• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

If Wind & Solar are so cheap, why do electric rates go up as we move to Wind/Solar?!?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I've been a very long time skeptic of wind and solar. I live in Indiana, my state does not give big tax credits or incentives for putting up solar panels, so the marketplace of real economics is the rule here. But I live within moments of the Illinois state line, and when I cross, I see lots of upper-middle class homes with solar panels on the roofs because if you can afford some up front costs, the state of Illinois will subsidize your panels. Rarely do I see the expensive photovoltaic panels on more modest homes.

But I have looked seriously, several times over the past decade, at putting some panels on my roof, putting up a tower with a wind generator, or doing both. Never have I figured out an economical way to do it with a reasonable payback, given the lack of government incentives in my state. Payback seems to typically be a long time coming, without subsidies, a decade or two, depending upon install costs.

Is solar cheaper? Is wind cheaper? Is it all built on lies?



Wind and solar are said to be cheaper, but utilities keep asking for higher rates from consumers

"Green" energy proponents and the media have claimed that solar and wind generation are "now cheaper than gas, oil or coal, and renewables now account for 15% of power generation, a three-fold increase over 7 years. Yet, utilities have this month filed rate increase requests across the country.

It’s often reported that wind and solar are the cheapest energy sources available. In the U.S, between 2015 and 2022, wind and solar increased from 5.6% of the electricity produced to nearly 15%. If wind and solar are so cheap, this three-fold increase should have produced a wave of reports of falling electricity rates across the country. Instead, we’ve seen the exact opposite.
Rising rates
In the past thirty days, the media reported on rate increase requests in Illinois, California, Wyoming, Maryland, Florida, Oregon, North Carolina, Georgia, Nevada, Louisiana, Alaska, West Virginia, and many other states. In some of the cases, public utility commissions denied the requests.
Despite widespread reports of rate increases, the media continue to claim that wind and solar are the cheapest energy to be had. “The cost of generating electricity from the sun and wind is falling fast and in many areas is now cheaper than gas, oil or coal,” the New York Times reported last year. “Clean energy is often now the least expensive,” the Associated Press reported last month.
In its 2023 World Energy Outlook, the International Energy Agency (IEA) proclaimed that solar additions were increasing rapidly because “they are now the cheapest new sources of electricity in most markets.”
Many of these claims, including the IEA outlook, are based on a metric called Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE). The metric, which was developed by the financial services firm Lazard, calculates the expected lifetime electricity generation of a power plant and compares that to the cost of building and maintaining the facility.
The problem with this equation, experts say, is that it assumes people will consume electricity as it's available. With natural gas, coal, hydroelectric, and nuclear energy, it’s available most of the time. With wind and solar, it’s only available under the right, unpredictable weather conditions. Lee Cordner, a power-grid consultant with 50 years experience, told Just The News that LCOE doesn’t calculate what it costs to support the intermittent nature of renewables. “I’m fond of saying that wind is cheaper 30% of the time. The other 70% gets really expensive,” Cordner said.
Renewable data center
Google is planning to run its entire operations 100% on renewable energy by 2030.
Using simple math, Cordner illustrated a cost comparison for a single, 100-megawatt data center running on natural gas-fired power, and the same facility entirely on solar and batteries. This hypothetical data center has an average energy consumption size of 100 megawatts. It runs 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, which means just under 900,000 megawatt hours per year.
A 100 megawatt gas turbine, Cordner explained, costs $125 million and uses about $10 million in fuel per year. The plant runs 96% of the time. The average solar farm costs $1 million per megawatt, and a battery facility costs between $300,000 and $600,000 per megawatt hour.
On sunny summer days, a 100 megawatt hours solar farm will produce power for six to seven hours, Cordner said, or about 600 megawatt hours. To keep the data center running during the dawn, dusk and night would require 1,800 megawatt hours of battery storage. Batteries, Cordner explained, have to be cooled. These cooling systems can eat up 70% of the power that’s put into them. For this hypothetical scenario, Cordner assumed 30% of the power going into the battery facility is used to cool it. “So you put in 100 megawatt hours, you run the cooling system, and you can only get 70 megawatt hours coming back,” Cordner said.
In order to meet the 1,800 megawatts of storage needed, the battery facility will therefore need 2,400 megawatts to account for energy lost in running the facility. Thus, for this 400 megawatt solar farm, the data center would need to invest $400 million dollars in the solar farm. For the battery facility costs, Cordner went with $500,000 per megawatt hour, which will cost $1.2 billion dollars.
But the expenses don’t end there. The solar output falls by half on cloudy winter days. To be sure this data center will have enough power during the day and plenty at night during shorter winter days, the solar farm needs to be doubled in size. Now, it’s an $800 million investment.
That brings the grand total to $2 billion.
Wait, there’s more
This system will not guarantee the data center won’t experience blackouts. On a snowy day, the solar panel output falls to zero. So, they would need to keep a gas plant maintained and ready to fire up in such conditions, which means more costs. Google wouldn’t meet its 2030 goal of 100% renewable energy with a system backed up by natural gas.
Cordner also points out that during the summer, this solar facility would produce more power than it can store, which means a lot of electricity with nowhere to go. That's a problem that’s arisen in California, where wind and solar curtailments, as they’re called, are happening more frequently when the overbuilt renewable energy sector is producing more power than the grid can use.
When the data center’s solar farm is curtailed on long sunny summer days, those panels would just sit there exposed to the elements and soaking up rays and producing nothing that can be used. “It’s a tremendously inefficient use of resources,” Cordner said.
The bill
At current natural gas prices, he said, the gas-fired power plant would cost about $0.05 per kilowatt hour.
A battery-solar system is currently estimated to last 20 years, but Cordner said that they’re wearing out more quickly than the estimates projected. Based on a 20-year amortization, which is the time LCOE uses, at 6% interest, the price per kilowatt hour is $0.17.
Cordner said a 10-year amortization is probably more correct, which would be $0.34 per kilowatt hour.
The average U.S. electricity rate for all sectors in October 2023 was 12.68 cents per kilowatt hour.
This estimation doesn’t factor in the cost of keeping the natural gas plant on standby for those snowy days.
There is also a difference in land use between the fossil fueled and solar-battery system. The 100-megawatt natural gas plant, according to a study by Strata, would require 12.41 acres. The solar farm would require 4,000 acres, or 6.25 square miles. The battery facility would take up about 60 more acres.
This is the cost and size of a 100% renewable energy system to one data center requiring 900 gigawatt hours per year. By comparison, in 2022, the U.S. consumed 4.07 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity, which is over 4,500 times larger than this hypothetical data center.
A transition to 100% renewable energy for this center requires an investment of over $2 billion dollars every 10 to 20 years.
The Biden administration plans to reach net zero by 2050, which includes 100% “clean” electricity by 2035.
 

