Building the perfect snow cat?

[Melensdad]

Can we just do a cheezy SnowTrac rip-off? I think it is the most "marketable" trac'ed vehicle I've seen.

PB I think you hit the whole point of the thread that it is the most "marketable" vehicle you've seen.

But let me ask you. Why is it more marketable than the others you've seen posted on the forums? And since you don't own one, I really am curious about your opinion (and the others who don't own them) because you are a POTENTIAL TARGET market.

And to people who currently own any brand of snow cat, what are the features you are looking for?

ALL, if possible, rank the features you want/need or feel are the most important.

EDIT: Below are photos of a Bombardier with "muskeg" tracks. These are similar to the tracks posted earlier in the thread by mtntopper. I would think that for anything east of the Rockies, this type of track would be a great all season, all terrain track. In the Rockies and west, perhaps a more traditional track might be better?
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[Lyndon]

So you want to build a Snow Cat? What the manuffacturers found was that Rear drive has the advantage over front drive. One is 'Pulling' the track direct, versus draging it over various return tires first. Most of the manufacturers of track vehicles converted ovr to rear drive pretty quickly. When the Bolinder family controlled the Westermaskiner works and were building snow tracks, they refused to let anyone copy their design. Later when the company was purchased by Bob Persons of Persons invest he too had various request to use some of the design features. After they quit producing the machine because they thought they were not going to be able to get VW engines and Transaxels anymore, that all changed. The last time I talked to Bob, the leagle holder of the patents, he said; "You want to build them? Go Ahead!" Too little and too late for the builder of ASV Track Truck and the Guy in West Yellowstone. You can always contact Bob, but I suspect he will give you the same answer. When Christer Morlind bought the parts line from Aktiv/Fischer( Bob Persons, Persons Invest
AB), that's all he bought. But He has all the original blue prints. I don't believe he would have anything to say about building more machines. Personally I'd favor the 75KW (90HP) VW turbo Diesel. It would fit in nicely, gets spectacular fuel mileage and has a fairly high RPM range for a Diiesel. A Brittish outfit that makes a military version of the ARGO, already uses the VW Diesel. This military rig is much heavier duty than the ARGO and incorperates BOTH skid steer and steering wheels, cimes in an Amphibious version. They are asking a pretty hefty price for it. I briefly had a ST 4 that had a Rabbit Gas, water cooled engine. It ran pretty good. Takes a little innovation to get heat and defrost going.

 

[Av8r3400]

There is a "vehicle" parked in a barn yard not far from where I used to live that is a homemade tracked vehicle. It looks to be a shortened pickup chassis complete with cab, that has a driving axle in the rear and a fixed (non-steerable) trailer-type axle in the middle and front.

I've never gotten a good enough look at the tracks to see their makeup, I think they are a modification of the "skid loader" type track ran off the driving tires (no sprockets). I have seen the rig pulling a snowmobile trail groomer, so it does work. It must have a standard type engine, tranny and an "open" differential with independent brakes to steer, from what I could tell.

I would think track slippage would be a problem. But, what do I know.

Mtntopper -- Yes, that's kind of what I was thinking, only with a light-weight fiberglass tub-body and maybe a tube chassis inside (a-la Kristi). Light axles off a Utility Vehicle or AWD car (Subaru) or ???

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

PB I think you hit the whole point of the thread that it is the most "marketable" vehicle you've seen.

But let me ask you. Why is it more marketable than the others you've seen posted on the forums? And since you don't own one, I really am curious about your opinion (and the others who don't own them) because you are a POTENTIAL TARGET market.

And to people who currently own any brand of snow cat, what are the features you are looking for?

ALL, if possible, rank the features you want/need or feel are the most important.?

I think it is the most marketable for the following reasons:

1. Car like operation. (Steering wheel)
2. Car like dimensions. Not too big.
3. Good interior space.
4. Cheap (relatively)
5. Looks good. They are really cool looking.
6. VW engine = consumer confidence/reliability/parts availability.

Bob, when you decide to start "City Sales Heavy Industries" let me know. I want to apply for the marketing position.

; )

PB

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

One other thought. How about two versions. You have the standard snow-trac people mover version.

The other version is the "Snow-tractor" version:

- One or Two person cab up front.
- Hydraulic dump bed in the back (Manure spreader as an option)
- Industrial Kubota Diesel engine
- Front and Rear PTO for attachments (i.e. snow blower on front, salt spreader on the back.)
- Front mount snow blade.

