I thought I had seen every thing stuffed with an LS...

[300 H and H]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccRo6eAdJGk[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA_7gkLPi_o[/ame]

New channel and this is their first project. I think it would be easier for these guys to just go off the net, and to an old school book and READ about carburetors and other old school stuff....

Put an LS in were a perfectly good engine was...

Not sure how this will turn out. I guess we have to stay tuned...

Regards, Kirk

 

[Mill666er]

Their other channel is the waterjet channel where the cut any and everything with the shop waterjet. I think this shop must be next door and are in the Salt Lake City area. I left a comment for them to check out the snowcat forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[300 H and H]

Their other channel is the waterjet channel where the cut any and everything with the shop waterjet. I think this shop must be next door and are in the Salt Lake City area. I left a comment for them to check out the snowcat forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope they check us out...

They might find out the correct replacement motor for the carb and distributor challenged LS crowd, that a 5.7 liter Chrysler Hemi would have been the correct choice...…

I bet they have no idea how that carburetor or distributor even work...nor do they want to... Just throw it in the junk and put in an LS....

Regards, Kirk

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccRo6eAdJGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA_7gkLPi_o

New channel and this is their first project. I think it would be easier for these guys to just go off the net, and to an old school book and READ about carburetors and other old school stuff....

Put an LS in were a perfectly good engine was...

Not sure how this will turn out. I guess we have to stay tuned...

Regards, Kirk

Kirk,

I realize as a founding member of the Snow Trac Mafia your allegiances lie elsewhere. But have you driven a Tucker powered by a 318 or 360 Chrysler Industrial engine at higher elevations, and in deep snow?

I think you might very well revise your opinion of the power level of what you call "the perfectly good engine".

Forum member wbuffetjr1 (or WBJ1 as I call him) is presently using my 1986 Tucker 1544 in Colorado this Christmas with his family. That machine has the Chrysler 360 Industrial and Allison AT545 transmission. We've been exchanging a few texts, and I asked him how the machine was working out for them. His response, and this is a verbatim quote, was "I think the 360 is severely under powered up here. The 318 would have been miserable.”

Here’s a page from a Chrysler 318 Industrial brochure. Note the numbers: It says 187 Gross horsepower @ 4,000 RPM, and if you continue reading, that number was obtained without even a fan. If you look down to the graph area and look at Continuous Horsepower you’ll see about 98 HP @3,200 RPM. Now reduce that by 30% for operating at 10,000’ elevation and you’re down to a downright measly 70 HP.



The Snowzilla thread in the Restoration and Modification section details (among other things) how my snowcat buddy Scott and I are installing a GM L94 engine and Allison AT545 transmission in a 1980 Tucker 1643 for WBJ1. That's a fourth generation, all aluminum 6.2L LS engine rated at 403 HP and 417 ft lbs of torque. It replaces the stock 318/5-speed manual transmission setup.

I watched the two YouTube videos and was decidedly underwhelmed; with what they were planning, and their execution thus far. My impression is they jumped in with both feet prior to doing any research at all. In my experience that frequently results in disappointment, and/or lots of wasted time and money when you have to do many things over again. Mark Twain had some truly great quotes. One I try and live by is “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”.

The so-called “one BBL carburetor” is a Carter BBD two barrel that Chrysler used for decades (multiple). I am routinely amazed at YouTube videos that illustrate the wisdom of Twain’s quote...

 

[vintagebike]

1949 Tucker 423 Sophie is getting a Chevy 4.3 V6, a TH350 automatic and Holley Sniper EFI. So far fully reversible and keeping all the original parts.

 

[300 H and H]

Kirk,

I watched the two YouTube videos and was decidedly underwhelmed; with what they were planning, and their execution thus far. My impression is they jumped in with both feet prior to doing any research at all. In my experience that frequently results in disappointment, and/or lots of wasted time and money when you have to do many things over again. Mark Twain had some truly great quotes. One I try and live by is “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”.

Blackfoot I see your point about altitude and HP and your again correct.

But I also know that with some fore thought, you could take that 318/360 and with a different cam, heads, intake, headers, and a current production aftermarket electronic fuel injection conversion end up with some thing pretty darn good to.... more original as well...

