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ST4 restoration of Frankie the Frankentrac
- Thread starter Jphoenix
- Start date
Jphoenix
Well-known member
If I had to do it over, I'd remove the heater boxes and go with one of those small diesel heaters. Now I have to figure out how the (long gone) heater box control cable route into the cab, I don't see provisions for them yet.
In mine they were flat bars that went through slots under the dash. I replaced the bent up bars with push rods made from 1/8 brass brazing rod.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Yes, I like that idea, push pull actuator - easy to source.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Frame looks good under the old floorboard, very little rust. The right front drive sprocket is leaning outboard - I suspect something going on with the lower pivot. Disassembly will reveal the problem there.
Now I shall roll Frankie into the garage and get to work on the chassis. Thinking about new track belts, these are pretty old and cracked - any suggestions for where to get them? I got new belts for the SkiDozer from Brad - but sadly that's no longer an option
Now I shall roll Frankie into the garage and get to work on the chassis. Thinking about new track belts, these are pretty old and cracked - any suggestions for where to get them? I got new belts for the SkiDozer from Brad - but sadly that's no longer an option
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Belting in not tough.
Look at the ply's in the belt....Probably 2 or 3 ply
Belting is available with a heavy rubber cover on the "Work" side (Grousers) and a thinner cover on the non contact side.
Contact a local supplier of conveyor belting.....There are many choices available....Heat resistant, oil and chemical resistant....and a myriad of other choices.....
DO NOT TELL THEM YOU ARE USING IT FOR A SNOW CAT..
Back when I was shopping for belts for the 2100 I mentioned snow cat to one outfit and they immediately turned cold and said they could not help me....
The belting issue is not "Snow cat special" as many would have you believe.....The stuff is made for doing work....Tensile strength, number of fabric ply's, type of fabric....Type of rubber covers.
There is no such thing as snow cat special purpose belting.....NOW THERE ARE outfits that make replacement belts for cats....And they are as bad as used car salesmen ....
The old belts will have stretched...A LOT over the years......Go by the sprocket pitch (Nominal) and do the math.....
With this data you can build some nice new belts that will work well.....
Make some jigs to drill the holes in the correct locations......BRAD POINT DRILLS work sweet for drilling rubber belts..
These have a center point and outer cutters and do not tear up the belt....
Aluminum jigs will work sweet...
LOOK UP CONVEYOR BELTING ONLINE.....
A material that is designed to haul crushed rock will work well.....It is abrasion resistant.....
Start by checking to see what is there now as far as thickness and ply count.... Then move ahead.......
The material can be SLIT to the width you need when ordering.....
Make sure of the length and order a tad long and do the final cut yourself to get the connections in pitch correctly
Just an FYI
There are companies that have cat belts made to order...Width...length....ply's and other specs with the edges sealed and holes punched ...all ready to go.......The base material is still a STANDARD product.
Many of the ski resort shops used to buy their belting in huge rolls and they made all their own belts to fit....
The belting was pre cut as far as width goes.....The shop would jig drill the holes and put the tracks together.......
With today's MEGA $$$$$$$$$$$ groomers and the huge price tag to ski.....The companies may order factory stuff.?????
Another point
There are many vendors that sell "Used" belting.....
Personally I would not go this route.....No way to really tell what you are getting.
You want to use belting that has a LOW stretch characteristic ...
A conveyor (AS long as the tensioners can deal with the stretch) Does not care.
Keeping the grouser pitch as close to nominal is important....A stretchy belt is going to cause issues with the sprockets climbing ....
Look at the ply's in the belt....Probably 2 or 3 ply
Belting is available with a heavy rubber cover on the "Work" side (Grousers) and a thinner cover on the non contact side.
Contact a local supplier of conveyor belting.....There are many choices available....Heat resistant, oil and chemical resistant....and a myriad of other choices.....
DO NOT TELL THEM YOU ARE USING IT FOR A SNOW CAT..
Back when I was shopping for belts for the 2100 I mentioned snow cat to one outfit and they immediately turned cold and said they could not help me....
The belting issue is not "Snow cat special" as many would have you believe.....The stuff is made for doing work....Tensile strength, number of fabric ply's, type of fabric....Type of rubber covers.
There is no such thing as snow cat special purpose belting.....NOW THERE ARE outfits that make replacement belts for cats....And they are as bad as used car salesmen ....
