Looking at buying a Compact Electric SUV, why is Tesla not on the "best list?"

[Melensdad]

No surprise I'm looking at new vehicles.

Initially looking at hybrids, generally started looking at mid-size hybrid sedans or SUVs. The more seriously I looking at the driving for the vehicle the more it looked like an Electric might do the job for us.

Set a basic $60,000 price limit for the vehicle, because while money can get you anything, I want to focus on practicality and my butt, cloaked with Tommy Johns and then covered again by Wrangler jeans, can't tell the difference between premium leather and pretend leather. The price limit is moveable, could just as easily go up as not, but it gives me a starting point.

So I go to DuckDuckGo and search "10 best EV SUV"

EDMUNDS Lists their top 5...
1 Hyundai Ionic 5 Limited - 270miles/AWD
2 Ford Mustang Mach E / Extended Range - 303miles/AWD
3 Kia EV6 GT Line - 261miles
4 VW I.D.4 AWD Pro-S - 287 miles/AWD
5 Nissan Aria - 265 miles

Tesla's model Y is not on the list. All of the above 5 vehicles are in the roughly $45K to $65k depending upon options. Tesla model Y is the best selling EV on the market. It is, in most trims, in the $50-$65 price range, so essentially the same price ranges as the vehicles listed by Edmunds.

CAR AND DRIVER list their top 10. The Top 5 on the Car & Driver list as the same cars I just listed above. Spots 2 and 3 are flipped on the C&D list. But the lists are the same. Tesla is missing.

MotorTrend gave me a different list all together.
Top vehicle is the Hyundai Ionic 5,
2nd best is the Kia EV6,
3rd was listed the Tesla Model Y

Why is the BEST SELLING Tesla Model Y not on the majority of the lists I found? Literally not on the lists at all? WTH? Similar pricing, similar features, similar sizes and outsells all the others.

Briefly looking at some videos, the lovely Mrs_Bob is favoring the Hyundai Ionic 5. This would be her car. It replaces my car, which has become the "Kobe Car" because it is the car that typically has the baby seat installed. So I rarely drive it unless we are all going out together. Sort of by default, it became the lovely Mrs_Bob's car.

New vehicle should be no larger than the Audi A6 sedan physically. It should have a turning radius no larger than the Audi A6 sedan. It should have more truck space than the Audi A6 sedan. So basically we are looking for something that is the A6 in SUV shape/format, but runs as either an efficient hybrid or EV. Started with Hybrids, but looks like EV might work well too.

RANGE is MY issue. RANGE is NOT my wife's issue. I want 300 miles. She could easily live with a 200 mile range. We are not looking for a 'drive it across the country' car. We are looking for a charge it at home and drive it around car, but SOME of our day trips would push the limits of 250 mile range. Not many, but some.

My list:

Fisker Ocean - good design and great looks, but brand new & unproven, with 340 mile range
Tesla Y - butt ugly, proven, with 330 mile range
Hyundai Ionic 5 - good looking, proven, 266 mile range

Passenger space for all 3 vehicles are very similar.
Physical dimensions for all 3 vehicles are similar.
Turning radius is similar for all 3 vehicles.
Luggage space winner is clearly the Tesla's Y, Ionic 5 next most usable and Ocean smallest but all 3 are adequate for our needs

Price outfitted as I would order it, rounded to next highest $100:

Tesla Model Y - $57,000
Hyundai Ionic 5 - $54,500​

Fisker Ocean - $58,100​

Ionic 5 is the only one with cooling ventilated front seats (nice)
Ionic 5 has reclining front seats with extending leg rests (wife likes)
Ionic 5 is the only one with an auto opening tailgate hatch (wife likes)
Model Y is the only one with heated REAR seats
Ocean allows ALL windows to be be raised/lowered, including back hatch (wife likes)
Ocean and Model Y do not include Apple CarPlay, both have a proprietary phone connection (I like CarPlay)

Ionic 5 has shortest range. But the vehicle meets all creature comfort and features criteria, and is easily available.

