Its hard to say no

[BigAl]

Well I guess i'll be putting on the nail apron again for a couple weeks . A good friend needs a new Concrete foundation under their 104 year old home . Its about 65 miles from here and I decided to just camp out on site and do the job .

She is not poor and got a number of bids to do the work ,but they all came in extremely high . I think the biggest reason is because it is specialized worked and if you do not know what you are doing it can become a total disaster very quickly . One contractor even told her to tear down the old beautiful Victorian and start over .

My problem is its hard to say no when I see someone that is about to get overcharged on a project . I would not want to pay high prices for someone to learn how to do something at my expense .

Even with labor charge it will cost less than half for me to ram rod the job over the other bids she has recieved .And yes ,,,, I am still a licensed/insured contractor .

I know times are tuff in this economy , but I get calls on a daily basis and end up turning down a ton of work because I don't have time for it all .

Seems to me a fella needing work could tighten his belt, lower his wages , and make it through these tuff times instead of remaining at a higher wage and no work .JMO

 

[bczoom]

You're a good man Alan.

 

[muleman]

Be careful when jacking and blocking Al. We don't want to hear about you in the news! Hopefully it is tall enough you don't need to be bent over the whole job.

 

[Erik]

Around here on the rural lots, they'll dig and pour a new basement next to the house, then move the house the 50 feet sideways on those old Victorians if they're still solid enough to do it that way. Saves a little time and a lot of inconvenience for the owner.
good luck with the project!

 

[AAUTOFAB1]

All i can think is(post some pics),that job sounds like an amazing feet of sheer willpower and hydraulics,you have a good heart and tons of experience,I'm sure it will turn out great. if i lived closer i would volinteer some time to help out just to know how its done

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

i'm glad you are nice enough to help out Al i bet you would however charge me double because i own a snot trac

 

[fogtender]

Kudo's to you Al! World needs more guys like you in it!

Seems your heart is still in good working order!

 

[JEV]

Seems to me a fella needing work could tighten his belt, lower his wages , and make it through these tuff times instead of remaining at a higher wage and no work .JMO

Did your friend have a bid document or RFQ put together by a professional architect or engineer, or did she just call a bunch of contractors and say she needed a new foundation? Did she ask an architect or engineer for a list of contractors who specialize in this type of work so she could truly competitive pricing and quality work, or just get names of general or masonry contractors out of the yellow pages? Too many unanswered questions to determine if you are truly a nice guy or just an opportunist with an inside track on everyone else's bids. Maybe times are not as tough as you seem to think they are. Maybe the other contractors aren't willing to destroy their rate structure to compete against a retired contractor who decides to come out of retirement for selective projects. JMO

 

[BigAl]

Did your friend have a bid document or RFQ put together by a professional architect or engineer, or did she just call a bunch of contractors and say she needed a new foundation? Did she ask an architect or engineer for a list of contractors who specialize in this type of work so she could truly competitive pricing and quality work, or just get names of general or masonry contractors out of the yellow pages? Too many unanswered questions to determine if you are truly a nice guy or just an opportunist with an inside track on everyone else's bids. Maybe times are not as tough as you seem to think they are. Maybe the other contractors aren't willing to destroy their rate structure to compete against a retired contractor who decides to come out of retirement for selective projects. JMO

Geez Jev , Did you burn your muffins again ????? Good God , your in a sour mood .

WE live in Idaho Jev . The nearest Architect is 125 miles away . Your damn lucky to even find a licensed contractor up here who actually has some experience . You really need to get informed about Idaho .

Now then , I know you got your pantys in a twist over me screwing some friend or taking work away from you . I got news for you fella . I don't do it for the money .

Its a two week job for 3 guys, max . The material cost is $4000 bucks . < Thats a fact .Her other low bid was $25000 . Do the math Jev . I little high on labor cost , don't you think ????

Now its not a bad thing that I also hold a Engineering lic too . Kinda cuts out a lot of crap on engineering cost .Are you a license Engineer Jev ?

Maybe you like to blast people and charge up the kazoo but that is not my style .

This lady is a single mom and a dear friend of our family . She is busting her ass trying to make herself a better life . Now why don't you tell me again why I should not be helping her .

I'll tell you what Jev ... Go do what you do best . Go bake some friggin cookies and get rid of the chips on your shoulder .

I'll just keep doing what I do best . Helping a few folks who could use a break .


