Thoughts on healthcare bill

[muleman]

"The special deals and payoffs are incidental to the [health care] bill in one sense; if they were all removed it would still be a bad bill. But in another sense, they reveal something essential about a government takeover of health care: it is all about looting, about how one group of people can tax and regulate others in an attempt to get something for nothing. All statist programs are rife with this kind of scheming, and they have to be, because whenever wealth is seized by force, there is a battle among the looters over how to divide the spoils." --columnist Robert Tracinski

 

[waybomb]

Yes, as in almost everything, follow the money.......

 

[mak2]

My hope for this bill is that it is the first step to a true universal healthcare plan. If our current system was so great, the industry would not have to donate $bizillions to politicans to keep it around.

 

[joec]

And hide the ads they run on TV under several different front groups.

 

[mak2]

5+ years or so ago I was a wingnut like the rest of these guys. I learned a lot about a single topic, healtcare. Now I am no longer a wing nut.

 

[joec]

Yes my son the doctor has changed his view too, especially after working for a while for an insurance company. He did a complete about face once he saw how they really work and being a doctor, priceless.

 

[waybomb]

And the government will make it all better, like, um, ah, hmm, well, I'm sure they made something less costly, more efficient, with little bureaucracy, sometime in history, I guess.

 

[joec]

Think post office bomb, perhaps they can't deliver a letter in a timely matter. Think about your local police department, fire department all are government. Perhaps you would prefer anarchay instead. You have read the idea behind the Constitution of the United States of America I'm sure.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[Av8r3400]

Let's see, an unconstitutional government take over of 20% of the economy.

In what way is this a good thing?


You don't even see it, do you?

 

[joec]

So now I'm a moron. Well I don't see the government taking over 20% of the economy and wonder where you get that number from so please in lighten this moron. All I see is shoring up the failed economic system and the auto industry by loaning money, you know they loan money for home loans too as well as guarantee the money you put in the bank that you won't lose it. Oh and the car industry would account if allowed to fail put over 3 million people out of work. I guess you are sad that this didn't happen, just let them fail for fear you might have to pay. Give me a break, but I'm sure you won't as I don't agree with you so I must be a moron.

Oh and the unconstitutional government just got voted out of office. Think Patriot Act, medaling in the Justice Department for political to move there agenda and get elected etc. Never mind the possibility that a few high level officials could be charged easily if the current administration didn't protect them.

 

[SShepherd]

Think post office bomb, perhaps they can't deliver a letter in a timely matter. Think about your local police department, fire department all are government. Perhaps you would prefer anarchay instead. You have read the idea behind the Constitution of the United States of America I'm sure.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

govt. run "businesses" and how their doing

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=301756&postcount=47


NASA:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...-capsule_N.htm

The problem is mostly the political system for not coming up with budgets that are passed and signed by the president so that NASA can go ahead with its financial plans, said W. Henry Lambright, a technology and public policy professor at Syracuse University. The budget for next year still has not been passed.
"We have a government that is dysfunctional," Lambright said. "I'm not blaming NASA. I think NASA is a victim of a political situation we have in this country."
But Nasawatch's Keith Cowing, a former engineer for the agency, said the problem is poor design and planning, repeating some of the problems of Apollo without learning the lessons of such disasters as the Apollo 1 fire.

National HIghways and bridges:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/us...1&pagewanted=2
A study released in May by the Urban Land Institute and Ernst & Young found that 83 percent of the nation’s transportation infrastructure was not capable of meeting the country’s needs over the next 10 years. The American Society of Civil Engineers, in its latest national report card, gave transportation infrastructure a D.
Meanwhile, there are urgent needs. The Interstate highway system turned 50 last year and is showing signs of age and inadequate upkeep. Around St. Louis, for instance, old bridges, rocky roads and tight ramp loops have led to a shutdown of parts of Interstate 64/Highway 40 — one of the most important corridors in the state — until late 2009.
"Too many American cities are spending far too much money on expensive rail transit projects, which are used for only 1 to 2 percent of local travel, and far too little on highway projects which are used for 95 to 99 percent of local travel,” Randal O’Toole, a senior fellow with the Cato Institute, said in an e-mail interview." (sounds a bit like the current healthcare proposal)

FDA:

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspi...icle55513.html
"Many of the nation's leading doctors, scientists and lawmakers now agree that the FDA is in crisis. Lurching from one disaster to another, the 102-year-old agency learns of dangers too late and then moves too slowly to remedy them. Insiders say it's woefully underfunded, dangerously understaffed and fractured by bitter internal tensions. Instead of depending on the FDA, Americans are doubting it -- and for good reason.