mbsieg

awful member
GOLD Site Supporter
"The Biden administration plans to reach net zero by 2050, which includes 100% “clean” electricity by 2035."

I'm pretty sure in 2025 it really doesn't matter what the Biden administration wants.... Or at least I hope it doesn't matter.

But I will add this tidbit of experience. It's easy to produce and store power for a single residence. Try to do it for something like the article talks about, That's when things get a little messy.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
"The Biden administration plans to reach net zero by 2050, which includes 100% “clean” electricity by 2035."

I'm pretty sure in 2025 it really doesn't matter what the Biden administration wants.... Or at least I hope it doesn't matter.

But I will add this tidbit of experience. It's easy to produce and store power for a single residence. Try to do it for something like the article talks about, That's when things get a little messy.
Messy?
Most especially when government is involved. I take solace in a secure knowledge, it is all for our own good. :yum: :UtOh2:
 

chowderman

Well-known member
why?
ponder . . . in our area the electric company finally decided to install smart meters they could read remotely.
like, dude - the water company and the gas companies doing this for decades . . . and needed no surcharges . . .
so, in order to pay for the new meters, everybody gets a $1/month surcharge.
there are no more meter readers - that job is gone.
for some really odd ball reason, a 'smart meter' is forevermore more costly than that dozens of employees plus trucks plus gas . . .

utilities argue rate increases in very strange ways.
but to your point . . .

solar is not operating at the efficiencies advertised, i.e. they are not producing the trig-a-giga-watts of power promised
windmills are failing at an unsustainable rate - i.e. now only partially implemented, new ones cannot be installed nor old ones repaired fast enough to cover the broken ones. drive by any wind farm and count the windmills not operating . . . and that is not because the electrical power is not needed, it's because they are broken.

we've been fed a huge diet of lies.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I will say one thing, I do believe that we need DIVERSE and OVERLAPPING sources of energy.