Now if your that hard up for a job , I might be willing to try you on a temp basis for $7.50 per hour but I am willing to bet that your mouth gets you fire on the first day . But Hey ....You gotta start somewhere to start learnin

 

[Lia]

Well I guess i'll be putting on the nail apron again for a couple weeks . A good friend needs a new Concrete foundation under their 104 year old home . Its about 65 miles from here and I decided to just camp out on site and do the job.

There's a solid 24 carat thread running right thro you...

One contractor even told her to tear down the old beautiful Victorian and start over.

My initial reaction was 'Unbelieveable!' But then I cast my mind back to the last couple of years and remembered some Cowboys who had done some work for me, and realized that its highly believeable. Its frightening tho, isn't it? When one hears of idiots like this in the trade.

Seems to me a fella needing work could tighten his belt, lower his wages , and make it through these tuff times instead of remaining at a higher wage and no work .JMO

Having a respectable reputation is far more important, imo, than monetary values.

 

[bczoom]

Poobah,

How about getting a few of your friends and set the house aside so you can work on the foundation.

Something like this.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o83W0gj_CRE"]‪Bruno Barn Move‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[fogtender]

Bigal,

Hope you can take a few photos to post, would be nice to see how it looks before and after!

 

[fogtender]

Poobah,

How about getting a few of your friends and set the house aside so you can work on the foundation.

Something like this.
‪Bruno Barn Move‬‏ - YouTube

That looks like they were having more fun than work!

 

[JEV]

Geez Jev , Did you burn your muffins again ????? Good God , your in a sour mood .

WE live in Idaho Jev . The nearest Architect is 125 miles away . Your damn lucky to even find a licensed contractor up here who actually has some experience . You really need to get informed about Idaho .

Now then , I know you got your pantys in a twist over me screwing some friend or taking work away from you . I got news for you fella . I don't do it for the money .

Its a two week job for 3 guys, max . The material cost is $4000 bucks . < Thats a fact .Her other low bid was $25000 . Do the math Jev . I little high on labor cost , don't you think ????

Now its not a bad thing that I also hold a Engineering lic too . Kinda cuts out a lot of crap on engineering cost .Are you a license Engineer Jev ?

Maybe you like to blast people and charge up the kazoo but that is not my style .

This lady is a single mom and a dear friend of our family . She is busting her ass trying to make herself a better life . Now why don't you tell me again why I should not be helping her .

I'll tell you what Jev ... Go do what you do best . Go bake some friggin cookies and get rid of the chips on your shoulder .

I'll just keep doing what I do best . Helping a few folks who could use a break .


Now if your that hard up for a job , I might be willing to try you on a temp basis for $7.50 per hour but I am willing to bet that your mouth gets you fire on the first day . But Hey ....You gotta start somewhere to start learnin

First, I don't need to "know Idaho" to know how to bid work. You're defending your half-priced labor and not answering the questions I posed. How is a contractor supposed to bid a job without a proper bid document. As a licensed contractor you should know that when going into a competitive bid situation, the scope of work should be clearly defined by someone in the know, so as to keep the bidding fair. As you well know, there are multiple ways to approach a job, and while the outcome may still be same, individual approaches to the job will differ if the scope is not clearly defined. I have charged customers for developing a bid document for them so they can be assured of getting apples to apples comparisons. Sometimes I get the work, sometimes I don't, but I know going in that each contractor is bidding from the same bid document. If a contractor has an alternate way of approaching the job, then he can provide an addendum with his bid, and it will be considered by the client and offered to the other bidders if accepted as additional work. Did you offer your engineering expertise to your friend so she had this type of document available to her?

With two guys making $15/hr and the lead man making $50/hr (cheap Idaho labor), and adding 20% burden, that's $10,750 +/- for manpower. Add the $4K for material (hoping nothing pops up under "hidden conditions") and we can call it $15K right about there. How much will excavation equip cost? Even if the contractor owns the machines, there is still machine time to be added for wear & tear at about $250 per day, which brings us to $18,500. Then there is that nasty little thing called PROFIT that keeps legitimate businesses viable. At 15% on the gross, we're at $21,275. Since nobody had provided clearly defined bid documents, the contractor needs to put in a fudge factor so he doesn't get burned. $25K doesn't sound bad for a guy with low/no overhead, but if you're a substantial business, you'll have additional in-house overhead to factor in as well. which takes the total higher.

