NEW SNOWCAT DESIGN INFO

[MNoutdoors RIP]

O.K. If you could be part of a design team to build a new snowcat what would
you like to see.

Things like what speed do you want,weight of unit,track width,steel or aluminum grousers,hydrostatic or mechanical,diesel or gas engines,deck size or just people haulers.

What would you as a user spend on a new snowcat ?

After everybody has a say in the needs and wishes of this unit we may build one.

Now we realize that the opinions may vary, but never the less it is your opinion.

 

[Melensdad]

Just my opinion, but I believe there is a market for an inexpensive cabin access snowcat for carrying people. I've got an Aktiv Snow Trac, and I've been watching the prices on them climb. As I read the posts here in the Snowcat area of the ForumsForums I see a lot of people buy older equipment simply to get to their hunting cabin or weekend family cabin.

So it seems to me that there is room in the marketplace for a low cost, basic people hauler that is easy to drive, easy to maintain and reliable.

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Were not sure how to correct the poll at the top till Doc tells us how, So ignore it for now

 

[Doc]

Boggie,
Just let me or Bob know what you want it to say. All of the mods have edit capability for these kinds of mistakes. So any of us can fix it for you. Just post what you want the poll to say and one of us will edit it.
No problem,
Doc

 

[BigAl]

Good Morning Boogie ,
I asked this same question a while back and got some pretty good suggestions . It can be found under the The perfect snowcat ??? post. Maybe it will save some time and give you a idea of the perfect recreational snowcat . I actually thought seriously about manufacturing a personal snowcat a while back and then" reasoning" took over and got me back on track . My wife is named "reasoning"

You seem to be very talented . I like your work .

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Doc, If you could remove the poll that would be fine ......



EDIT BY BOB: boggie, rather than remove the poll I edited it so that I think it might help you with a basic size/configuration.

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Thanks Bob that should work ..............

 

[mtntopper]

Brad,
Small people carrier snowcat (5 people, under 3500#GVW) It should also have some cargo carrying capacity. We need to get the beer keg in to the house along with some groceries. Mechanical steer with a gas engine in the range of 140 horsepower.

The 1500 LMC is a great base model to look at for design of a basic mechanical drive unit for everyday use. The VMC is an example of a diesel/hydrostatic that fits the needs of many people and utility users. Both of these do weigh in at more than 3500 lbs gvw.

Do not forget about all of the people who are building remote homes only accessible via snowmobile or snow cat for several months a year. In the next 5 years in our area we will go from 2 families to over 8 who plan to live year round in this area. Large cabins/homes are being built at an alarming rate and our local county road and bridge department will not even plow the county portion of the road. Snow mobile or snow cats will have to be used to commute as required.

Bill

 

[Melensdad]

Small people carrier snowcat (5 people, under 3500#GVW) It should also have some cargo carrying capacity. We need to get the beer keg in to the house along with some groceries.

Bill, I think this pretty much describes a Snow Trac pretty well. A ST4 weighs about 2600#, holds up to 7 with some gear inside and most of it outside on the side rails. It will easily hold 5 inside with a lot of groceries inside the cabin and the excess outside on the rails.

The downside to the Snow Trac is that I don't consider the track design to be well suited to low snow conditions. I would favor a Snow Trac that had tracks similar the tracks of a Bombardier J5 design. It would be good for most snow conditions and also could easily manage the woods, gravel, etc. Wider track width could be optionally offered for deep/powder snow conditions. In standard configuration, I think it would be ideal to keep the width at roughly 6' wide so it could be carried on a standard low bed 7000# trailer.

Something like a Subaru boxer engine, or a VW TDi diesel would have more than enough power and still offer the compact size needed if a mechanical steering system was used. I strongly prefer the front engine design with a traditional steering wheel because it is more "car like" and I think more user friendly as a cabin access snowcat with easy access through the rear into the cabin area. Flip up seats like are in ARLOWS Snow Trac would make it even better.

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Andy @ UTV pretty much used the 1500 as the basis of the RT01 and RT02
but your right they are heavier and more dollars than the average person is going to shell out as a snow transport. the hydraulic designs are always slower and harder for the average person to trouble shoot we have built hydrostatic's that go 40-50 mph but to expensive. 19mph would be about as fast as the less expensive systems would allow. which is my opinion would be fast enough?