The old belts will have stretched...A LOT over the years......Go by the sprocket pitch (Nominal) and do the math.....
With this data you can build some nice new belts that will work well.....
Make some jigs to drill the holes in the correct locations......BRAD POINT DRILLS work sweet for drilling rubber belts..
These have a center point and outer cutters and do not tear up the belt....
Aluminum jigs will work sweet...
LOOK UP CONVEYOR BELTING ONLINE.....
A material that is designed to haul crushed rock will work well.....It is abrasion resistant.....
Start by checking to see what is there now as far as thickness and ply count.... Then move ahead.......
The material can be SLIT to the width you need when ordering.....
Make sure of the length and order a tad long and do the final cut yourself to get the connections in pitch correctly
Just an FYI
There are companies that have cat belts made to order...Width...length....ply's and other specs with the edges sealed and holes punched ...all ready to go.......The base material is still a STANDARD product.
Many of the ski resort shops used to buy their belting in huge rolls and they made all their own belts to fit....
The belting was pre cut as far as width goes.....The shop would jig drill the holes and put the tracks together.......
With today's MEGA $$$$$$$$$$$ groomers and the huge price tag to ski.....The companies may order factory stuff.?????
Another point
There are many vendors that sell "Used" belting.....
Personally I would not go this route.....No way to really tell what you are getting.
You want to use belting that has a LOW stretch characteristic ...
A conveyor (AS long as the tensioners can deal with the stretch) Does not care.
Keeping the grouser pitch as close to nominal is important....A stretchy belt is going to cause issues with the sprockets climbing ....
Last edited:
Sno-Surfer
Active member
Wow, really going to town on that! It's what was really needed too. Lots of solid stuff but needed some sorting out. On those heater boxes, how come you didn't just reuse the old ones? It thought they were in decent shape and generally better quality than the aftermarket ones. I did notice the old ones were cut off but just curious why new ones? Also Cidertom is right about the heater levers being just a flat steel piece with notches in it if I remember right. However, I never really needed much if any heat in there. It seemed to be warm enough without it. I did try to get some heat on the windshield to defrost it but I never felt the need for more heat inside and I generally like it pretty warm inside. Great work though on this and really looking forward to seeing this out in the wild.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
The heater boxes weren't that bad as you say, but the J-pipes were pretty rusted, so I figured I might as well replace them while I'm in there - also, you cannot remove the right side heater box/J-pipe without removing the engine due to the length of the lower exhaust stud - so just being preventive is all.
I'm going back in with simple push-pull levers into the dash to control heat and defrost. Simple and inexpensive solution.
I'm learning as I'm going - it's a pretty simple machine, but I think the foam filled tires are going to be an interesting challenge from what I've read on the forum. Keeps me out of the bars at night
Sno-Surfer
Active member
Yes I never did tackle those tires but I was always surprised they just kept on going as they were. They looked bad when I first got it and once I got the sprockets cleared a bit with the longer springs I just kept using them. But I had a couple spare tires with it that I never used. But yes, I imagine getting those off and cleaned up is going to be a chore but looks like you have the skills. Thanks for posting all the progress.The heater boxes weren't that bad as you say, but the J-pipes were pretty rusted, so I figured I might as well replace them while I'm in there - also, you cannot remove the right side heater box/J-pipe without removing the engine due to the length of the lower exhaust stud - so just being preventive is all.
I'm going back in with simple push-pull levers into the dash to control heat and defrost. Simple and inexpensive solution.
I'm learning as I'm going - it's a pretty simple machine, but I think the foam filled tires are going to be an interesting challenge from what I've read on the forum. Keeps me out of the bars at night
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
JP
You are welcome.
I spent a buttload of hours on the phone and doing other investigation work on track belts.
After finding out the real honest scoop....I was not amused...Although much of the info out there did not surprise me.
Too many outfits trying to cut a fat hog ya know.....
Same story goes for Cat tires.....Yessssssssssss...there are heavy service tires on the market and the light duty trailer tires are not up to the challenge.
10 ply heavy service stuff is out there... Urethane fill is the best plan.....The tire can literally be a RAG and the cured urethane donut will get you home.....
Tubeless tires suck....(Unless filled ) The side load of the tire guides is tough on sidewalls....Especially on big tracks....The smaller units...not so much
You are welcome.
I spent a buttload of hours on the phone and doing other investigation work on track belts.
After finding out the real honest scoop....I was not amused...Although much of the info out there did not surprise me.
