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Fur Coats?
- Thread starter Melensdad
- Start date
Snowcat Operations
Active member
Bob, I don't really care what your wife uses a fur coat for (I would assume to wear in when it's cold out, but I guess only you and the misses would know what you're really going to do with it).
However, by asking the question on "furs" in general on this thread, and pointing out that you bought your wife one, yes, it does seem like your trying to justify it (also the fact that you presented more points to pirate girl).
As mentioned, I don't care
The reason it's less noble to buy one is because you don't have to do the work yourself. As SO mentioned, there are plenty of materials out there that would be just as warm, but bottom line, it's not a fur coat. Sort of on the vain (sp?) side as well IMO. But opinions are like assholes, I realize that.
The reason in my view why Bob started this thread was because he wanted some honost opinions on FUR and to create some wxcellent mini debates that bring a lot of people who tend not to contribute to open up and speak there minds. Part of being a good moderator is to also generate good posts. He has done so here. Everyone here so far that I have read (and I probably should have read the entire thread before posting) has had excellent posts. EVERYONE is entitled to there opinion. What strikes me as odd for years was the FUR protestors who would rant and rave about yet were wearing leather belts, leather boots, leather gloves and a such. To me a leather jacket is no diffrence than a fur coat as far as an animal had to die to provide it. No big deal since GOD put them on this planet for our needs. The diffrence stems from years of the stigma that a fur coat was a status symble. You must "have" money if your able to buy a Fur coat. When I was a kid they would let my mom back into the vault (just a fancy show room with a vault door on the front to further that image of wealth) so she could see and try on the really nice fur coats. My mom would buy one every year or so and travel with it in cold climates. San Francisco was a popular place to wear the fur coats since that Pacific winter cold wind would cut right through you. I remember once my mom wrapping me in her caot with her and it was as warm as it could be! Today that image has been destroyed which is fine but there still hard to beat for there warmth! Modern jackets (Artic apparell) do beat out a fur coat for warmth but not buy much and in some cases at the same costs. Great thread Bob.
REDDOGTWO
Unemployed Veg. Peddler
Last night, while opening presents, the wife made the remark that it had not better not be what she thought it was. For some reason she thought there was a fur coat in the box, there was not, she does not want one. She is not into that.
For the record, most of the animals that would go into a fur coat are not warm and cuddly, they are mean and vicious and would just soon take your arm if you tried to feed them.
For the record, most of the animals that would go into a fur coat are not warm and cuddly, they are mean and vicious and would just soon take your arm if you tried to feed them.
RoadKing
Silver Member
Do you know how much grain it takes to feed one cow for one year before slaughter, as opposed to how much it takes to make one loaf of bread?
Much of that grain could well be sent to third world countries to feed the starving, instead of fattening the already fatassed, diseased population we have walking around among us.
I'd rather eat a sandwich made with whole wheat bread, a thick slice of tomato,onion, pickles, swiss cheese and mustard- than a Quarter Pounder any day.
I have a mental clarity and more energy now at 47 than I did when I was 37.
That is why I won't eat or use anything animal..except for cuddling my doggie .. she's good for my health and state of mind
Besides, pork and beef made me feel like my gut was going to explode.
I cannot digest most meat properly, hence- the radical diet change years ago.
Sounding a little bit self righteous aren't we. I agree you are entitled to your opinion and lifestyle. Don't judge mine. I happen to be one of those "fatasses"
you seem to find so disgusting. I've been overweight since I was five I will be sixty in the spring. Except for a few ER visits for stitches I've haven't been near a hospital since the sixth grade when I had my apendix out. My highest cholesterol test ever was 175 and my BP runs at about 110/70 and I have never taken a prescription drug or any drug in my life. There's nothing better than bacon, eggs and grits for breakfast or a nice thick RARE steak on the grill. I will admit some people's systems work better on what suits them.