If you could engineer it to re-use components across the two product lines then it shouldn't be too much extra to hit multiple markets.

 

[Doc]

I've seen a couple mention diesel for this dream vehicle. But would a diesel be a good idea for a power plant? In the cold you might not have electric handy to warm the block, which might spell starting troubles ...etc.

 

[Melensdad]

Well I am actually not interested in starting up a manufacturing company, especially since I am currently involved in taking over a foodservice company and that is occupying my time.

But it does seem like a worthwhile excercise to determine what the attractive features are in these vehicles.

I look at guys like byoung, dmeisner and Snowcat Operations and they seem to want/need extreme snow flotation for powder conditions, but as back country skiers and transporters who are off trails virtually all the time, they also need to carry passengers, etc. Other folks like dbrokaw, villi, myself, gordon robertson, arlow, etc use these for family & cargo transport across snow. Some own them out of need, others for liesure, but there are some common threads to the needs of these things.

Cargo and people carrying seem to be pretty big issues with owners of Snow Tracs.

Not sure about the needs of the Kristi owners. Really we hear randomly from the Kristi people and little about their use. BigAl being the one exception to the Kristi owners.

The DMC/LMC/Thiokol people like byoung, mtntopper and pixie seem to have varied needs. byoung, as previously mentioned uses his Imp for back country deep powder skiing (he is selling it and purchased a different machine). Pixie for property work, trail work, logging, etc. Not sure about mtntopper, but I get the impression it is real transportation for him in the winter.

I think we can divide these roughly into 2 groups with sub-groups. The sub-groups would divide up each group below by their snow conditions, the upper rockies powder guys need the wide track machines. Others can easily get by with standard tracks.

As for the engine issue, I think any reliable engine can be used. HP is an issue related largely to the mechanism type. A Snow Trac needs less HP than most others because the steering eats up very little HP, a similar size machine of a different design may require 40% of the available HP to be dedicated to the steering. This is neither good nor bad, just a different type of machine. And as mtntopper suggested, there is no substitute for HP and generally more is probably better if it does not add too much weight.

Group 1: People-Gear transporters
For this group, interior space is critical be it for cargo or passengers

Group 2: Work vehilcles
This would be were Pixie fits into, possibly mtntopper. These would be used for things like hauling logs, rescuing stuck cars, etc.


JMO

 

[Av8r3400]

I've seen a couple mention diesel for this dream vehicle. But would a diesel be a good idea for a power plant? In the cold you might not have electric handy to warm the block, which might spell starting troubles ...etc.

As an owner of MANY diesels in a fairly cold climate, I can say with much enthusiasm this idea that diesels won't run in the cold is outdated. If the fuel is proper (anti gelling agent) and the battery is up to scratch (glow plugs and starter rpm) starting will not be an issue.

Fuel use and power band make a diesel much better for this type of "industrial" application.

 

[Tahoe Kristi]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Range Runner which is an updated version of the old Trackster. They come with a 31 and a 34 HP 4 cycle gas engine or a turbo diesel model. Unfortunately they only seat 2 and in the deep snow they are a dog. Still, I like the T handle control for the hydrostatic steering over reefing on my levers to turn the KT2. The Range Runner will spin on its tracks in a tight circle!

 

[mtntopper]

As an owner of MANY diesels in a fairly cold climate, I can say with much enthusiasm this idea that diesels won't run in the cold is outdated. If the fuel is proper (anti gelling agent) and the battery is up to scratch (glow plugs and starter rpm) starting will not be an issue.

Fuel use and power band make a diesel much better for this type of "industrial" application.

I have to park in a remote location and leave the snowcat where I do not have commercial power available at times. Our temperatures can go to below -35 degrees and stay way below zero for days at a time at our elevation in the mountains.
We run diesel engines in the construction equipment and trucks here on the mountain. We do have problems with cold starting after many days of this type temperatures. Blended fuel or #1 along with fuel additives help, but it seems problems do arise. Our winter fuel at one time this winter was jelling in the filter on the bulk fuel tank. Short term cold does not affect the starting and running near as much as when you have a solid week of -30 degrees. One of the problems we encounter is all of our fuel must be purchased before we become snowbound. The quality of diesel fuel for cold weather may not be the best when bought in October as refining quality seems to follow the seasons for diesel fuel.