This is what I am talking about, my quote of yours, the lack of planning, just jump in and it has to be good, after all it is getting an "LS"....
I hope I the end they don't just ruin a perfectly good Tucker...

Regards, Kirk

 

[Pontoon Princess]

Blackfoot I see your point about altitude and HP and your again correct.

But I also know that with some fore thought, you could take that 318/360 and with a different cam, heads, intake, headers, and a current production aftermarket electronic fuel injection conversion end up with some thing pretty darn good to.... more original as well...

This is what I am talking about, my quote of yours, the lack of planning, just jump in and it has to be good, after all it is getting an "LS"....
I hope I the end they don't just ruin a perfectly good Tucker...

Regards, Kirk

and how much horse power do you need to go 5 to 7 mph?

merry christmas to all

 

[PJL]

Probably more than 70.

 

[300 H and H]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrFGTySTxlI[/ame]

More power than a gen 4 LS, yet old school cool. Just add an aftermarket electronic fuel injection system and I no longer see any benefit from an LS swap into a Tucker.. other than it might be some what lighter than a 360.

The all aluminum LS will die a quick death if it is ever over heated... And those 400 plus horses don't get to the party till over 6K revs... way high, gutless below 3K rpm...

Let me put an old school 440 in there and the LS will run and hide!

Regards, Kirk

 

[HankScorpio]

I own a 1984 Tucker with the 318. I run it at 10,000ft+. It is underpowered for sure. I have the super low axle gears which make it very drivable but only to about 10mph, 5th gear, 3000 rpm, flat or downhill. If I had more power then I could raise the axle ratio and gain a bit more speed but with the lack of power the current gearing is the only option.
I agree with the LS swap in theory, plenty of power, wide rpm range and good economy. I think the 4L60 trans was a mistake but I am interested to see how it turns out. The LS platform is one of the greatest V8's of all time, the head design is outstanding. The heads are where all the power comes from, just leaps ahead of any of the older carbed v8's in stock form. Sure you can make power with any engine if you make mods and nobody is ever going to agree on the "perfect" engine combo.
I think the LS gets some hate from 2 groups, the "I am so sick of hearing LS swap" group and the "Carbs are better because I never learned to deal with fuel injection" group. When the time is right I will have the LS at the top of my list for a possible repower of my Sno-Cat. I believe in restomod, not restoration. Technology improves over time and we should all be open to improvement. My Tucker is 35 years old now, things have changed a ton in that time.
I am watching this repower closely and I wish the Westshop crew nothing but good luck with the project. That's a sweet cat and it will have many years of powder cruising in its future.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

I agree with much of what Hank Scorpio says. That said, I am not optimistic about the results of LS swap featured in the YouTube videos… (I’ll leave it at that.)

"Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races”. I think it’s part of the American psyche to think in terms of horsepower. But in a Tucker Sno-Cat application you want torque. And, you want gobs of it: you want it at a low RPM, and you want a very flat torque curve.

The 360 pictured in the video isn’t “it” for a Tucker. I listened to what was said more than watched the video, but that engine produces its peak horsepower at 5,800 RPM. You won’t see that in a Tucker. Peak torque was at 4,600 RPM which you might see on a very rare occasion... briefly. The compression ratio is 10.5:1 which would mean premium fuel. The carburetor is a Holley 750 CFM “Double Pumper”, meaning two accelerator pumps. It also has mechanical secondaries which is great for a high performance street machine, but not so much for a Tucker Sno-Cat. Did you notice the choke plate was removed from the carburetor? Good luck getting it started in 0 degree temperatures. That engine also had a nice set of headers. Great for making the engine breathe better, but finding a set that would fit in a Tucker without clearance issues would be a challenge. But it does look pretty, and it sounds nasty…a good thing!

Interestingly, the Chrysler 440 Industrial was the base engine in the Tucker 1700 series for a time, so there are Tuckers with 440 engines out there! My impression is the 440 wasn’t offered in automotive applications for very long. It was available in pickup trucks for a while and was pretty commonly installed in motorhomes back in the 1970’s. But it’s a big block and it weighs a bunch. My perception is performance parts for that engine are harder to find, and more expensive when you do. Different bell housing bolt pattern than the LA series engines.