As far as being "fatassed" I remember the pictures you posted of yourself when you joined FF and you could stand to lose a few pounds. I'm usually a pretty subdued guy until somebody attacks my bacon.
Snowcat Operations
Active member
I will only make one point here. Do you know how long it takes a Family to eat a WHOLE cow???????? It takes my wife and I about 18mo to eat half a critter. I bet a whole critter would last a Family of four at least 2 years. And yes we eat beef at at least 7 meals a week!!! as for all that grain??? 40-50 bushels of corn does not make that much bread.... And besides alot of the beef in this area never even sees grain it is strictly GRASS FED... I would personally eat a steak and a good burger than some field corn any day. But that is my opinion, and you are entitled to yours.
DaveNay
Klaatu barada nikto
I'm still unsure why some people consider it cruel to wear a fur coat but not cruel to eat a fish, scramble an egg, or wear leather shoes.
Because...
hypocrite
Main Entry:hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date:13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective
thcri
Gone But Not Forgotten
Quote:
Originally Posted by B_Skurka
I'm still unsure why some people consider it cruel to wear a fur coat but not cruel to eat a fish, scramble an egg, or wear leather shoes.
Because...
Quote:
hypocrite
Main Entry:hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date:13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective
We have an area town that has a Gopher Count Days Festival. Yep catch all the pocket gophers you can and cut off the feet and bring them in for the count. (When I was very young the county I lived in paid for each set of front feet and I use to trap them) Anyway back to the Festival on one of the planning meetings a girl came in to talk about how cruel this was. Hypocrite, she had a Doberman (ears sniped and tail cut) and leather pants on.
murph
BoneheadNW
Active member
Self righteous or not, I believe the medical community is agreed that the U.S. population has an alarming rate of obesity. Whether or not you have been in the hospital for your weight problem, that does not mean that being overweight is not a health risk. I know this is off topic, but I wanted to set the record straight.
Bone
OK it is off topic, but it is not strictly related to eating meat, in fact a large part of the problem is related to the high carbohydrate and high fat intake that people who ingest fast foods and snack foods seem to eat. Too many french fries, potato chips, quick burgers, soda pops and milk shakes. What the medical community seems to agree upon is that a healthy diet includes a good balance of fat, protein and carbohydrates with some specific needs for amino acids, some of which are very difficult to obtain in a vegetarian diet.
But back to the fur issue, it does seem that DaveNay hit it on the head a couple times and the term does indeed seem to be hypocrite but I believe that is an incomplete term. I'd like to amend it to include the word judgemental so that we are really looking at are judgemental hypocrites.
mak2
Active member
Bob point taken but lets try not to make it look like a personal attack on PG. She is kinda pleasant to have around. So lets suffice it to say it is almost impossible to be a complete vegatarian in todays society. So unless one is completely obsessed some animal products will used, if even by accident. Like that half pound of ham i ate today.
Not my intent at all.
Just matter of fact statement that seems to apply to a pretty broad spectrum of the anti-fur people. Most folks who oppose fur are not members of the radical animal right groups like PETA, most are just average people who lump fur owners into the category of 'rich bitch', 'cruel' or 'vein' because they choose to wear a fur, but most also wear leather, eat meat, and don't consider shearling to be fur.
I still don't understand the cruel argument and nobody has even bothered to explain how it is cruel compared to the scenario that I laid out. I'm not sure that I understand vein, given that most people spend all sorts of money on making themselves look good in many other ways. I just don't get it.
dzalphakilo
Banned
I like fur coats. I like to hunt, fish, etc. too.
We all got fatassed because we no longer HAVE to hunt, fish, etc to get our food or clothing if we don't want to. I had a friend who is a vegetarian, and he swore his problem was eating meat too. I told him of he got his chunky butt out from in front of the TV and video games and climbed down off his high horse, then only ate or wore what he could hunt, fish, trap, or grow, that not only would he be in better shape than he's ever been, but he'd have a real appreciation for critters and their purpose here on earth. The same bunch that cries foul for the "poor animals" are typically pro-abortion. Go figure...