US postal service:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/03/news...tune/index.htm




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[joec]

I really don't see them as running it as loaning them money. You know like Ronald Reagan did with Chrysler when he was in office which made a nice profit for the country as I remember. I've also heard the GM is turning it around and expects to pay back pretty soon again with a nice profit for the US. As did the banks who can't wait to give what they owe back.

 

[joec]

SShephard have you thought about the fact that the current budget for these things where dialed back due to fighting two wars both of which lasted longer than WWII. Also the fact you have those sitting in the house and senate that fight every dollar being spent.

Now the Congress allocates all monies regardless and the President only has the power to sign it as written or veto it which can be over ridden by the congress if enough votes can be mustered to over ride a veto. The current president seems to actually be following the division of power in our constitution unlike the previous administration. However I wouldn't expect anything less since he is a constitutional scholar.

 

[Av8r3400]

Washington Post - 20%

Daily News Central - 20%

Real Clear Politics - 17%


You'll note that I edited the post, immediately after putting it up, eliminating the moron comment. I though it was over the top after reading it.

Now you can put your head back in the sand by believing that the government is going to save you by destroying everything this country was built on, one freedom at a time.

 

[joec]

I could show you several articles in other well know papers that say different but that is neither here nor there. I'll except where you get the 20% from.

Let me tell you a little about myself first. For your information I'm not either a Democrat or a Republican but a registered independent which I aways been with no history of registering for either party ever. I also didn't vote for Obama or McCain as neither showed me they had what I was looking for in a leader. I have never agreed with either side a 100% on every issue that comes up regardless. But will vote one way or the other if I feel the person can lead this country and believes in a majority of the things I believe in. I'm really more issue minded than accepting party lines like a lemming.

So with that said I saw more personal rights removed under the last administration than I have seen in my life with the Patriot Act, and that is a while 63 years.

During WWII this country matched its spending to equal the total GNP. This brought about income tax in the first place until then it didn't exist. This government has seemed to survive over 200 years under the current constitutional system with few amendments for the amount of time. Now it is still pretty young by Nation standards when compared to most others on the planet so hang in there.

Now as for sticking my head in the sand I'm not the type. If you expect me to bow down to your beliefs of what government is but not believe it doesn't work for us then you are the one that has your head in the sand not me. I've actually seen the world at a level you can't imagine in your worst nightmares and have the scars to prove it. You might actually learn to stop closing down any opinion other than your own as you just might learn what living is about if you where more open to opposing views that might be out of your box.

I guess I am a moron in believing that this country has a future to be proud of. If we think and listen to those we may not agree with we might learn some different ideas that will keep us going.

 

[fogtender]

They say 80% of Americans have Health Care, so they want to give Health Care to the other 20% that don't have it.

Many of those are here illegally but have universal health care where they come from... which is mostly Mexico.

Many of the Americans that don't have Health care don't want to spend the money on it. But instead want to buy cell phones, computers, Internet and the like instead of taking care of their health first or figured they don't require it... yet.

The there are those that don't have Health insurance because they didn't have it and then got a major medical issue and now the insurance companies won't insure them... Seems that a bad past in choices, makes for a bad future.

Our great Congress wants to destroy the 80% of Americans that have health insurance to match those that don't, but those that never bought insurance, never had any qualms about using an emergency room where they know they have to be treated for free if needed.

Now instead of going after the Health care one step at a time and fix what is wrong with the system, they are going to use a nuke to take out a beaver dam that required one stick of dynamite to get rid of the backed up water.

I am glad for the most part that I got my Cancer treatments behind me now, because the future isn't all that great when bean counters from the Government, whom have never been accountable, will decide who can be treated for what, with the considerations of how old they are and how long they may be able to work and pay taxes. They advertise that will be the case, but when costs get out of hand on any Government program, they always find places to cut at the basic level.