Model Y is ugly. But it meets every other criteria nicely so it should be considered, and it is easily available.

OCEAN is the gut choice, its fast, longest range, good looks, but pre-ordering takes MONTHS to get and some of the software needs to be completed so its sort of a bet. Reviews are favorable from Tesla owners who own both or a switching.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

A few months back I did a long trip in a friends Tesla (about 420 miles each way). I would say that one of the most important things was the availability of the Tesla super charger stations. Super charging was relatively fast but a little longer than what might be a typical pitstop. We had to stop twice on each leg of our trip in order to make sure we had enough charge for driving around when we got to our destination. Each stop was probably around 30 minutes.
I would not want to have an electric car that wasn´t able to utilize a good charging station network with high speed chargers. Aside from everything else this should be one of the main criteria for your selection.

 

[Melensdad]

A few months back I did a long trip in a friends Tesla (about 420 miles each way). I would say that one of the most important things was the availability of the Tesla super charger stations.

….

I would not want to have an electric car that wasn´t able to utilize a good charging station network with high speed chargers. Aside from everything else this should be one of the main criteria for your selection.

Supposedly Hyundai, Ford, etc, etc, etc are switching to the Tesla format.

Supposedly there are adapter plugs available for any vehicle to utilize any charger?

There seem to be 3 standard format plugs in use now but with people/cars adopting the Tesla plug it will all end up being the Tesla plug as standard soon

 

[chowderman]

this is dated July 2023

Here Are the EVs That Can Charge at Tesla Superchargers Starting in 2024

If you have a Ford, GM, Rivian, Volvo, Mercedes—and now Nissan—electric vehicle, charging in the US will soon be a lot easier as they adopt the Tesla charging port.

www.pcmag.com

and this morning I tripped over:

MSN

 

[Melensdad]

What that doesn't say is there are adapter plugs you can buy so you can use any system.

Might not be able to access all the features using the adapters at some of the charging stations but you can get a charge to get home, and to me that would be enough.

I need to look into any discounts offered for "off prime" charging times & rates, see if my utility offers those, that would drop the cost per KW down a bit. I know they had a pilot program at about 8-cents a KW but that was several years ago. Not sure if there is anything offered today. But worth looking into.

We would still have at least 2 or 3 internal combustion vehicles for other types of trips. Probably going to get rid of the 2010 VW Jetta TDI if we buy a new electric vehicle. Then probably gift the Audi A6 TDI to Dasha as a college graduation present if she ever bothers to get her driver's license. We are currently a 4 vehicle (not including motorcycles), 2 driver family so I would not need the little Jetta, which has become my 'daily driver' currently while the Ridgeline is relegated to hauling and the lovely Mrs_Bob's Audi convertible is exclusively used by her. I'd just switch to driving the A6 until Dasha graduates and then give it to her, then I'd consider buying another vehicle or maybe just driving the Ridgeline as the daily driver.

 

[chowderman]

there's two issues in play here . . .

first, the size/shape/configuration of the physical plug. most EV makes provide 'adapters' as standard with the purchase.

the second issue is whether the specific EV can "accept" the high speed Tesla SuperCharger voltage / current.
rather a lot of (current) models , , , cannot. . . . it's a reserved privilege for Tesla owners . . .
however, for a mere millions . . . Tesla will license their technology to Ford, etc etc etc

there's
Level 1 - 110v household plug in charging
Level 2 - 220v faster household charging
and
Tesla SuperCharging - requires super-duper voltage/current supply to make it work . . . but only on EVs designed to take that super-duper rate of recharging.

which is the major debate du-jour among major car/EV makers.

solid state batteries will be a major changer of game - but solid state batteries are very much currently like the Tesla pick up truck . . lots of gab, lots of denied reality issues, lots of promises with no real delivery date . . .
solid state has so much potential, one would hope it eventually trans from 'wild ass dreams' to 'reality'
likely, seriously . . . a 900 mile range? (pessisimo...450 miles in cold weather....) that is, if true, a gas tank range killer....

well, except in Antarctica . . .

