'm glad you admited it. It sure came across in your posts. Please do not do this anymore, to anyone on here.

Don, please refrain from calling CB names. You might have enjoyed pushing some of his buttons also, but it was not as obvious to me if that was the case.

Okay, back to WMD ...go at it.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Dargo said:
Silent enim leges inter arma - Laws are silent in times of war. (Cicero)

Amen, now tell GWB and finish what we started in Iraq!
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

What I find amazing is that everyone here is trying to justify a position on the "war".

Who cares at this point why we went? We're there, we have to deal with that fact.

The most important thing is what we can do now as a "country" is find a way to "save" the Americans that are now over "there" fighting.

Be thankful that we at least have this freedom to be able to discuss this topic in our own homes, on our computers.

Go to Walter Reed and get a dose of reality.

On that note, per a previous post of mine that I regretted, can I ask, who here as been in war, has been shot at, had to kill another person where you can see thier eyes, and see a friend die?

Just curious.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

who here as been in war, has been shot at, had to kill another person where you can see thier eyes, and see a friend die?
Not me, but not because I'm some anti-war nut; they wouldn't take me for health reasons. Probably just as well, because my era was Vietnam, and I sure didn't think that was a war worth fighting. If my country is truly theatened, I'd fight. WWII was such, and I think Afghanistan was worth doing. But no, I've never been shot at, never killed anything. I've seen folks die, but not violently. Heck, I've never even been in a fist fight -- always talked my way out, and usually made a friend. I guess that's why I look to diplomacy. When talking didn't work, I called the cops; put a few people in jail over the years. I've never backed down, never ran away, but have had only one punch thrown at me, and he went to jail. That was 49 years ago...
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

dzalphakilo said:
Go to Walter Reed and get a dose of reality.

On that note, per a previous post of mine that I regretted, can I ask, who here as been in war, has been shot at, had to kill another person where you can see thier eyes, and see a friend die?

Just curious.

Unfortunately, I think I read where they are closing Walter Reed. I don't know if this has been reversed, but I know I heard that.

I have a fairly close friend (if someone wants to look it up, I'll provide his name in a PM) who was hit 7 times in the back by 7.62mm rounds in VN. He has several confirmed kills and he spent the better part of 2 years in VA hospitals after being shot. He is about the most even tempered and well rounded person I know, especially with his quick wit and great sense of humor. After knowing him for nearly 5 years, he spent about 3 hours telling me about his VN experience and his recovery. He doens't paint a pretty picture at all, but neither does he paint a "pitty me" picture either.

He did clearly tell me how his service to our country positively removed any hint of prior prejudices he may have had. A low ranking black PFC risked his life and took 2 rounds in dragging my friend back to cover without being even asked to do so. The PFC later stated that it simply was "the right thing to do" as why he risked his life to rescue his platoon leader. Anyway, my friend Wayne (his actual middle name) gave me a better sense of what war was like than Saving Private Ryan, or Blackhawk Down ever could. He was speaking from the first person prospective, having been there, done that.

He has no regrets, and would do the same again. He has a very strong sense of patriotism, but no longer supports our involvement in Iraq. He states that now Iraq is becoming our current day VN. We have no clear objective, and we are simply there with orders to basically provide target practice for the enemy, and then, only slightly engauge. He is a strong proponent of taking the gloves off if we need to go to war. Fighting a PC war will only get our service men and women killed without ever being able to declare victory. When the enemy fires from an apartment building at our troops, he advocates levelling the entire complex. After a while, he reasons that the "innocent civilians" will no longer lend a hand to the insurgents if they know they will be wiped off of the earth if they cooperate. If the insurgents have no sympathetic help, they will lose because they will have no place to hide. I find it hard to doubt his perspective given his credentials. It may not be the PC thing to do, but if you think about it, it very well could reduce the loss of lives on both sides as this battle drags out and we give more hope to the insurgents each passing day we do not take them out. If you don't think they use our fear of popular opinion against us every day, I think you are very mistaken.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
I have more respect for you now than I ever have. If that's all you were doing, then go for it. If you really believe some of the things you claim, I feel sorry for you.


:drama:

Yeah, I feel sorry for you too, Don. :moon: :D
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

dzalphakilo said:
We have no clear objective, and we are simply there with orders to basically provide target practice for the enemy, and then, only slightly engauge.

Yessir. Not my words, but I find a hard time disagreeing with this decorated veteran.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

I need to work on my quotes:o .

Reason I "quoted" you Dargo (where you quoted me) was that was not the info I had rec. this past weekend (and some where just back from Iraq within 2 weeks).
 