The crap about we won't pass the costs on to the middle class is crap, they already are. Pick up any bill you have electric, cell, phone or whatever and there is some kind of Federal Tax disguised as some other name for a tax on it. May only be a few dollars, but it is there, and will be on each and every bill you get and that is only the start, those weren't there ten years ago... and add up to hundreds of dollars a month in some cases for the average person.

I also get tired of hearing how all the other Countries have "Socialized Medicine", well they aren't the United States of America and I don't care, America isn't a Socialized Country.... Yet. I have worked for my Health care and have always had it for my family. At times it was a real burden, but I felt it was worth the effort and cut costs when needed.

Once you let the Camels nose into the tent during a sandstorm, you will soon be outside and the Camel is in the tent... The health care is nothing but a big fat nose... Besides, they don't have the money unless they print it, and that is going to finish us off as a Country with all the other scams Congress has come up with.

There, I feel better now....

 

[SShepherd]

Joe, I simply have no faith or trust in a 1 party supermajority. Unfortunatly, it seems both parties are merging into a big elitist pile of crap.

...........currently I'm a bit worried, that with the 24/7 news coverage of the earthquake in haiti, what are they (the gubment.) are trying to slide in the backdoor while we're distracted

 

[EastTexFrank]

Now instead of going after the Health care one step at a time and fix what is wrong with the system, they are going to use a nuke to take out a beaver dam that required one stick of dynamite to get rid of the backed up water.

I don't think that I have heard it put any more succinctly. Just sums it up to a "T".

 

[joec]

Boy do I tend to disagree with this assumption on your part. I don't have health care nor my wife. Nor does most of the unemployed as health care is based on being employed in this country unlike the rest of the world. Now my wife and I are classed as un-insurable due to pre existing conditions. By the way not a problem till we became over 50 now conditions we had in our youth are pre-existing but excepted by the same companies when group plans.

Most people working that get laid off can't afford Cobra to keep their insurance as they not only pay their premium as when they were working but also pay the employer's part also raising the price beyond the means of most un employed.

Now I have a big screen TV, cell phone and two cars and make a good living but all the money on the planet won't get me health care insurance, not even a discount plan. I live in Kentucky who happens to be government officials seemed to be owned by Humana who put a lot of money in the state to guarantee our reps votes.

My wife qualified for Medicaid so we pay 20% of her medical bills of the bills run up over the last year. My part of which has climbed to almost 6 figures though not there yet but close. So you are paying or someone is, for it now even if you don't realize it you are picking up 80% of her bills.

Our system of health care for profit doesn't work, never has and never will as long as there is a profit motive in it. If it doesn't pass this time around it will be another 50 years before it is even attempted again.

Now I'm pretty sure you are younger than I am but eventually you will need real medical attention and I hope you have a method of catching health care problems before they become life threating. If not think about what you wanted now this does come under the common good as it is good for all of us even if you are too blind to see it now.

Medicare was treated the same way but those on it now keep say don't mess with my insurance by having government take it over. These people are becoming delusional since Medicare is government run with few complaints other than Conservatives that think the only ones that should get a break are those that need it the least.

 

[joec]

Joe, I simply have no faith or trust in a 1 party supermajority. Unfortunatly, it seems both parties are merging into a big elitist pile of crap.

...........currently I'm a bit worried, that with the 24/7 news coverage of the earthquake in haiti, what are they (the gubment.) are trying to slide in the backdoor while we're distracted

Well partner I never had any faith in the party system period. They are both subject to lobbyist money and it isn't by party at all. Both parties to me suck at any given moment but at this moment I see the good that could come from health insurance for all but have serious doubts due to the money pumped into defeat it. This country has become a country of the rich, by the rich and for the rich and to hell with the rest of us. Just my personal opinion.

 

[EastTexFrank]

This country has become a country of the rich, by the rich and for the rich and to hell with the rest of us.

Yea, and if you'd ever lived in the country of the poor, by the poor and for the poor, you'd still be trying to figure out who the f**k was going to pay for it all. Just my honest opinion.

 

[EastTexFrank]

How about the 1% of the population that has 99% of the money, that is just my opinion since they made it on the backs of the rest of us. Or would you rather let them keep based on trickle down economics, or piss on us. Even Bush senior called it voodoo economics.

"How about the 1% of the population that has 99% of the money" ... So, what about them? If you want Bill Gates' money, do what he did to get it. Don't sit on your ass and bitch about it. Go invent the next computer operating system or anything else that this world desperately needs and can't do without. Don't complain because he or they did what you couldn't, wouldn't or didn't do. They made it by taking the chances that the rest of us were not willing to take.