 

[Ross 650]

The game changer would be driving along and people waving at you because they think they saw dumbiden driving it. Before I get a street driven golf cart I will go back to horses. No plug required!!!! I will never obey any of the idiots wishes. Have a goodun!!!

 

[Melensdad]

… Before I get a street driven golf cart I will go back to horses. No plug required!!!! I will never obey any of the idiots wishes. …

I’m looking at them because they are more economical and faster too. They have their limits, obviously. But as a second vehicle (we are a 4 vehicle family [not counting motorcycles] with only 2 drivers) an electric vehicle makes a lot of economic sense.

 

[waybomb]

What's that ev going to be with in 15 years? Where those economic values? Will replacement batteries even be available? If not, what's the car worth?
I'm looking for another v12 car.

 

[Melensdad]

What's that ev going to be with in 15 years? Where those economic values? Will replacement batteries even be available? If not, what's the car worth?
I'm looking for another v12 car.

I don’t know. Don’t care. I think they are throw-aways. My 2010 Jetta diesel runs fine but needs a $5000 emissions part to comply with some government standard. Resale vale on the car is worth less than the ‘repair’ so I didn’t bother fixing it. But at 14 years old I had my fun and got my money’s worth out of it. Figured I’d give it to Dasha but now figure it will be traded in on whatever I buy and I’ll probably give Dasha the Audi.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

I'm still struggling with the price of new vehicles to even consider an electric or even hybrid. My truck is a 2017 that listed for 65k new Canadian. I bought it used in 2018 with 45k on it for 38,500. Now, to replace my f150 with a brand new f150 lightning with the extended battery as that would be a must in the great white north, the price for a basic lightning specd similarly to mine is starting at 95k. Even a gas version of the exact same specd truck as mine is ridiculous. I saw an ad yesterday for a used 2022 f150 with basically the same options as mine and the same mileage as mine when I got it and the truck was listed for $67500 USED!!! Wow. My truck is in good shape so I'm going to be keeping it a while longer. I typically replaced my vehicle about every 4 years. I have had this one since 2018 and used ones that age are still selling for the same price I paid for mine 5 years ago. It doesn't make sense to me to even bother looking at anything other than a truck as I more often than not have some sort of trailer attached.

Another Question I have yet to get an answer to from anyone is this...will I be able to install a fifth wheel hitch in the box of the f150 lightning the same as I have with my current f150 and be able to tow our 31ft fifth wheel rv? Better yet, will any future ev be able to tow a fifth wheel? As a fifth wheel hitch has to be mounted through the box directly to the frame and how will that work if the entirety underbody is taken up by battery?

 

[Melensdad]

I'm still struggling with the price of new vehicles to even consider an electric or even hybrid. ...

I've got no answers for you. Zero.

All vehicles seem insanely expensive to me these days. And the sales pitch for "Vegan Leather" is that it is actually recycled PET water bottles seems just as insane, because we would just call it a plastic/vinyl interior if we were honest about it.

I doubt there are viable vehicles for you your need if you are hauling a trailer.

Right now for a COMPACT to MIDSIZE city/suburban ELECTRIC vehicle it seems like there are actually a lot of options that COULD be viable choices on the near luxury and luxury end of the price spectrum. But for true low prices, gas is king. For a slight bump in price, and a big bump in fuel efficiency, the HYBRIDs seem to rule.

 

[XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq]

There are even differences at the Tesla Super Chargers. Certain super chargers can charge faster than others depending on the model of Tesla and the super charger. Tesla as a company has done an impressive job with the whole infrastructure around their cars.

I would be surprised if you can charge a non-Tesla vehicle as fast as a Tesla at Tesla charging station. Just like charging a Tesla at a non-Tesla charging station probably takes longer.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

I've got no answers for you. Zero.