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Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

When the enemy fires from an apartment building at our troops, he advocates levelling the entire complex. After a while, he reasons that the "innocent civilians" will no longer lend a hand to the insurgents if they know they will be wiped off of the earth if they cooperate. If the insurgents have no sympathetic help, they will lose because they will have no place to hide.
I can't disagree with that. I would think it would be effective strategy. If you nuke an entire country, as some have suggested, you kill ALL the good with the bad. What's the point? Who would be left? What would happen with the smoke clears? Would Syria, Iran and the others who are even worse rush in to fill the void? Would we be worse off? Most likely.

But, if you take out one building, even if you have "collateral damage" in the form of innocent civilians, at least the civilians in the buildings on either side can see how it works. Of course, they may not have a choice. Either they're killed by the insurgents because they stand in their way, or they're killed by us because the insurgents got past them. Not sure how to reconcile that...
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Issue becomes that inncoent civilians who were "neutral" now may become your enemy.

Get your enemy to react to your actions and gain strenght through the people.

As per an earlier statement (SP?) we have become a police force which we should of tried to stay away from becoming.

The question is, are our losses accpetable for the intended mission?

On that note, what exactly is the "mission" in Iraq? I thought is was to remove Sadam, which I thought we did.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

dzalphakilo said:
On that note, per a previous post of mine that I regretted, can I ask, who here as been in war, has been shot at, had to kill another person where you can see thier eyes, and see a friend die?
Just curious.
Are you asking a serious question here or just continuing this ongoing discussion? It is a hell of a question to ask, however, I can answer the first tow without even trying,,,, But, I won't if it just for sake of continuing conversation..
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

LarryRB said:
Are you asking a serious question here or just continuing this ongoing discussion? It is a hell of a question to ask, however, I can answer the first tow without even trying,,,, But, I won't if it just for sake of continuing conversation..

Legitimate question.

So often those who rush into war are the ones who have never experienced it, for if they did, why would they wish it upon others?

On that note, I don't consider myself a passifist (sp?)

When I graduated from high school I was intent in serving in the military, which I did proudly, even though it was against my fathers wishes (his point to me was the since he served for over 20 years, he put in "enough time" for both of us, and he'd be damn if I wanted to be a "grunt")

"Evil" agression must be stopped, the question is where, how and when.

I happen to think that the "invasion" of Iraq was correct. I was, however afraid that after our ground forces had "secured" the country, we would become a "police force" which it seems we have now become.

This opens a bag of worms so to speak.

Also, since I now have the right to question our actions as a country, I do so, I don't have "blind faith" in our leaders.

I am now questioning the "how".

I don't think I'm wrong in assuming that EVERYONE here wants to see our troops come home alive, and that thier actions in Iraq will "make a difference".
I think this is one "issue" that we can all agree on.

When you have a difference of opinion (sp?) you need to build on the "small things". I don't think wanting all of our troops to come home alive and accomplish thier mission is a small thing.

By the way Dargo, they will be closing Walter Reed as everyone knows it. As far as I know, they will be "re-naming" (sp?) Bethesda to "Walter Reed".

Couldn't belive it when I read it.
 
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Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

OkeeDon said:
Either they're killed by the insurgents because they stand in their way, or they're killed by us because the insurgents got past them. Not sure how to reconcile that...

As I mentioned earlier, I'm honestly glad that I'm not commissioned with making such decisions. As you obviously noted, there isn't really an easy answer. I posted a suggestion from a decorated vet and his reasoning. I don't think it's a perfect solution, but I am more than frustrated with our troups being in the position they are in. I am not wanting to be the self appointed world's police force. I don't think it is our postion to be the world's police force, nor do I have any desire to pay for the attempt.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

as most of you know, I am involved with a military chopper group,. At first no one had a problem going to Iraq, A year later is a little ruffling because no WMd's are laying out in the open. Most of us overlook this because Sadam stalled the inspection teams for so long, that any probable WMD's are long well hidden, destroyed, dismantled or who knows what else. Most all of us on that net, me included, are getting frustrated because the cause has turned into another police occupation. It was forced on us in VN.. Those VN people, (vast majority but not every single one) layed back and let us do all their work. After a few years of this, it is now normal way of life,,,, It is not normal for us, but you do what the gvt asks to get done.. Iraq to me, is quickly becoming de-ja-vu all over again... I would pull everyone back to bases, and secure those first... Tell the new Iraq police and military, here you go. get off your ass and start doing your job. If they show they can do it, fine, if there are ten American bases, then close five right off and send that amount home... Keep pulling back one more base and it's occupants while keeping extreme pressure upon the new Iraqi police/military.. Standard pressure, political talks DO NOT WORK. THe one bad thing about us as Americans is, we have the past experience, we can't seem to learn from that and move on. Instead it is same ole, same ole.... TO know the future, we must study the past and it is here, that we all drop the ball.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

On that note, what exactly is the "mission" in Iraq? I thought is was to remove Sadam, which I thought we did.
Excellent question. Removing Saddam was a big part of it. The catch phrase was "regime change". You're right; we did that fast. There was never any doubt. If that's all it was, we'd have been home a long time ago, and almost 2,000 kids would still be alive.