LS series engines offer a number of great features. They’re reliable, last a long time (when properly maintained), start easily in virtually all conditions, produce excellent power, decent economy, and they can be readily found at reasonable prices. There is also considerable aftermarket support in terms of parts and general information for LS swaps. Honestly from my perspective, what’s not to like? I will say, though that an off-the-cuff number for the parts necessary to make the conversion in a Tucker is about $4K; and that doesn’t include the engine or a nickel for labor. It also doesn’t include a transmission.

Kirk, I am pleased though that you’ve taken an interest in repowering a Tucker. As someone who is a “made man” in the Snow Track Mafia, I’m encouraged by your involvement in this topic. (I think it’s outstanding!)

WBJ1 brought the 1544 back from the mountains of Colorado yesterday. Scott and I intend to get back to work on Thundercat on January 2nd and hopefully soon I’ll have two operational Tuckers (for the first time…ever)! If/when that happens I’d like to take both machines out for head-to-head comparison testing: same day, same place, same conditions; which means no excuses. If that happens I’ll try to take good notes, and hopefully some videos.

Happy New Year!

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

a higher speed ring and pinion or overdrive transmission, a b series 230 hp cummins and now you will have some usable torque and yes it will start and run in the cold.

 

[Snowtrac Nome]

I might add like the ls there are take out 6 b cummins around every corner

 

[GlacierSean]

I am all about putting LS engines in anything. And I firmly believe that all vintage snowcats and sno cats are woefully under powered. And I have been the recipient of many "that engine is overkill and unnecessary " comments. Hopefully this project goes well for them. Definitely agree with Blackfoot Tucker about torque being the thing to focus on. If you have deep pockets the aluminum block 4bt would probably be a good option for a Tucker engine swap. We initially wanted to do a 4bt but it is too wide for my little br100.

 

[olympicorange]

…. seems like a shame to yank out the Allison , for a 4L60.... find the correct flywheel housing & flexplate to adapt LS to it …. could have saved some time & a rebuild, etc...

 

[Pontoon Princess]

I am all about putting LS engines in anything. And I firmly believe that all vintage snowcats and sno cats are woefully under powered. And I have been the recipient of many "that engine is overkill and unnecessary " comments. Hopefully this project goes well for them. Definitely agree with Blackfoot Tucker about torque being the thing to focus on. If you have deep pockets the aluminum block 4bt would probably be a good option for a Tucker engine swap. We initially wanted to do a 4bt but it is too wide for my little br100.

fun fun fun machine, just remember to put gas in it, and it goes great

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

…. seems like a shame to yank out the Allison , for a 4L60.... find the correct flywheel housing & flexplate to adapt LS to it …. could have saved some time & a rebuild, etc...

I quite literally could not agree with you more. That's one (of several) reasons why I said this: "I am not optimistic about the results of the LS swap featured in the YouTube videos…"

 

[300 H and H]

The 360 pictured in the video isn’t “it” for a Tucker. I listened to what was said more than watched the video, but that engine produces its peak horsepower at 5,800 RPM. You won’t see that in a Tucker. Peak torque was at 4,600 RPM which you might see on a very rare occasion... briefly. The compression ratio is 10.5:1 which would mean premium fuel. The carburetor is a Holley 750 CFM “Double Pumper”, meaning two accelerator pumps. It also has mechanical secondaries which is great for a high performance street machine, but not so much for a Tucker Sno-Cat. Did you notice the choke plate was removed from the carburetor? Good luck getting it started in 0 degree temperatures. That engine also had a nice set of headers. Great for making the engine breathe better, but finding a set that would fit in a Tucker without clearance issues would be a challenge. But it does look pretty, and it sounds nasty…a good thing!
LS series engines offer a number of great features. They’re reliable, last a long time (when properly maintained), start easily in virtually all conditions, produce excellent power, decent economy, and they can be readily found at reasonable prices. There is also considerable aftermarket support in terms of parts and general

I made it a point to include the best electronic ignition available, not a carb...