For the reasons above I prefer the snow cat with a gas engine as I must depend on it start everyday even at -35 degrees.

I have even considered a secure caged generator on the gas engine snow cat deck to be used to preheat the gas engine in the remote locations. I would definitely have the generator on a diesel powered snow cat for remote locations without power.

Just my 2 cents worth again!!!

 

[mtntopper]

The closest "perfect snow cat" on the market today. Looks like a LMC 1500, but with many improvements.

The newest vehicle to the Pisten Bully family, the Scout. PistenBully USA has partnered with Kevin Smith of Litefoot snow vehicles to bring the best utility vehicle in the market to a much larger customer base.
[FONT=Bimini, Chasm]The Top Solution:
Sure footed. Mobile. Nimble. An off road specialist. Powered by a GMC Vortec 6 cylinder gas engine, this hydrostatic utility machine weighs in under 5400lbs. It's agile construction, combined with hydrostatic power meet for a top performing machine, by anyone's standard. The Scout is a necessary tool for any utility company, cabin owner, or winter enthusiast.



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[Tommo]

Nice looking machine, that Scout!

Has I've mentioned before, i would spend 3 months each year in northern Norway conducting Arctic warfare training in temperatures below -50 and our Hagglund BV 206's had no problems starting in those temps! Yes, we did not leave them static for weeks and weeks or months, but we had no problems.

We did have problems with the BV 202, which was a 4 cylinder petrol engine. We had to use a hand pumped blow lamp burner which would burn and produce hot air that would be blown around the engine compartment 30 mins before you would move off! not nice in extreme temperatures with wind chill to make it more interesting for you as well.

I will see if i can find some photos of this task in motion!

Later

 

[Av8r3400]

With properly conditioned fuel (even if you add the anti gelling agent yourself) and the rest of the vehicle up to scratch (compression, proper oil weight-maybe synth?) I don't believe that a diesel will have more problems starting than a gasoline motor.

I run diesels here in Wisconsin where temps will go below 0° for weeks at a time and the only problem I've ever had was my own fault. (I ran straight #2 in my Cummins - ) My "old" '86 VW sat outside most of this past winter for weeks at a time, not being used. At one point I had to move it and it started without issue. (It ran awful until it warmed up, but, that's another issue)

Now if you say that the altitude along with the cold will cause issue, I cannot argue against that (my altitude here is below 1500 msl).

 

[mtntopper]

One of the problems we encounter is all of our fuel must be purchased before we become snowbound. The quality of diesel fuel for cold weather may not be the best when bought in October as refining quality seems to follow the seasons for diesel fuel.

I believe our major problem with diesel fuel is a quality issue as stated in my prior post by having to purchase early in the season. Refining quality and anti jell of diesel fuel improves as the weather gets colder.

I worked in the mining industry and was very involved in diesel fuel quality issues for many years. I speak from this background about quality issues at the refinery level being a potential problem. In the past the oil companies with refineries controlled the quality of products produced. Ten years ago there were no government standards except in North Dakota for diesel fuel refining quality. As supplies of higher quality crude oil dwindle, I have concerns for the quality of fuel both gasoline and diesel that will be available in the future.

Just some of my thoughts with the oil problems of todays world....

 

[MontanaTweak]

For deep powder ability you want to have these things in place. As much of the vehicles weight up front as possible. High ground clearance, Smooth bottom. That witha good light track and about a .5? or less PSI and you will have the premiere Deep powder machine

Curious why weight up front versus center?

I’m toying with the idea of a ground up build and trying to research all variables.

I’ve owned a Bombi and an early hydrostatic Litefoot, a few sleds, a tracked ATV, UTV, tracked Samurai.

Old thread, sorry for the bump.

 

[redsqwrl]

weight up front is a climbing Center of gravity thought.

I examined a T4 prinoth at our recent snow cat get together and the engine and drives is in the rear. massive scania diesel and giant iron splitter box

 

[MontanaTweak]

weight up front is a climbing Center of gravity thought.

I examined a T4 prinoth at our recent snow cat get together and the engine and drives is in the rear. massive scania diesel and giant iron splitter box

I wonder about weight up front, obviously many early cats (thinking Thiokol) were designed this way. Bombardier bombi engine in the middle. Modern large diesel cats engine in is mid/rear. But in a smaller, personal cat you have the engine up front, then driver/passenger, differential in the back offsets some weight to rear.