You essentially called legitimate bidders crooks because they need to cover their costs and make a profit when it clearly appears that is not the case. It's well and good to help out a friend, but you stated she's not hurting, so calling legitimate bid excessive is not fair. You may not be working for the money, but don't give a black eye to those of us who are working for the money. If you want to come out of retirement and compete for work that is one thing. But if you're helping someone out because you want to be a nice guy, don't slam the contractors and their bids.

Maybe you like to blast people and charge up the kazoo but that is not my style .

Please put a $$ on "up the kazoo." I'd be interested to know what you think is fair and what is screwing the client.

I'd be glad to come out and show you how it's done, but you might find me a little rich for your blood.

 

[fogtender]

I think you missed Al's point, he is doing this from the heart and not his wallet.

I would bet he could sharpen the penicl for profit as good as anyone out there.

Some how, and I'm just guessing here, he doesn't need the money.

Sometimes having a big heart can get you sucked into a lot of stuff where you do the work cheap/free and sleep pretty well at night, at least I always do when I help people that need it.

First, I don't need to "know Idaho" to know how to bid work. You're defending your half-priced labor and not answering the questions I posed. How is a contractor supposed to bid a job without a proper bid document. As a licensed contractor you should know that when going into a competitive bid situation, the scope of work should be clearly defined by someone in the know, so as to keep the bidding fair. As you well know, there are multiple ways to approach a job, and while the outcome may still be same, individual approaches to the job will differ if the scope is not clearly defined. I have charged customers for developing a bid document for them so they can be assured of getting apples to apples comparisons. Sometimes I get the work, sometimes I don't, but I know going in that each contractor is bidding from the same bid document. If a contractor has an alternate way of approaching the job, then he can provide an addendum with his bid, and it will be considered by the client and offered to the other bidders if accepted as additional work. Did you offer your engineering expertise to your friend so she had this type of document available to her?

With two guys making $15/hr and the lead man making $50/hr (cheap Idaho labor), and adding 20% burden, that's $10,750 +/- for manpower. Add the $4K for material (hoping nothing pops up under "hidden conditions") and we can call it $15K right about there. How much will excavation equip cost? Even if the contractor owns the machines, there is still machine time to be added for wear & tear at about $250 per day, which brings us to $18,500. Then there is that nasty little thing called PROFIT that keeps legitimate businesses viable. At 15% on the gross, we're at $21,275. Since nobody had provided clearly defined bid documents, the contractor needs to put in a fudge factor so he doesn't get burned. $25K doesn't sound bad for a guy with low/no overhead, but if you're a substantial business, you'll have additional in-house overhead to factor in as well. which takes the total higher.

You essentially called legitimate bidders crooks because they need to cover their costs and make a profit when it clearly appears that is not the case. It's well and good to help out a friend, but you stated she's not hurting, so calling legitimate bid excessive is not fair. You may not be working for the money, but don't give a black eye to those of us who are working for the money. If you want to come out of retirement and compete for work that is one thing. But if you're helping someone out because you want to be a nice guy, don't slam the contractors and their bids.

Please put a $$ on "up the kazoo." I'd be interested to know what you think is fair and what is screwing the client.

I'd be glad to come out and show you how it's done, but you might find me a little rich for your blood.

 

[Trakternut]

I don't think anyone begrudges a contractor making some profit on a job. JEV has his ways of bidding jobs and it works for him.

HOWEVER, I can only think of ONE contractor around here who I would trust to do excavation work, lay sewer or waterline, etc. The others cut corners wherever they can get away with it, therein lies their profit.

How do YOU make your profit margin, JEV? Cut corners, or do a good job and get lots of repeat business?

 

[fogtender]

HOWEVER, I can only think of ONE contractor around here who I would trust to do excavation work, lay sewer or waterline, etc. The others cut corners wherever they can get away with it, therein lies their profit.

Well I don't know, if I ever got him up here I doubt I would ever stop hearing about a Krusty Kritter and how it is able to leap small snow mogals in a few hours....

Then I would have to take him out on a real trip into the wilderness in something that will go out and come back....

Then I would have to clean up a mess where he S**t his pants because he got scared of the critters out there....

Nope, it would be just terrible....

 

[JEV]

I think you missed Al's point, he is doing this from the heart and not his wallet.

I'm well aware of his wanting to help out his friend. MY point was that he called legitimate bids "extremely high," when that was not the case. I frequently do pro-bono work through our church, because I believe we need to give as well as receive, but there is no reason to slam legitimate contractors who are working to make a living and a profit.