However, that was the easy part. The other part was to "restore democracy". The theory was that if we could get a democracy established in a Muslim country in the Middle East, and get it to work, it would serve as an example for the rest of the Middle East and beyond. The idea was that once folks saw how great Iraq had become, they would want to be like them. That would solve all our problems.

In the beginning, our administration had a very simplistic view of how this would work. We would removed Saddam, and the grateful Iraqis would throng to the streets bearing flowers for our troops, laughing and dancing with joy that the benevolent United States had liberated them. Think of France in WWII as we tossed out the Germans and you'll have a fairly accurate picture of the way Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney and others thought it would be. It was to be such a happy scene that our boys would be home in no time, all of them. Heck, the administration didn't even bother with body armor or armor plating; they weren't going to need it.

There were folks outside the administration who were predicting that it would take more troops, more money and more time than the administration was projecting. They were ignored -- at least one general was fired for saying so. There were folks who were predicting that our actions would inflame the Muslim world, creating even more recruits to terrorism. They were ignored. They were also wrong -- it has become much, much worse than they predicted.

Even though this administration was elected on a platform that included strong opposition to "nation building", they abandoned their own principles and waded into a task to rebuild Iraq in a new image. They were going to have a new Constitution, free elections, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage (some of you may be too young to remember that campaign phrase from Herbert Hoover, just before the Great Depression). They thought it would be easy. They expected Iraqi oil money to pay for it.

None of the above, with the exception of a couple of sarcastic exaggerations, is my idea. It was all reported at the time. There were Congressional hearings. There were news conferences. Mostly, I watched C-Span where there is no political commentary and no explanations -- just a camera pointed at the speaker, listen to what he says and make up your own mind. Therefore, I wasn't influenced by CNN or Fox News or any other flavor. I just listened, and what I'm writing here is what I heard and saw.

Well, of course, it hasn't worked out very well for the administration. It has cost us vastly more money than they projected, yet they stubbornly hold on to their tax cuts and throw the Nation further into debt. It has taken much more time than was predicted. Almost all of their excuses, starting with WMD, have turned out to be empty. Not only was Saddam not the threat they said he was, it looks like there's a possibility he may win his trial! Instead of flowers and smiles, we are greeted every day with roadside bombs. Almost as many troops have been killed as the number lost in 9/11. Tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have already been killed. The insurgents are still pouring into the country. Instead of helping us win the war on terrorism, there are more terrorist recruits than ever. We have really ticked them off with our desecration of Muslim ideals, in the Abu Graib prison, in Guantanamo Bay, and in the general attitudes of many of our troops regarding "towel heads". We have violated our own principles by pre-emptively invading a nation that had not directly harmed us. The Constitution they developed is looking like it will foster a religious government similar to the Ayatollahs in Iran, and that Iran will have a great deal of influence in the "new" Iraq. This will likely lead to a lessening of Democracy after we pull out.

In other words, the entire gig is one massive SNAFU.

I do NOT advocate pulling out at this moment. I think we have to do something to pull this iron out of the fire, and retrieve as much benefit from the sacrifices of our young lives as possible.

I believe that the people running this war have less of a clue how to do that than we do. At the very least, EVERYONE involved in starting this war and running it in such a piss-poor manner must GO. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rice, Cheney, Liddy, Rove, ALL must be fired immediately. Bush must then reach out to members of both parties who can help him retrieve something. There are capable people on both sides who have been shut out by this administration, while they depend on their cronies and old hacks. If Bush does this NOW, he may save his legacy, and actually appear to finally be a President who takes decisive action on his own.

If he does not do it, I can see no other hope than Impeachment and removal from office. It is absolutely apparent that these people have totally screwed up this war, and must go. Then, we can devote ourselves into turning the situation around. I believe that good, intelligent people, even from the Republican party, can do the job once they get rid of these assholes.