It's true that some folks have a physiological issue digesting meat protiens, just the same as some can't have whey, gluten, or nuts. If we had continued to live off the land and it's animals, how many of these problems would we have??? My bet is very darn few if any. You want a fur coat or big fat juicy steak? More power to you.
We all got fatassed because we no longer HAVE to hunt, fish, etc to get our food or clothing if we don't want to. I had a friend who is a vegetarian, and he swore his problem was eating meat too. I told him of he got his chunky butt out from in front of the TV and video games and climbed down off his high horse, then only ate or wore what he could hunt, fish, trap, or grow, that not only would he be in better shape than he's ever been, but he'd have a real appreciation for critters and their purpose here on earth. The same bunch that cries foul for the "poor animals" are typically pro-abortion. Go figure...
It's true that some folks have a physiological issue digesting meat protiens, just the same as some can't have whey, gluten, or nuts. If we had continued to live off the land and it's animals, how many of these problems would we have??? My bet is very darn few if any. You want a fur coat or big fat juicy steak? More power to you.
dzalphakilo
Banned
You realize it's going into the year 2008?
Don't know about you, but considering I work a good 50 to 60 hours a week during the day, if my food and clothing depended on what I hunted, I'd be in serious trouble. Don't think fur trading will pay the house payments to boot. I hunt to be outside and see how close I can get to the animal. If I harvest somthing, great, if not, I enjoyed my time.
However, I agree 120% that if you kill it, you have every right to wear it or provide it for your family.
DZ, earlier in the thread you indicated that my wife wearing fur is a lot different than an eskimo wearing fur because eskimos live off the land and my wife does not. You implied that people living off the land were somehow more noble in their use of animals and implied they had extra legitimacy that others do not have. But now you seem to imply that you don't need to live off the land to use animal products like meat, leather, or pelts because you, yourself, don't have the ability eat food gathered from the forests or to dress in pelts based on your hunting skills.willie said:
So which is it? Do you finally buy into the argument that we are all interdependent for our needs and the society has become one of specialty where one person makes coats, another butchers hogs, still others make tables or TV sets and we all 'trade' our labor for these 'things' that we want? If you agree with that, as your statement indicates, then why would it be OK for the eskimos to wear fur but not so much for my wife?
dzalphakilo
Banned
Bob, I eat meat. Do I eat only what I hunt? Heck no. Do I like the way some of the meat is harvested for general use? No. I won't eat veal as well as some other "products" once I found out how that meat is harvested.
You read some "pro fur" brochures at the fur shop. Do you think a fur shop will have anything else but "pro fur" brochures?
Meat in our diet could be argued as a nessestiy sp?.
One reason why I guess there are more leather products in the marketplace as well.
Could the same be said for wearing a fur coat?
Don't know many people that eat fox, wolf or beaver at a restaurant (EDIT: it has been brought to my attention by another member here that when I mentioned "beaver", I'm not talking about your girlfriend or wife
).What it all comes down to is if you have the money to buy what you want, nothing more.
As mentioned before, with technology, there are materials for clothing that make it warmer, "breathable", water resistant than actual "real" fur.
I guess for myself, what it all comes down to is why you want a fur coat.
From personal experience, and I'm digging myself a hole here I realize, I have noticed that women and men who wear fur "as fashion" do have a set of personal values different from my own.
As far as the "bitch" comment I made, I also noticed (from personal experience) that women who wear fur socially sp? tend to think their crap dosen't stink, that they are "number one" in your life even if you don't know it, and they never unlock your driver side car door when you open the passenger car door for them. They also tend to yank your rear view mirror in their direction when you're driving so they can put makeup on.
The above was from observing three women, and I realize that they may not represent women "as a whole".
I realize your wife could be different, but it's what I've noticed and experienced in my own life to form my own opinions, particularly with women wearing fur coats.