We are thinking more along the lines of a BR 100 plus size but a little wider and longer. but bring the operator up out of the tub with better view. 3 man front with a removable 3 man cube on the back with heat so you have the choice of cargo or people somewhere in the area of 32" tracks about 10-12 feet long and about 6 feet wide......... just some thoughts would like to price out at about 40,000 retail and keep the weight down to about 3900 pounds our about $ 10/pound like fish you know

 

[Melensdad]

Personally I would not buy a 2 cabin snowcat where the operator and the passengers sit in different cabins if I was buying a snowcat for back country personal cabin access. I think the 1500 5 passenger cabin, the Snow Trac 7 passenger cabin or the old Thiokol 601 full body cabins are better for the personal users. I see the single cabin designs as a positive for utility companies who need to transport people as they can all talk to each other while they are driving to the site. If you have a split cabin design then you need to install a headset system to allow the people to talk to each other, which drives up the price.

What is the advantage to the mid-engine design? While it might make the snowcat a bit better in deep snow, for 85% of the conditions I'd be willing to bet that a front engine would work without any problem and will allow for one large cabin area. I'm not saying the Snow Trac is the best design, but a modern version of it should be cheap to build, and it is light (2600#), compact (6'2" wide x 12' long), holds 7 peoople+ some gear, and obviously very capable of handing most of the snow conditions around the globe. Why not improve it with a watercooled engine, upgrade the systems all around and offer something like a modern version?

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

We are thinking more uncoventional than that removable back wall of front cab that holds 3 kind of gasketed and snap clamped then if you want you unsnap the back wall lift the rear cab( aluminum 3 man ) into position snap in place and pin down. and also thinking rear engine design behind what would be the back of the second cabin keeping all noise out of the cabins.....

keep the feed back coming ................ at this rate we will have it nailed down by next week........

 

[mtntopper]

Noise rules/laws are an issue for all new snow cat manufacturing. The government will regulate the cabin noise level on new snow cat production to protect the public/consumers. ROPS may also be an issue on snow cats to protect the consumer and manufacturer .

I like the idea of the operator up and forward in the cab for ease of operation and greater visibility. High speeds are only an issue with people who are not familiar with all terrain operations of snow cats. The suspensions are not capable sustained of high speeds in most snow cats and all terrain usage.

Two different track design for addressing different user markets/needs should be offered. Narrow tracks suitable for all terrain/dirt/rock/snow and a deep snow track for the dedicated snow user with a psi of less than .75 psi.

Offer different cab models of 2 passenger to 6 passenger. The buyer can pick what they need storage or passenger capacity with limited storage as is offered by current manufacturers.

Price is the big factor and I think Brad is looking at the price structure carefully that will be needed to sell snow cats at around a max of 50K for all the bells and whistles and 30K for bare bones units.

 

[BigAl]

Brad ,
Have you ever considered using a "KT7 style" Fiberglass body for the new design ? Maybe not the same, but something similar . They would be pretty light wieght . I am willing to let you come and take any measurements or ideas from it, that you want too. It could easily be extended for seating for six with a few minor changes .

I have just been contacted my a local group of investors, this past week who are interested in producing these KT7 units commerically for the Recreational user . I'll write a seperate Thread about this .
Al

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Al, anything is up for consideration you have to design what the people want, what is built well, safe, easy to work on, and the price they will pay.

You can really fit seven in their? how is it to work on the engine area?does the center lift off for easy access to the engine. The center of gravity sure looks good but is that at a loss to your view? we have never been real big fiberglass fans..... we would be more inclined to go aluminum and then powder coat.... The drill rig we built was all powder coated inside and out.
we are open to many ideas at this point. main focus is on cost, saftey,user freindlyness, some what fashionable helps too... Now don't get me wrong Al, I'm not saying your KT4.5 is not in style no really we need to see it up close............

Brad

 

[BigAl]

You can really fit seven in their? how is it to work on the engine area?does the center lift off for easy access to the engine. The center of gravity sure looks good but is that at a loss to your view?

Brad

Six people for sure ,with a few minor changes in the body length by about 12 inches . The center section does come off for easy access to the complete motor area and this could be set up with quick disconnect fastners to made even faster .

Once you have the new fiberglass molds, that can be manufactured in Mexico cheaply, the rest is easy .Just use a "chop gun" and reinforcing plywood at the stress points . Color can be done in the gel coat

 

[mbsieg]

Boggie, what did you think of the Raidtrac you had other than being underpowered and ugly????