I am NOT a yellow dog Democrat. I am NOT a far-left liberal. I can support a Republican team that has the best interests of the Nation at heart instead of some vague, undeclared agenda of their own. My entire premise is that these people have screwed up; that they have been screwing up with the possible exception of 9/11 and Afghanistan (and I worry that they're screwing that up), and they must be replaced. When the coach keeps losing, you fire the coach and get a new one.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Reuters News Service just posted this, it seems to offer some insight into the Wilson documents:



Bush aide denies ties to fake Iraq-Niger documents
By Adam Entous1 hour, 42 minutes ago

President George W. Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, denied on Wednesday that he or his staff received fake documents in 2002 that showed Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger, a claim that formed part of the administration's case for going to war.

After consulting with a member of his staff "to refresh my memory," Hadley told reporters that the documents were first obtained by the State Department and then shared with the CIA, and that he does not recall ever discussing the issue with Italian intelligence officials.

"Suffice to say they didn't come to me. They didn't come to the NSC," Hadley said, referring to the National Security Council.

Bush, in making a case for war in his 2003 State of the Union address, said there was evidence that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Africa to further apparent nuclear-weapons ambitions. Bush cited British intelligence as the source of the information.

The FBI has been investigating the origin of the forged documents. U.S. officials have said in the past that the information was partly traced back to Italian intelligence sources.

The White House acknowledged after the war that the intelligence was faulty and Hadley took the blame for the reference that showed up in Bush's State of the Union speech.

According to reports in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, Italian intelligence helped pass off forged documents that accused Iraq of trying to buy 500 tons of "yellowcake" uranium from Niger.

Focus has centered on Hadley because of his September 9, 2002, meeting with Italy's intelligence chief, Nicolo Pollari.

Exactly one month later, on October 9, 2002, an Italian journalist provided the U.S. Embassy in Rome with copies of documents about the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium sale, according to a U.S. congressional investigation. Copies of the documents were then sent to State Department headquarters and the CIA, the congressional report said.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office said last week that the government and Italian intelligence had no "direct or indirect role in the fabrication and the transmission of the 'fake dossier on Niger uranium."'

Backing up Berlusconi's account, the White House said earlier this week that U.S. officials who attended the September 9, 2002, meeting do not remember any discussion of the Niger claim or any exchange of documents.

ITALY'S ROLE?

Pollari is due to address an Italian parliamentary committee overseeing the intelligence service on Thursday at a closed-door meeting called to discuss the latest claims.

Asked if he or any member of his staff met with Italian intelligence outside the White House when the issue was discussed, Hadley said: "I can tell you my recollection. My recollection is no, not here, not anyplace else."

The Niger documents were declared forgeries by the International Atomic Energy Agency in March 2003.

The Niger issue has attracted renewed attention as U.S. special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald wraps up his investigation into the leak of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity. As part of his investigation, Fitzgerald has asked witnesses about the Niger report.

Bush's 2003 uranium claim fueled criticism from Plame's husband, former diplomat Joseph Wilson, that the administration twisted intelligence to bolster its case for war.

Wilson based his criticism in part on a CIA-sponsored mission he made to Africa in 2002 to check out reports that Iraq sought uranium from Niger. Wilson said the report was unsubstantiated, and later accused the White House of leaking his wife's identity in retaliation.
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

Then today, after hearings in the Italian parliamentary secret services oversight commission:

"Italian secret services warned the United States months before it invaded Iraq that a dossier about a purported Saddam Hussein effort to buy uranium in Africa was fake, a[n Italian] lawmaker said Thursday after a briefing by the nation's intelligence chief. "At about the same time as the State of the Union address, they (Italy's SISMI secret services) said that the dossier doesn't correspond to the truth..."

"Brutti said the warning was given in January 2003, but he did not know whether it was made before or after President Bush's speech. Brutti, a leading opposition senator, said SISMI analyzed the documents between October 2002 and January 2003."

"The United States and Britain used the claim that Saddam was seeking to buy uranium in Niger to bolster their case for the invasion, which started in March 2003. The intelligence supporting the claim later was deemed unreliable."

"Brutti said the commission was told that the documents were forged by Rocco Martino, whom he described as a former SISMI informant."

See the entire article: AP article

Ok, now it is clear that both Wilson and the Italian secret services warned that the Niger uranium story was bogus in advance of the invasion.

Who the heck is Rocco Martino and why would the US advance Martino's interests by invading?
 
Re: "When a government takes the country to war on lies and misinformation,"

California said:
Ok, now it is clear that both Wilson and the Italian secret services warned that the Niger uranium story was bogus in advance of the invasion.


But we should also bear in mind that the uranium story was only a small part of the overall evidence used to justify the invasion. While it is obviously false, and while it was obviously known prior to the invasion to be false, there was still a much larger body of evidence that suggested non-nuclear WMD existed.

So that begs the question did we (the USA, UK, Italy, Aus, Poland, etc) know if any of that was false evidence?
 
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