How do YOU make your profit margin, JEV? Cut corners, or do a good job and get lots of repeat business?

I flat rate bid my work with a % for profit built in to the price. After a lifetime in this business I know how long it take to do something, and I rarely get surprised. If there are hidden conditions that's grounds for asking for more money, but that rarely happens to me. Since over 90% of my work comes from the church community where we have belonged for over 35 years and where I have my advertising, I cannot (nor have I ever) cut corners to feather my own nest. That will get you black-balled in a heartbeat. I can walk into church on any weekend and greet many of my customers without having to worry about running into someone that was cheated. If someone calls me and says they are taking bids on work, I tell them up front that I am not the lowest priced contractor, and if price is all they are looking for, I'm not interested in spending the time to bid a job I will not get. I get these requests mainly from landlords/slumlords who want to make a killing off of their rentals. I only have two clients with rentals, and they are executive rentals and I do all of their work. The work I don't do anymore (concrete, masonry and roofing) I will coordinate for the client for a fee. They demand #1 work and know I will produce for them or supply top notch subs with my same work ethic.

I should reiterate here that I am semi-retired and only work 500-600 hours per year, and I have other sources of income. I do this work because I love working with my hands, but I feel I should be compensated for my knowledge and experience as any other professional. I have an average of 120 unique clients each year, and that's very manageable for me. Some have been with me for over 20 years, and I'm working for many of their children now.

 

[BigAl]

I'm well aware of his wanting to help out his friend. MY point was that he called legitimate bids "extremely high," when that was not the case. I frequently do pro-bono work through our church, because I believe we need to give as well as receive, but there is no reason to slam legitimate contractors who are working to make a living and a profit.

I flat rate bid my work with a % for profit built in to the price. After a lifetime in this business I know how long it take to do something, and I rarely get surprised. If there are hidden conditions that's grounds for asking for more money, but that rarely happens to me. Since over 90% of my work comes from the church community where we have belonged for over 35 years and where I have my advertising, I cannot (nor have I ever) cut corners to feather my own nest. That will get you black-balled in a heartbeat. I can walk into church on any weekend and greet many of my customers without having to worry about running into someone that was cheated. If someone calls me and says they are taking bids on work, I tell them up front that I am not the lowest priced contractor, and if price is all they are looking for, I'm not interested in spending the time to bid a job I will not get. I get these requests mainly from landlords/slumlords who want to make a killing off of their rentals. I only have two clients with rentals, and they are executive rentals and I do all of their work. The work I don't do anymore (concrete, masonry and roofing) I will coordinate for the client for a fee. They demand #1 work and know I will produce for them or supply top notch subs with my same work ethic.

I should reiterate here that I am semi-retired and only work 500-600 hours per year, and I have other sources of income. I do this work because I love working with my hands, but I feel I should be compensated for my knowledge and experience as any other professional. I have an average of 120 unique clients each year, and that's very manageable for me. Some have been with me for over 20 years, and I'm working for many of their children now.

Interesting approach and I am happy for you .


Only Question I have is the Carpenters Union strong in your area ?? Are you a Union Contractor ?

I am sure you will continue to do well and prosper in life .

I honestly have no idea weather the bidding Contractors were /are legitimate or not . I said their bids seemed high for the work being done .

Jev you really need to stop assuming what I may be thinking and start reading what I am actually saying

You know what they say about assuming .


As I said before . I do not do it for the money . Like you, I enjoy working with my hands but my main love is helping others who could use a break .

I am the guy that can make that happen .

You and I are just cut from different cloth .

Keep up the good work & God Bless !


PS : (For those who really care )

Week one went very well and we are way ahead of schedule . Should wrap this up by the middle of the next week . I'll try to snap some pictures of a fat Contractor with his legs sticking out from under the crawl space . I was stuck at the time . I now have aches and pains in places I did not know that could be sore ???

 

[fogtender]

PS : (For those who really care )

Week one went very well and we are way ahead of schedule . Should wrap this up by the middle of the next week . I'll try to snap some pictures of a fat Contractor with his legs sticking out from under the crawl space . I was stuck at the time . I now have aches and pains in places I did not know that could be sore ???

What a bunch of assholes! Your stuck and they take pictures instead of helping?

Where's the photos?

 

[BigAl]

What a bunch of assholes! Your stuck and they take pictures instead of helping?