Too many outfits trying to cut a fat hog ya know.....
Same story goes for Cat tires.....Yessssssssssss...there are heavy service tires on the market and the light duty trailer tires are not up to the challenge.
10 ply heavy service stuff is out there... Urethane fill is the best plan.....The tire can literally be a RAG and the cured urethane donut will get you home.....
Tubeless tires suck....(Unless filled ) The side load of the tire guides is tough on sidewalls....Especially on big tracks....The smaller units...not so much
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Thanks Snowy, the big wheels are urethane filled on this machine (heavy) so will go back with that, saves looking for tubes. Getting the big not off the right hand drive sprocket was fun - broke my 40 year old 1/2 breaker bar, finally got the heat wrench out and spun it off with the impact. No threads were damaged during that drama.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Found these, from a local dealer. I'm asking for a quote, looks like they may work for the big tires: https://commercial.purcelltire.com/tires/view/307144/goodyear-snow-plow-450r16/
J5 Bombardier
Well-known member
I couldn't find them on their site ,tough navigating. Be interesting to see if Goodyear started production again . Make sure your sitting down when the quote comes.........15 yrs ago we bought around 40 tires for 100 bucks Canadian each, should have bought 100 of them.... J5 Bombardier
those are the one I run. they have done a great job.
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Always seems that the hot wrench gets in the action sooner or later....Glad the thing came apart without damage.
My 2100 came with junk rags for tires.....Front two were filled ....but the tires were crap....
Only way to get those apart is to cut the tire across the "Face" with the sawzall down close to the wheel...Then cut around just above the bead wires.
Once the carcass is off...then pry the beads off the rim.....Plain ugly.....
I finally scored some 10 ply radial tires the right size.....
These older machines of many brands used whatever the builders could scare up.....Tires and wheels are now tough to find for many older cats.....
Some parts were custom made and no longer available....Then ya get creative and make your own stuff.....
My 2100 came with junk rags for tires.....Front two were filled ....but the tires were crap....
Only way to get those apart is to cut the tire across the "Face" with the sawzall down close to the wheel...Then cut around just above the bead wires.
Once the carcass is off...then pry the beads off the rim.....Plain ugly.....
I finally scored some 10 ply radial tires the right size.....
These older machines of many brands used whatever the builders could scare up.....Tires and wheels are now tough to find for many older cats.....
Some parts were custom made and no longer available....Then ya get creative and make your own stuff.....
Jphoenix
Well-known member
I've got some work to do on the front drive sprocket pivots, both are bent slightly, I see what Western Auto has done, I'll probably do something similar. In the meantime, I'm tackling the bent left bogie support tube - the weld is cracked through and easiest solution is to simply remove and replace the square tube that forms the bogie support. Engineering on this doesn't impress me, it's just a 2.25 square tube .120 wall (or metric equivalent, both dimensions seem to be a bit more) welded to the side of the left frame rail, only the 2" angle supporting it diagonally, the load goes up, so no real support in that direction. I'm going to have to think about how to get better support for it besides the welds. Or maybe it's OK like this of the welds are good?
The big wheel axles ride in UHMW polyethylene bushings are in great shape - no wear noticed on either one.
Bogie support tube cracked and bent.
Doesn't take much to remove the tube.
2.25 square channel is not a common size , so order it in and should be here in a couple days. Meantime, I'll work on removing the bogie axles - they are well and truly frozen in place (as are the front sprocket pivots), so Nature's Loctite will keep me busy over the holiday weekend. Also the handbrake mechanism is interesting and also frozen in the position shown, lots to scrape, sand, clean and paint. Plus some work with the oxy rig to coax some of these steel bits out of their slumber.
The big wheel axles ride in UHMW polyethylene bushings are in great shape - no wear noticed on either one.
Bogie support tube cracked and bent.
Doesn't take much to remove the tube.
2.25 square channel is not a common size , so order it in and should be here in a couple days. Meantime, I'll work on removing the bogie axles - they are well and truly frozen in place (as are the front sprocket pivots), so Nature's Loctite will keep me busy over the holiday weekend. Also the handbrake mechanism is interesting and also frozen in the position shown, lots to scrape, sand, clean and paint. Plus some work with the oxy rig to coax some of these steel bits out of their slumber.
chowderman
Well-known member
when I first saw the pix of the (right) sprocket leaning outboard . . .
two causes came to mind:
#1 - a fairly severe impact with an immovable object
#2 - the tension bar is offset - the eye bolt has slid to the right making an offset pull worse....
since both left&right are bent out of shape,,, a design weakness is right up there on the list....
the description of the bogie tube / support beam for the front sprocket assembly . . . that's likely the root cause.
it just ain't heavy dutyish enough . . . .
odd ball off the wall ideas . . .