The phrase "different strokes for different folks" and "whatever floats your boat" comes to mind per this topic.
Per the Eskimo's, I guess the difference IMO is nessesity sp? and the actual respect they show the animal. Don't know many hunters around me who actually say a prayer for the animal once it is harvested.
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Cityboy
Banned
ddrane2115
Charter Member
I got a leather jacket for Christmas. Chances are the the skin for my coat came from an animal that was also used for food, somewhere. Furbearers, in most cases are NOT used for food, they are raised commercially especially to provide fur. I hunted raccoon a few times, till one nite we did get a kill. I found out right there that this human would not use anything but the fur...........and I never went back. If you have a mink coat, chances are the animals used in it's production were never food for humans. Same with some feline coats also.
Back in the day a man wearing a warm bear skin coat, also used that animal to feed his family, I have no problem with that. I have seen deer skin clothing, and both deer I have killed, even the skin was used. I am not against meat eating, hunting, or the use of animal skins that are another use for the animal, I am against killing an animal for its skin alone.
Back in the day a man wearing a warm bear skin coat, also used that animal to feed his family, I have no problem with that. I have seen deer skin clothing, and both deer I have killed, even the skin was used. I am not against meat eating, hunting, or the use of animal skins that are another use for the animal, I am against killing an animal for its skin alone.
dzalphakilo
Banned
Do you think any "high dollar fur company" is going to tell you that the animals used for the garment was raised for only it's fur?
Do you think any "high dollar fur company" is going to tell you that the animals used for the garment was raised for only it's fur?
Growing up, I had a friend that was a Mink farmer. They turned the Mink meat into dog food as part of their rendering operation. Seemed to me that the whole animal was getting utilized.
dzalphakilo
Banned
What is the animal's primary reason for being "raised"?
Not for animal food rendering factories, for their skin.
Apologies, anyone wanting to wear a coat made from animals who were born and bred (the animals in question) just for their skin is just plain sick.
Yes, at least for myself, there is a difference between a pelt being taken from the wild and one from a "farm".
Would love to ask the owner of a mink farm if it would be ok to breed his wife and then skin his child for some handwarmers
Agreed. I don't know of many fur-raising places that would survive if they didn't use the rest of the animal for money-making, ie, pet food, etc. People tend to ASSUME that because they might find something personally repulsive that everyone should. I've found that folks start getting uppity once they're three or four generations removed from the farm and no longer have a real sense of what it takes to raise their food. As far as this being 2008 and working 50-60 hours per week, you missed but made my whole point. People who live a "subsistence" lifestyle generally don't have the health problems we do and that was my whole point. Working hard just to eat and going hungry once in a while because your efforts were unsuccessful would cure the fatass disease. Instead, folks who live off the land wholly have famine, starvation, and other issues they have to contend with (such as often being at a lesser place in the food chain-or being prey to the right/wrong critter), as well as a generally shorter lifespan. I don't think there is anything more "noble" about their lives, as a matter of fact I think it is rather condescending to view them as "quaint" or "noble" because they aren't as "civilized" as we are. Do we waste more in general than Eskimos or like folks? Generally speaking, without a doubt. But I'd be willing to bet that if we looked at what it really takes to make the "better" man-made fibers that are being touted that there is less overall waste with furs or leathers, and guess what, they are a renewable resource. With the use of that renewable resource there is definitely stewardship issues to deal with, but to insist that wearing fur or hunting is somehow immoral because we don't "have" to is absurd.
I don't think there is any real difference between an animal being raised for its skin or its meat. The only issue is which resource is being considered a usable by-product. Is it more moral to raise an animal just for your personal enjoyment or companionship, such as a pet? Isn't that kind of dooming the wonderful animal to a life of slavery and subservient duty? Folks can rationalize their beliefs any way they want. Don't be a hypocrite.