Aluminum heads in the build at 10 to 1 do not require premium gas either. Cast iron yes, Edelbrock Aluminum can go there quite nicely...

After market support is available for either one, so a moot point...

Your LS is peaky on the power it produces, and has less area under the HP curve along with torque than those Aluminum Edelbrock heads make...

Not a fan of anything GM, especially since Obama put his stamp on the place along with the Chinese... A current GM board member came to the GM board from the CIA... don't know or care what that is about, cause GM done sh1t the bed long ago...

LS swap all you care, as with the L98 small block from the late 80's that got stuffed into everything including the lawn mower has taught me there will always be some hot new fad thing out there to spend your money on.... The LS in ten years will be old and forgotten about as was the case with the L98 from just a few years ago. That stock motor will always be recognized as correct for the machine. Now your machine is a custom hybrid, and only you know what it is...Ten years down the road it will harm the value as the LS craze dies for some thing "new" and "better".. Keep the stock engine and you can mod it to do what every you care to if you try...

Regards, Kirk

 

[The Sweet Wbj1]

I am not as smart or educated as most of the folks on here. I just sell chicken wings for a living and you don't have to be a genius to do that.

When I was running the numbers on engine choices I just couldn't make keeping the stock engine work.

A half decent fuel injectiion kit was going to be ~$2k. Throw in new heads, electronic ignition or whatever else you need to approach <300-400lbft and the cost to modify the stock engine gets pretty steep. Not to mention the modified stock engine would still be doing great to get 8MPG. A decent 6.2 LS costs about $3,500, is considerably lighter, and IIRc gets ~16MPG stock. IMHO, that ~8MPG difference has to translate some amount to the snow. Add in proceeds from selling the stock engine, saving EFI $$ due to LS already having EFI, and the swap just made more and more sense to me.

I will say this. Now, with some 10,000' experience in deep snow in a Tucker with a stock 360 under my belt.... THANK GOD Blackfoot forced me to do the LS swap!! I would have had a major problem on my hands if we had kept the 318 in Snowzilla! On our first run to our cabin we could not get out of first gear for a very long stretch. Probably a couple miles maybe more. It got better after the road was packed down some. Never was able to get out of first gear for the last 1/2 mile or so.

Like I said, all this coming from a chicken wing guy. Take it with a dash of Lemon Pepper.

 

[DAVENET]

Sure hope there is going to be an extensive write up on your adventures & added observations . . .

 

[300 H and H]

I am not as smart or educated as most of the folks on here. I just sell chicken wings for a living and you don't have to be a genius to do that.

When I was running the numbers on engine choices I just couldn't make keeping the stock engine work.

A half decent fuel injectiion kit was going to be ~$2k. Throw in new heads, electronic ignition or whatever else you need to approach <300-400lbft and the cost to modify the stock engine gets pretty steep. Not to mention the modified stock engine would still be doing great to get 8MPG. A decent 6.2 LS costs about $3,500, is considerably lighter, and IIRc gets ~16MPG stock. IMHO, that ~8MPG difference has to translate some amount to the snow. Add in proceeds from selling the stock engine, saving EFI $$ due to LS already having EFI, and the swap just made more and more sense to me.

I will say this. Now, with some 10,000' experience in deep snow in a Tucker with a stock 360 under my belt.... THANK GOD Blackfoot forced me to do the LS swap!! I would have had a major problem on my hands if we had kept the 318 in Snowzilla! On our first run to our cabin we could not get out of first gear for a very long stretch. Probably a couple miles maybe more. It got better after the road was packed down some. Never was able to get out of first gear for the last 1/2 mile or so.

Like I said, all this coming from a chicken wing guy. Take it with a dash of Lemon Pepper.

Lol..

And I am just an old flatlander who see's far less snow than you guys out West ever do in your worst year.... Altitude? From 1-2000 ft., never any more..
So I am way out of my element to know what your experiences are.. Blackfoot has always impressed me with his fore thought and knowledge of snow cats, and his re-engineering as well. Top shelf all the way around... If I lived out your way he is probably the guy who would turn me orange lol...

