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Natural Gas furnaces being regulated out of existences, long live Electric & Heat Pumps?

Melensdad

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
I live in an area with Natural Gas is cheap and reliable. With a N.G. furnace I can keep my home heated for far less than it would cost to use electric heat (which is also not reliable in my area during winter storms).

Interesting, looks like 1/2 of all homeowners are in for an energy shock when it comes time to replace their gas furnace. Anyone with a non-condensing furnace is going to be forced to upgrade to a high efficiency condensing furnace (which sometimes it not possible due to space and venting requirements). Or they will need to switch to electric heating or a heat pumps, both of which are electric and both of which actually cost more to operate.

Seems like if I have a non-condensing unit, I think I might buy an extra heat exchanger/burner system just to keep it on hand for parts exchange when the inevible happens. I'm going to have to find out what I actually have down there.


justthenews.com

Natural gas industry files legal challenge against DOE rules targeting gas furnaces

The groups say the rules, which were finalized in September, will impact more than half of all U.S. households.
justthenews.com justthenews.com


Natural gas industry files legal challenge against DOE rules targeting gas furnaces​

The groups say the rules, which were finalized in September, will impact more than half of all U.S. households.​

The U.S. natural gas industry is pushing back against the Biden administration's regulations targeting gas-powered residential furnaces.​
​
The American Gas Association, along with several trade organizations and a manufacturer, filed a legal challenge Monday against the Department of Energy over the regulations.​
​
The groups say the rules, which were finalized in September, will impact more than half of all U.S. households.​
​
"AGA has attempted to work with the Department of Energy to address the rule's profound impacts on consumers and homeowners with a solutions-oriented approach to energy conservation that protects consumers and ensures continued availability of low-cost, low-emission natural gas furnaces. Unfortunately, our 114 pages of comments have been summarily ignored," AGA President and CEO Karen Harbert said in a statement.​
​
The rules, the groups argue, will prove impossible to implement in many homes, especially older and lower-income dwellings. Citing the DOE's figures, the AGA insisted the increased electricity bills will be more than three times higher than natural gas.​
​
"This ruling from DOE will push American families with natural gas heat into a corner – when their furnace goes out, they'll be forced to choose between retrofitting for electric with the increased month-to-month utility bills that entails or engaging in a costly and time-consuming renovation to retrofit their home for a completely different type of natural gas furnace. Either way, American families and businesses will be saddled with increased costs with little environmental gain," Herbert added.​
 
if you can install a condensing style, it'll pay for the up cost in gas consumption. been there, done that.

they aren't significantly "bigger" - pvc pipe is used for the outside air intake and the exhaust. the condensate has to be pumped to "some where" . . .
 
Problems come into play for homeowners living in "row house" type housing that can't vent out through an exterior wall, because there are exhaust distance limits for condensing vents.

Older homes that have a furnace located in the center, or center of the basement, may have to totally recreate the furnace, the cost of relocation can be extensive too.

Again, this affects, according to the group, 55% of US houses. That is not a small number.

Screenshot 2023-12-20 at 12.36.30 PM.png
 
I have a condensing furnace. The plumbing of intake and exhaust was very complicated.
I now need to modify it for a room addition. No way I get a permit otherwise.

In this county,,,;
The furnace must be no more than10 feet from the outside wall. And exhausting five feet from any window or door opening. Mine already is at 10 feet, and I want to add a four-foot-wide bathroom shower. The only "window" is a sealed 48" X48"glass block in one wall with an opening Skylight in the ceiling.

My HVAC guy tells me it is unlikely.
 
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Franc that has to be frustrating. Any chance of repositioning the entire furnace so it still uses the same ductwork but uses a new exhaust that is not too far from the exterior wall? I had to have a booster fan installed in my system to comply with a code change.

I had a situation at my home where the code changed while I have lived here.

I've always had a condensing style here.

But replaced it a year ago with a new one.

The exhaust, although in the original spot, is now "too close" to a patio door. So they extended the exhaust pipe about 18" to the outside corner of a wall, and then put in an exhaust booster fan because the new 18" extension put the total exhaust length beyond the allowable limits without a fan.

So even replacing a condensing unit with a new condensing unit can lead to grief and added costs.
 
chowderman said:
the manufacturer's install has a 20 ft limit - local obsolete codes may differ.
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Building code wins, even if it is not 'right' in the technical sense, they tend to err on the side of super safe.

I will be curious to see how Franc gets out of his personal dilemma. I'm sure many others are going to fall into a similar situation with a remodel or retrofit issue. I got really lucky, only needing 18" of extension to my system.

And this is the problem for many people in townhomes/row house type units where the exhaust is run up a chimney. They have no realistic way of converting to a condensing unit from a non-condensing unit because they simply can't exhaust out of an exterior wall.