- replace the support beam with something seriously heavier duty - as far back into the chassis as workable
- if nothing standard size works, two thick section angle iron pcs, welded into a tube
- use a spacer in the axle tube to prevent the tension bar from migrating outward, minimizing the offset pull
- a Z-bend in the tension bar to keep the tension force centered on the support beam
- increase the gusset size/dimensions, tube-to-support
- extend the support beam and add a gusset bean-to-tube in front of the tube
sigh . . and all that severely subject to "space available" . . .
two causes came to mind:
#1 - a fairly severe impact with an immovable object
#2 - the tension bar is offset - the eye bolt has slid to the right making an offset pull worse....
since both left&right are bent out of shape,,, a design weakness is right up there on the list....
the description of the bogie tube / support beam for the front sprocket assembly . . . that's likely the root cause.
it just ain't heavy dutyish enough . . . .
odd ball off the wall ideas . . .
- replace the support beam with something seriously heavier duty - as far back into the chassis as workable
- if nothing standard size works, two thick section angle iron pcs, welded into a tube
- use a spacer in the axle tube to prevent the tension bar from migrating outward, minimizing the offset pull
- a Z-bend in the tension bar to keep the tension force centered on the support beam
- increase the gusset size/dimensions, tube-to-support
- extend the support beam and add a gusset bean-to-tube in front of the tube
sigh . . and all that severely subject to "space available" . . .
I wouldn't bother trying to free the front sprocket pivots - they seem to get welded in with rust. If you cut them off and grind flush with the chassis rail, the old tube will punch out leaving the original holes correctly aligned - you just need new tube and spindles making, then you can weld in with better support pieces.
Sno-Surfer
Active member
Boy all the memories are flooding in, lol! That bogie support is a weak area on these and I know I had it welded a couple of times, same with the upper bogie tire support bracket. I'm not a welder so I just took it in to the local shop each time. And that ebrake handle, I tried a few times to free that thing up and never could get it to move! That front axle was always wonky looking too and now I can see why. Must have hit something hard at some point. At this rate, I think you're still going to make it out this season.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Great suggestion P, I like it - and I like the rectangular tube support idea. That seems the best way to go, Once I get the old bits out, I can square up the new tube and spindle and weld it up.
Sno, the old welds tried - but there just wasn't enough meat left in that tube to grab on to, but it's an easy fix - it's all clean now, just need to wait for some tube to come in.
I think the track drive sprocket mounts are OK as designed, just suffering from 40 years of use, plus there is some geometry going on here. Cidertom mentions that the spacers aligning the transaxle mount are important to be correctly squared as they control chain alignment, tension, etc.
So, ignoring track tension setting for a moment, first step is to get the variator drive sprockets located in the correct position - that by aligning the transaxle mounts so that the chain drive sprockets are square to, and equal distance from, the large chain driven sprockets on the front axles. Remember that the right chain had lots of slack with the axle housing adjustment way forward - so far forward that it was bending the (steel!) engine compartment sidewall cutouts:
So, if the variator is not correctly mounted or aligned, that right hand chain is going to be loose and tightening it by moving the axle housing adjustment forward can fix the chain slack (as Sno-Surfer did) but also to get the big wheel farther away from the track sprockets that were chewing up the big wheel. We're dealing with a few geometric constraints and tolerance stack-up here.
Back to the variator mounting - the two long bolts on the bottom of the variator axle housing should be adjusted carefully to support the variator axle housings against the pull of the chain - without putting strain on the variator housings. On this machine, there is no rectangular, radiused washer that nests inside the big C channel where the big bolts are tightened:
That C channel is also slightly bent, this leads me to believe the variator needs to be properly aligned in the frame with respect to the front axle housings.
Then, next step is to center the front axle housings with the track drive sprockets, all squared up - in the center of their fore and aft travel and install the chains. The chain length is easily adjusted by adding, or more likely in this case, removing links, with final adjustment using the big long adjuster screws, which are in good condition.