I just still see those crate motored street rods and old cars, some of them desirable muscle cars that got L98 tuned port Corvette motors put in them in the late 80's and early 90's with exactly the same reasoning people use today for the LS conversions we are seeing. As time passes so does what people think is the "gold standard engine" of the current day... And as you can tell I am not a Gm fan at all these days for other reasons..

So I stand corrected, I lost this session of bench catting to the
"lets put in an LS" crowd lol....

The best snow cat is a running one that does what one wants it to do. How you get there is going to be were every one's mileage will vary LOL!

Some times I like a good argument. I lean from them, what others are thinking.

Regards, Kirk

 

[olympicorange]

………. I would like to place an order for ; salt & vinegar wings, blue cheese .... i'm enjoying the octane convo,... all boils down to the power to weight ratio advantage , gm power vs. the rest,... mpg ( somewhat, cause if you can afford a powerhouse toy, well... _) … gm has had an advantage for making hp , more economically , with more choices, than most brands... and so on,... hence why a gm/csb ,... has been ''crambed' ' into just about anything,... 1955 was a great year....

 

[vintagebike]

Looks like our GM 4.3 Balance shaft V6 with Holley EFI should make 225-265 reliable HP. In a 2000 lb. , 2 track front ski Tucker will it be enough?... or "couda had a V8".

 

[Pontoon Princess]

Looks like our GM 4.3 Balance shaft V6 with Holley EFI should make 225-265 reliable HP. In a 2000 lb. , 2 track front ski Tucker will it be enough?... or "couda had a V8".
View attachment 121383

thinking the power to weight you win

rolling resistance you win

clean installation you win

cool cat you win

think you are ready to take on the Kristi KT-3 gang, in the drag race, you win

no V-8 needed

 

[1boringguy]

Looks like our GM 4.3 Balance shaft V6 with Holley EFI should make 225-265 reliable HP. In a 2000 lb. , 2 track front ski Tucker will it be enough?... or "couda had a V8".
View attachment 121383

Just mount this to the back of the 323, replace the wheels with snowboards and your set. No V8 needed, running on koolaid.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

I feel a need to correct this factual misrepresentation:

THANK GOD Blackfoot forced me to do the LS swap!! I would have had a major problem on my hands if we had kept the 318 in Snowzilla! .

My recollection is during some conversations with WBJ1 I expressed the opinion that an automatic transmission was a major improvement over the 5-speed manual that came in Snowzilla. At first, the objective was to install an Allison AT545 behind the original 318. However, the problem was finding an adapter housing between the engine and transmission. I believe only Tucker used that combination, so finding them is difficult. (I had been hoping to pry one from redsqwrl's hands, but was unsuccessful.)

WBJ1 and I discussed several different engine possibilities to include modifying the stock 318, and modifying a 360, but both of those options required the non-existent adapter housing. The conversation then drifted to other engine possibilities, including different LS variants. Since WBJ1 already had an L94 sitting in his garage, that became the logical choice, even though the swap was considerably more work for Scott and me.

Rather than allegedly "forcing" WBJ1 into the swap, I think it would be more accurate to say Scott and I were/are "reluctant accomplices".

 

[olympicorange]

…… well, I guess i'm glad to hear that it's a common scenario...lol. so, question to all.... watching the video that started all this, I noticed the belting on the tracks/grousers. they went with a wider one belt on each side , rather than 4 belts. per track. has anybody tried this or used these before. if so, does it last longer from cracking /splitting, etc... seems like it would be stronfer, longer lasting..... thx

 

[HankScorpio]

I think I saw @aarontucker do the single wide belt on a cat he had a few years back. Can't remember the details right now.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

I think I saw @aarontucker do the single wide belt on a cat he had a few years back. Can't remember the details right now.

If it's the machine I'm thinking of, I think it's forum member Broken Grouser who owns it. Another forum member built the machine, a fifties Tucker converted from pontoons and steel tracks to carriers and rubber belts.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I spoke with Brad at Minnesota Outdoors about the single wider belt concept. IIRC, he said while it had perhaps very slightly better flotation, the downside was it had less side hilling ability, and on balance he didn't think it was a worthwhile trade-off.

Brad, if you're reading this and my recollection is wrong, please correct me!

 

[DAVENET]

^^ Still one of my favorite machines.