I own multiple multi-resident properties and not possible to install the condensing units into my duplex neighborhood. Fortunately for me, they have tenant paid. But if I to condo them out, the one thing that I'd, as a potential buyer, would want to do would be to convert to a lower cost heat source. Just like 55% of homeowners, its not practical, regulations win, consumers lose.
 
chowderman said:
the manufacturer's install has a 20 ft limit - local obsolete codes may differ.
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I'm just repeating what my HVAC installer said.
As for the flue channel in my 1972 Ranch style house, I converted it to an HVAC chase so as to heat and cool the 2nd floor loft. I went electric on the water heater. Therefore, I have no need of a flue.

The building inspector never liked the way the original builder set the flue system. Every time he came out to approve something else he chastised me for it. This was the best solution at that time. The are really critical of private homeowner's work. But the Furnace / Hot water heater was done by a very large professional company. He still made them alter their original venting and added ten feet outside to clear a window. So perhaps Chowderman is correct.

One has to pitch the exhaust, so the condensate water drains back to the furnace and out to the sewer. So perhaps I can grandfather this in by removing the 90 degree elbow and going straight out four feet.
 
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KitKat2023 said:
How can the power grids keep up unless they do something about those first?
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It cannot and will not. Our grid is under sized, susceptible to both cyber attacks and EMP attacks. Currently nothing is being done about it and there is no indication that anything will in the near term. The outlook is bleak. Some of my old friends still with Vermont Electric and Green Mountain Power back up what I am saying. The majority of the funds spent has been pissed away on so called green energy feel good projects at the expense of reliable base load power generation.
 
Try using propane to heat your house, it was $600.00 per month a couple years ago when winter lasted a little longer than my wood. Now it would likely be $1000.00. It doesn't even get that cold here AVG 50 day 30 nite. I have been cutting and trimming trees, that need to be done anyway to keep my home insurance from being raised or canceled for any reason ( now $3200.00 per year ) because of fire danger. It gives me cheap heat but in another season everything will be like a park here and end my free heat.
 
I heat my 3550 sq. ft. home off two heat pumps with only propane as a backup for when it gets really cold. My power bill averages $100-200 a month through the year depending on how hot or cold it is. I haven't filled a propane tank yet this year. They aren't even hooked up at the moment. Heat pumps aren't that bad. But I do support the freedom to choose.
 
XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq said:
I heat my 3550 sq. ft. home off two heat pumps with only propane as a backup for when it gets really cold. My power bill averages $100-200 a month through the year depending on how hot or cold it is. I haven't filled a propane tank yet this year. They aren't even hooked up at the moment. Heat pumps aren't that bad. But I do support the freedom to choose.
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Im @2400 sq, problem here is electricity is also expensive. AVG $300.00 winter and $600.00 summer.
 
m1west said:
Im @2400 sq, problem here is electricity is also expensive. AVG $300.00 winter and $600.00 summer.
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My house, kitchen, laundry shop, is mostly electric. I am heating about 2,500 square foot, with a condensing furnace, and some electric space heaters in the Greenhouse and the outlying rooms. My electric bill is over $300 a month. Gas is about $200 a month in winter. Virtually zero come summer.

Utilites aren't cheap here in MO either.
 
FrancSevin said:
My house, kitchen, laundry shop, is mostly electric. I am heating about 2,500 square foot, with a condensing furnace, and some electric space heaters in the Greenhouse and the outlying rooms. My electric bill is over $300 a month. Gas is about $200 a month in winter. Virtually zero come summer.

Utilites aren't cheap here in MO either.
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I'm never going to complain about my electric bill (don't tell my wife) its 120-150 in the winter 220-250 in summer with ac's running
propane heat we have 2 100 gallon tanks sofar this year about 600 in propane @1.60 a gallon we also have a summer kitchen on our enclosed porch with gas range and gas griddle (no grill any more)
 
m1west said:
Try using propane to heat your house, it was $600.00 per month a couple years ago when winter lasted a little longer than my wood. Now it would likely be $1000.00. It doesn't even get that cold here AVG 50 day 30 nite. I have been cutting and trimming trees, that need to be done anyway to keep my home insurance from being raised or canceled for any reason ( now $3200.00 per year ) because of fire danger. It gives me cheap heat but in another season everything will be like a park here and end my free heat.
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You pay that much for propane pera month? We have propane and we fill up once or twice a year at $600 to $800.
 
KitKat2023 said:
You pay that much for propane pera month? We have propane and we fill up once or twice a year at $600 to $800.
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How do you come to that conclusion you don't know all the variables like house size , insulation , location, cost per gallon of propane to start???
 
FrancSevin said:
My house, kitchen, laundry shop, is mostly electric. I am heating about 2,500 square foot, with a condensing furnace, and some electric space heaters in the Greenhouse and the outlying rooms. My electric bill is over $300 a month. Gas is about $200 a month in winter. Virtually zero come summer.

Utilites aren't cheap here in MO either.
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Correction, My gas bill for last month was $360. The weather was mild, the rate increase was not.
 
KitKat2023 said:
You pay that much for propane pera month? We have propane and we fill up once or twice a year at $600 to $800.
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I would have to check the bill, but propane delivered is well over $3.00 a gallon here, between propane stove, hot water and if I used the furnace all the time would use most of a tank of propane. with day temps in the 50's and nite 30-40.
 
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