I don't think there is any real difference between an animal being raised for its skin or its meat. The only issue is which resource is being considered a usable by-product. Is it more moral to raise an animal just for your personal enjoyment or companionship, such as a pet? Isn't that kind of dooming the wonderful animal to a life of slavery and subservient duty?
Folks can rationalize their beliefs any way they want. Don't be a hypocrite.
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dzalphakilo
Banned
There we have a huge difference of opinion.
I go by the belief that you only kill what you intend to eat (and using the pelt utilizes part of the body), or kill that which intends to kill you. Pest issues are another matter that must be dealt with accordingly (such as losing livestock to predators).
That is my belief, so how am I a hypocrite?
I mentioned before, I'm not against all people wearing fur.
dzalphakilo
Banned
It totally amazes me that city folks have no clue to what it is like in the real world, outside the Condo Assn.
In Stark contrast to what PETA (the other PETA with the fuzzy animals guys) they watch a episode of "Grizzly Adams" and figure that all the animals in the wild do group hugs....
No animal in the real world dies a "peaceful" death, with the exception of a few cases, they are torn apart by a preditor of some sort, man is the most humane by far in taking prey in most cases.
Doesn't matter if it is a field mouse getting speared by an owl's talons or a moose being torn apart alive by a pack of wolves, or a whale having it's calf beat to death by Killer Whales so they can dine on it.... Nobody makes it out alive!
The only animals that die a peaceful death is our house pets, we have taken the wild out of them and they can't fend for themselves in most cases, and would die if you tossed them out the door into the wild.
Having a fur in our past history ment that a person would be warm and survive the cold. It also ment that the person that supplied it was a great hunter, which was quite a feat, concidering it was mostly taken by a spear, rock or arrow. As time progressed, we still use the animals as was ordained by God, The Grand Wizzard, Alla or natural selection, which ever makes one feel better, they are all fully interchangible to suit one's "correct" belief.
Regardless, we are part of the food chain and the animals that we kill for that end should be used for whatever is needed, and not using the fur is waste, but even that will degrade and return to the Earth as part of the natural cycle.
So I guess as the "Far Left" see it, if a wolf is killing your dog, and you shoot it, it is better to throw the pelt in the trash than to wear it as a coat to honor the wolf's life?
That is the same with a cow, chicken, pig, and sheep you use everything that you take which is the way it should be.
The only person that I would say has a honest Issue with wearing fur, is one that is 100% vegitarian, uses no animal parts what so ever... which is still almost impossible even in this modern world... so that makes even most of them a hipocrite, which is far worse than someone who honors and uses life and what it gives us.
Wearing fur is not only good looking, it is extremely practical. Fall into a frozen lake or river and try not to die wearing the "New Modern Fabrics", and you will more often as not, die unless you can reach shelter.
I get such a kick out watching these clowns come to Alaska with all their hi tech camping gear, and as soon as it gets damp, they are freezing.
I have a seal skin hat that I can't wear unless it below zero, it is too warm... nothing modern in it, except maybe the head under it....
All preditors have the eyes facing forward, prey has their eyes on the side in an attempt to keep from being prey.... Guess where God, The Grand Wizzard, Alla or ____________(insert your version) eyes are at, and they isn't for grazing in the yard....irate:
Uhm, could you make your point in less than four sentences? Perhaps its just me, but I'm not sure what it is.
If by chance that it's everything must die, and sometimes it's violent, and you should utilize every part of the animals body, I agree.
By the way, my "high tech" wool clothes worked just fine when I was in Alaska.
ddrane2115
Charter Member
Dont buy it, they may do this, but the main reason for the animal is the skin, fur etc. the by product is the meat for other animals.
Still wrong.............
ddrane2115
Charter Member
Do you think any "high dollar fur company" is going to tell you that the animals used for the garment was raised for only it's fur?
chances are they have no idea how the fur was harvested, unless they own a farm for fur in which makes them real jerks.