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

They have their place... the one we had was like yours with the 30" tracks
We liked the grouser style, simple design, road rough on hard pack, engine was simple but small and forgein, turned good,never had a chance to test in deep snow, but had good numbers for PSI, the cone clutches were small but functional,not a bad unit by any means.......The gentleman that bought it was here getting parts for his other machine one day an decided he needed it for ice fishing so we parted it with it.his choice was a four wheeler or that and he chose the Raid-Trac

Brad

 

[mbsieg]

Brad what would you do to make the Raidtrac an all around good unit I have been contemplating making it Hydro powered. What other weak points did you notice? They do perform well in deep powder. On the flat Grade it worked great, 4-5ft of powder on a 30-40% grade it had its hands full but we made it up, it took a few runs to make it. I like the size and weight of the machine, easy to trailer, room for Passengers and supplies. What are your thoughts??

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Well, We did not get any measurments when it was here . Without a change to the front end for space your options might be limited. If their was room my first thought would be install a automatic with about 58 hp and you would have a nice unit. still think it rode rough. but based on that compact design that Mark uses when he builds them. hydro would work fine you would loose speed and gain weight .Rear drives always do better climbing.

Mark has a small diesel unit on his site now......www.raidtrac.com

 

[Catless]

I would vote for a 4 to 5 passenger sno-cat with a small cargo/truck bed. Think 4-door, Toyota Tacoma with a short-bed. Four-door P.U.'s selling like "Hotcakes" at the moment (in the U.S. and long before in S.A.).

See the 602 Thiokol in the Gallery Section of Safety One's website for an example. Could be converted to 6 to 9 passenger on request. I would personally like to see a 5-passenger unit with a small truck bed in the back to haul the "keg", building supplies, dogs, (or whatever). Should be able to lash a 4*8 sheet of plywood (or 2!) to it somehow. Ski rack/building supply rack a must........

Cost? Willing to pay? I just bought that 4-door Tacoma with a short-bed for ????????

Great thread!

I am likely to buy a "beater" Tucker and convert it to my needs unless a good alternative shows up.

The ideal (for me) cat utilizes the Tucker 4-track/pontoon design - plus a winch on the front, winch on the back, double cab design, short cargo bed.

My 2-cents.

Thanks for asking!

I would have voted in the poll but there did not seem to be a good fit.

grd

 

[mtncrawler]

Start building LMC 1200's again. Chose an injected gasoline engine, a 5-speed automatic, and start building OC-12 differentials again. For a versatile performer you aren't going to do any better than this without using diesel hydrostatic$$$$$.

 

[MNoutdoors RIP]

Thanks everybody We like to here what you have say We have designed a differential have yet to test in a snowcat it does not drag the Hp of the machine down like a convential controlled differential dont get me wrong they do work and have worked for years. The T-16 was first which actual was used in the Military Bren gun Carrier in the 30's and is what most of the Bombardiers used except the bigger ones either used OC-15 or the M-24 Tank differential we have several of these now they are used on rigs that weigh up to 48,000 pounds There was a OC-21 for awhile does any body
know of any now? The OC-15 were used also not only on the 601 but also on some of the RN-110 carriers we have one of those now rated at about 28,000
pound with cargo. We are alwas looking for more M-24 Differentials or parts for them they are getting harder to find.

We have included a picture of a M-24 controlled Differential This one is new still in the Military crate

 

[hammer]

Gentlemen,

I am that person B_Skurka speaks of. I have a cabin that is accessed by over the snow vehicles for about 6 months out of the year. My needs are primarily to move people (2-6 at a time), their luggage, and groceries. I think I am reflective of future customers in the market for a lightweight transport vehicle biased heavily towards people/light cargo moving as opposed to more industrial uses.

In this part of the country there is an increasing demand for recreational properties as new multi-millionaires (described locally as Microsoft Money) are buying up properties that have year round road access....this creates pressure to develop previously non-year round access properties such as mine....thus an increased demand for a "car like operating" vehicle to access these cabins.

I believe the future of this area of the county (and perhaps other similar markets) will be on such vehicles. I can forsee a growing market similar to the automotive sport utility vehicle where several models with different equipment packages will be desireable. It also appears that there are many established manufacturers of more industrial type applications and growth there will be minimal. So successfully creating a competing piece of industrial equipment seems like an uphill struggle at best.

I don't see any Snow Trac type vehicles currently on the market and think that is the direction of market growth. My 3 cents!

Hammer

 

[yellowpine O.T.S.]

A six way blade is a must. Safe and comfortable snow travel is not possible in our neck of the woods without a blade or previuosly bladed road. and up too eight people seems to be the magic number.