While I am often critical of government subsidized wind farms, I have no problem with wind turbines as one of the sources if they are self sufficient. Ditto nuclear. Ditto hydroelectric. Etc. Our major source in this region is Natural Gas.

Seems reliable and scalable. Also seems like a problem in some regions. Sad to report, during these very very cold days, some people may not have heat due to a natural gas failure.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
I would take wind farms over solar farms. At the very least one can still plant crops under the spinning blades.

There are, however, fewer dead birds under the solar arrays.

It's a life choice.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I would take wind farms over solar farms. At the very least one can still plant crops under the spinning blades.

There are, however, fewer dead birds under the solar arrays.

It's a life choice.
Agreed.

I drive though a very large wind production scale wind farm (at one time it was 2nd largest in the midwest) a couple times each week. Literally horizon line to horizon line in all 4 directions you can see the giant turbines. I assume they are getting federal subsidies? Probably some from the state, but my state is generally pretty stingy so I'm guessing most of the subsidies and tax breaks are federal.

I'm not a fan of solar PV panel farms. I suppose on bad land they might be of good use, but across the midwest, most of the land is actually productive so wind might make more sense.

Neither, to my mind, or based on math, seem as good an option as nuclear or Natural Gas
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
No matter what, we still need base load electric via nuclear or "fossil".
There is no wind when it's 100f out and the midwest is under a high pressure dome
As for solar, I don't remember when the last sunny day was, maybe Christmas week. So solar generation is reduced since then.
And I think the windmills had to be locked out with the 40mph wings of late.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I totally get the skepticism around solar and wind, especially without substantial incentives. It's interesting how neighboring states like Illinois provide more support, making it more accessible for some.
So you are saying that to make it economical it must be subsidized?

So the government taxes everyone and a few people put panels on their rooftops. I usually see the solar panels in nicer areas or over homes in modest areas. So the poor end up paying a tax so the better off get tax breaks and end up paying lower prices
 

tommu56

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
To be honest if I could get electric to my camp I'd do it.
My payback less labor and replacing batteries 2 times would have been 12-13 years of electric at $95 a month for electric to cover my solar investment
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter

If Wind & Solar are so cheap, why do electric rates go up as we move to Wind/Solar?!?​



Eleven posts into the discussion, we still do not have an answer to this question.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter

If Wind & Solar are so cheap, why do electric rates go up as we move to Wind/Solar?!?​



Eleven posts into the discussion, we still do not have an answer to this question.
Yes we do.

They are not ‘cheap’ sources.

Take away the taxpayer funded subsidies and they cost more to install and operate while simultaneously are unreliable/unstable sources of energy that don’t work well at night (less wind & no sun) or under many other conditions.

So in real terms they REQUIRE being paired with a stable base energy source like NG, coal or Nuclear plant that can ‘ramp up’ to fill in when wind/solar are not at optimum output compared to usage demands
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
Yes we do.

They are not ‘cheap’ sources.

Take away the taxpayer funded subsidies and they cost more to install and operate while simultaneously are unreliable/unstable sources of energy that don’t work well at night (less wind & no sun) or under many other conditions.

So in real terms they REQUIRE being paired with a stable base energy source like NG, coal or Nuclear plant that can ‘ramp up’ to fill in when wind/solar are not at optimum output compared to usage demands
I know all that. Everybody knows that.
However, it doesn't answer the question.

After adding all these units and complex of windmills and solar arrays allover the nation, in an attempt to collect "free power" why hasn't the price of power gone down?

The answer is that, quite frankly, WE WERRE DECEIVED by our government.

Colour me surprised.
 

tommu56

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
My brother-in-law ran a private project to put 60ish wind turbines in in north central pennsylvania,
The first 30ish went in fine over 2-3 years utility infrastructure was at capacity with the output from the 30.
Advance a year later to phase 2 next 30 turbines the utility wanted the private project to foot all the bill for infrastructure upgrade to the next 30.
The option wasn't even discussed to distribute the cost with anyone else.
So he sold the 30 wind generators at about 1.30 his cost because of the demand for them.
Who looses the land owners loose the royalties / rent for the lots they were farm fields and they do farm around them after install the permanent usage is about 1 acre cant be farmed the construction phase is about 5 acre's more of loss crops.
The local utility looses for the transportation charge to distribute the power to other utilities
 
Top