Where's the photos?

Yea it got a little confining for a while . I am not what most would call a small man . We started lifting the house yesterday afternoon and being under the floor was a little scary as things started popping . WE should have the back half of the place all stabilized by 10 AM on Monday . Hoping to have it all in the air by Monday at 4:30 quitting time . I am going to increase the the PSI strength of the Concrete so we can set it back in place ASAP . Owner will be moving back in a week , so I would like to have it pretty much done by then .

 

[fogtender]

Sounds like a lot of work and fun at the same time! The area is lucky to have someone of your talents there!

 

[Trakternut]

Sounds like a lot of work and fun at the same time! The area is lucky to have someone of your talents there!

... even if you do the work on the cheap!

 

[JEV]

Interesting approach and I am happy for you .


Only Question I have is the Carpenters Union strong in your area ?? Are you a Union Contractor ? No union is strong in this market any longer, since there is not much work. The only union workers doing well are rebuilding freeways with Obamadollars. I apprenticed as a framing and finish carpenter in the late 70's, but do not carry a union card for any union, nor do I believe you need a union card to be good at what you do.

I am sure you will continue to do well and prosper in life .

I honestly have no idea weather the bidding Contractors were /are legitimate or not . I said their bids seemed high for the work being done You said they were "extremely high," and now you sayt they "seemed high." It's one or the other, but cannot be both.

Jev you really need to stop assuming what I may be thinking and start reading what I am actually saying

You know what they say about assuming .


As I said before . I do not do it for the money . Like you, I enjoy working with my hands but my main love is helping others who could use a break .

I am the guy that can make that happen .

You and I are just cut from different cloth . No, we are cut from the same cloth because we both care. I'm just standing up for the guys who are not ready to hang up the tools just yet, and trying to protect their reputation. Only a damn fool or an idiot would intentionally overprice a job, but in a competitive bid situation each contractor will have a different burden/profit/overhead to add to the actual cost.

Keep up the good work & God Bless !


PS : (For those who really care )

Week one went very well and we are way ahead of schedule . Should wrap this up by the middle of the next week . I'll try to snap some pictures of a fat Contractor with his legs sticking out from under the crawl space . I was stuck at the time . I now have aches and pains in places I did not know that could be sore ???

Good luck on the balance of the job, and be safe.

 

[BigAl]

I honestly have no idea weather the bidding Contractors were /are legitimate or not . I said their bids seemed high for the work being done You said they were "extremely high," and now you sayt they "seemed high." It's one or the other, but cannot be both.

Good luck on the balance of the job, and be safe.

You are correct Jev . I stand by my first statement .
The bids were extremely high.
Thank you for pointing out my error in using proper grammar .

 

[BigAl]

OH Lord !
Now I remember why I hate doing foundations under old homes !!!! The old body is a little sore .

Just poured concrete on the last section today at 2 PM . That finishes up all the structual concrete work that needs to be done .

Snapped a few beams while lifting that got everyones attention very quickly when we were doing the temporary shoring work under the old place .

I have so many scrapes and cuts on me that I look like I been in a cat fight . Right hand is missing all the skin on three knuckles and my corner of my lip is busted open .

I took some pictures and will try to go get the camera and post them later tonight after a few drinks .

The project came in under budget by about $2500 and time by about 3 days more than I had predicted . Owner is very happy .

The guys did a great job and I would gladly work anywhere with them .

 

[AAUTOFAB1]

waiting....................

 

[fogtender]

Sounds like you were just having too much fun!

 

[BigAl]

As promised ! Only about a day late in getting them posted . Blame the Dr.Rums
The old house is 104 years old and and was built in 3 additions .I dug down 14-18 inches and 6' wide using a tractor/backhoe ,around the perimeter of the house to gain access. We then started by digging under the home and removing any dirt down about 12" on average .We used a sheet metal sled to drag the dirt out from under the house with ropes .

We then installed temporary concrete piers and beams and started raising the house with 20 ton jacks to sit on blocks while the new piers and foundation were installed after the remaining dirt was removed .

The new foundation is a 8" thick stem wall on a 8" x 18" footing reinforced with 3 -#4 steel rebar continous .

The house will stay on the temporary supports until the new foundation cures and and then set back in place with new 1 x6 V joint skirting on the perimeter .

 

[fogtender]

Looks very good! I bet you the gal is pretty happy about now!

Your really storing up the ol' brownie points!