Once the variator, chains and drive sprocket axle housings are happy and centered, I can deal with the big wheel clearance to the track drive sprockets, initial indications are they will clear OK. The big front wheel axle bushings are good with no play - but they (and the bogies and rear big wheel) needs some alignment adjustment. Currently thinking about how all that works.
Finally, I'll adjust the track length to provide plenty of tension adjustment. Reading this forum shows the tracks can be slightly looser than book because of snow build-up, etc. All the bushings in the big wheel axles look great, they're all that black UHMW-looking material that keeps them tight.
The bogie truck axles are frozen and I have them soaking in Kroil to free them up. The right side bogie truck mounting looks OK, no cracks - but I'll remove the U-bolts and inspect closely before cleaning it all up.
Interestingly, the rear big wheels appear to provide no support to the machine - they are not suspended, they just rotate on their axle and tension the track - so all the weight is on the four bogie wheels and the big wheel. Am I understanding that correctly?
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Yeah, I think the front fenders may have been in contact with something in their storied past!
Yes, you are correct the rear wheel is track radius and tension. in real soft snow it may bear some weight, but most is on the bogies and the front wheel in the big wheel rigs. reminder, the adjusting rods for both the chains and rear wheel are NOT SAE threads.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Well, that was easy. As Puckle suggested, I cut the front axle housing pivot pins and removed the housings, ground down the remainder and punched out the cores with my rivet gun. Ordered some steel bushing and rod, should be here next week. Meanwhile - back to sanding, wire-wheeling, cleaning and rusty bolt removal,
Jphoenix
Well-known member
Why do they call it a frame-off when it's really body off?? Now I can clean up the relatively minor rust, probably need to replace the lower rear angle, rest of the frame is good. Easier to weld that left hand bogie support back on as well - and to square up the front of the frame for new sprocket axle housing clevis mounts.
Below - the C-channel that support the rear transaxle mount and variator tension rods is slightly bent, need to straighten that out. It may contribute to the variator geometry misalignment, I'll have to see.
Below - the C-channel that support the rear transaxle mount and variator tension rods is slightly bent, need to straighten that out. It may contribute to the variator geometry misalignment, I'll have to see.
Snowy Rivers
Well-known member
Yeah.....I have never understood the Frame off/body off thing
GROUND UP REBUILD....
My son in law volunteered us to help one of his sons buddies....The frame on his Land Cruiser had rusted out nearly completely in some places that mud/dirt collect.....
That was a real nightmare.....
A lot of the material was riveted together..... and we had to make patterns and in some instances guess at what the part looked like....(We did not have another truck to look at) 1985 Cruiser
The cat is looking good....Once you get the frame and parts fixed.....Gonna be a sweeeeeet ride.
BEST PART....You can get at things to fix them.......
Great pictures....Thanks so much for sharing......
GROUND UP REBUILD....
My son in law volunteered us to help one of his sons buddies....The frame on his Land Cruiser had rusted out nearly completely in some places that mud/dirt collect.....
That was a real nightmare.....
A lot of the material was riveted together..... and we had to make patterns and in some instances guess at what the part looked like....(We did not have another truck to look at) 1985 Cruiser
The cat is looking good....Once you get the frame and parts fixed.....Gonna be a sweeeeeet ride.
BEST PART....You can get at things to fix them.......
Great pictures....Thanks so much for sharing......
Jphoenix
Well-known member
UPS dropped off the thick wall tube I order for new sprocket bushings. Opened up the holes to fit the 1.375" die. tube and now I need to get the supports properly aligned and tacked in place. I'll add some rectangular supports similar to what Puckle did to beef them up a bit - should be good for another 35 years.
Lots of suspension and drive parts to clean, should keep me busy for a while.
Lots of suspension and drive parts to clean, should keep me busy for a while.
Jphoenix
Well-known member
I squared up the front sprocket drive housing pivot pin bushings, they measure exactly the same distance from the center square tube that the engine/trans mount attaches to, so both bushings are located exactly the same distance from the chain sprockets and are square to that longitudinal line. Beefed them up with the Puckle Special channels. The ID of the pivot bushings are .875" because the old bushings and pivot pins are some kinda metric equivalent of .781" and a 3/4" pin would be too loose, so I'm going to open up the pin holes in the axle mounts from .781" to .875" so that a 7/8" pin will fit, plenty of material left in those housing mounts to accommodate hole being enlarged less than .100" on the diameter.
Still cleaning parts in my spare time
Still cleaning parts in my spare time