Your post sounds like class envy at its worst. Whoops, I see you deleted your post.

 

[joec]

Yes I deleted it as there is no point in this discussion any longer. You have your mind made up and I have my opinion. No point in beating a dead horse much longer. No class envy on my part at all. For that you can take my word or assume I'm lying either way not worth the time. Must be something in the water in Texas, though I didn't sense it when I lived there.

 

[mak2]

Yes I deleted it as there is no point in this discussion any longer. You have your mind made up and I have my opinion. No point in beating a dead horse much longer. No class envy on my part at all. For that you can take my word or assume I'm lying either way not worth the time. Must be something in the water in Texas, though I didn't sense it when I lived there.

No joec, I dont think it is the water, I think it is the cool aid. If you dont agree completely with the wing nuts you must be stupid, a moron or soon there will be some other personal form of attack. Just remember, never, ever present any real facts or evidence, seems to make them even crazier.

 

[daedong]

Don't sit on your ass and bitch about it. Go invent the next computer operating system or anything else that this world desperately needs and can't do without. Don't complain because he or they did what you couldn't, wouldn't or didn't do. They made it by taking the chances that the rest of us were not willing to take.

Your post sounds like class envy at its worst. Whoops, I see you deleted your post.

Frank, many folk take risks, many folks work there arse off, many folks are smarter than Bill Gates. Bill Gates and others like him don't necessarily work any harder, make wiser decisions, or have a punt any more than lots of the population, Bill Gates was a lucky man, fact, just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Now no problem with that but we can't all do it, it does not stack up mathematically. There is only so much wealth to go round, we can't all make millions or billions, so the few that do have a moral obligation to society to give some back to those that made it possible to acquire their wealth, and tax is an efficient and fair way of doing this.

Americans generally more than any others seem to moan about sharing their wealth. seems to me the more you get the meaner you seem to get.

 

[muleman]

Americans generally more than any others seem to moan about sharing their wealth. seems to me the more you get the meaner you seem to get.

I was born mean and never got much money but I don't need the government to hand it out for me either. Bill Gates gives a bunch to charity unlike our rich politicians who play with OUR money!

 

[xsinawl]

I wonder how anyone can quote the Constitution and still support redistribution of wealth and fascism. Must be the government run schools...

 

[Bamby]

Hay muleman maybe you should join your neighboring Amish community seems they may have an exemption from the Obama care plan. According to some reports they will not have to join and are also exempt from any fines or repercussions.

Sources:

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_002213131.html

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20100109/NEWS02/301099964

http://www.opencongress.org/article...s-Groups-Exempted-from-the-Individual-Mandate

http://www.medpedia.com/news_analys...nce-Provisions-in-Both-House-and-Senate-Bills

Then again maybe we need to form a religion and form our own exemption ?

 

[SShepherd]

so the few that do have a moral obligation to society to give some back to those that made it possible to acquire their wealth, and tax is an efficient and fair way of doing this.


and thats the problem...giving is of your own free will, Tax is forced upon you. Whats fair? who decides how YOU should spend YOUR hard earned money? Someone with less?Someone who's exempt from those taxes (poloticians)?
Is it fair that one segment of the population carries the tx burden for the nation, and another pay none?
a flat tax, emposed on EVERY citizen is would would be fair.

BTW, Bill gates does give alot..

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx

"so the few that do have a moral obligation to society to give some back to those that made it possible to acquire their wealth"

Oh, and I do believe that would be called a Job-employeer/employee relationship-or it's a manuf./consumer relationship.

Yes society does have an obligation to the poor and down trodden, just as every person has an obligation to be a productive member of society and not on the govt. dole for their lifetime.

 

[muleman]

I would join up today if they would kill this bill. Funny how Chuck Schumer would support this since they don't vote even though I have tried to get them to go along to the polls. They will bitch to me about taxes but won't go to a town or school board meeting. As I tell them if you don't speak up they will keep taking your money. They have started letting their kids ride the school bus the last 2-3 years as I have told them it is safer than walking along a heavy traffic road. The bus picks them up and drops them at their school while hauling the english kids. They have even started to use the local public shuttles buses for some of their shopping.