All vehicles seem insanely expensive to me these days. And the sales pitch for "Vegan Leather" is that it is actually recycled PET water bottles seems just as insane, because we would just call it a plastic/vinyl interior if we were honest about it.

I doubt there are viable vehicles for you your need if you are hauling a trailer.

Right now for a COMPACT to MIDSIZE city/suburban ELECTRIC vehicle it seems like there are actually a lot of options that COULD be viable choices on the near luxury and luxury end of the price spectrum. But for true low prices, gas is king. For a slight bump in price, and a big bump in fuel efficiency, the HYBRIDs seem to rule.

Just for fun, I went on ford's website and specd out a new f150 hybrid. Not as bad as I thought originally. With similar options to my truck so we're comparing apples to apples, a new f150 hybrid is around 75k. Mine listed for 65k in 2017. But if I select the fully electronic version that adds another 20k to the price. Might be worth looking into after I see how they perform as my current f150 with the 3.5l v6 has plenty of towing torque for my needs. But if I were to go that route in a year or two, I would probably go with the 5l engine for one simple reason....I need a plow truck and rather than have another dedicated driveline that I have to maintain, I would get rid of my old plow truck and have a newer one mounted on the f150. I can't now with mine with the 3.5l because of the turbos

 

[Melensdad]

I would be surprised if you can charge a non-Tesla vehicle as fast as a Tesla at Tesla charging station. Just like charging a Tesla at a non-Tesla charging station probably takes longer.

I agree, based on what I've looked at.

But if this is not a cross country driving vehicle then all I'd need is a long enough charge to get back home. So even if it charges a bit slow, if I only need to get 50 miles added to the range, it's not that big of a deal.

Again, in my case, IF WE GO 100% ELECTRIC on this next vehicle, it will be 1 of 4 vehicles in a 2 driver family.

Other than a weekend at Notre Dame, a 100% electric would do everything my wife needs done. And it would do a lot of what I need done too. But if I was going to ND for the weekend, it is likely I'd take a different vehicle for that trip.

I'm still not really convinced on buying an EV. I wouldn't mind having one. I like the economy. I still look at the TOYOTA CROWN, which is a very nice sedan, basically same as my Audi A6. 40 miles per gallon. So good economy, not as powerful of an engine, but this will be the "Kobe Car" and it will house the baby seat 95% of the time. Doesn't need to be a high performance car to haul around a car seat and a little kid. The Crown, outfitted as I like, is about $51,000 right now.

Tesla Model Y and Hyundai Ionic 5 are much closer to $60,000. Add $1500/$2000 for an in-home charger + installation.

So again, what do I really want? If 'saving money' is the top priority, spending $10,000 to save $1000 per year is not really a great trade off. Honestly the Toyota Crown "Limited" Hybrid with the "Technology" package seems like it might be the smartest choice for an All-Around vehicle. No range limits. Operates on gasoline, but has hybrid assist so it gets 40 miles to the gallon. Not super powerful, but lots of luxury and all the convenience features. Sits a little higher than a traditional sedan so it I won't have to climb out of it and fall into it.

 

[chowderman]

went looking for the EV range of the Venza . . . found: no range given, 0.9 KW-hr battery . . .
seriously?
it'll take decades to pay for the 'hybrid' bit . . .
reminds me of the SmartCar . . . little tiny overgrown roller skate - one would think it'd get mpg in the zillions.
not even close. all hat, no cattle.....

"I'm still not really convinced on buying an EV."
totally down with that.... we're retired, super minimal day-to-day driving needs.
no "commute" to work / office / clients . . .
but I'm not going down the path of four-five-six automobiles "one for each purpose"
DW is smitten with the RV idea - well, she's not a "camper" and I'm not gonna' shell out biggie bucks for an RV + more biggie bucks for something to pull it, , , , for 2-3 weekends a year.... mega-hassle, micro-returns...

operating a pure EV today, one does not plan one's vacation / road trip. one plans the excursion based on 'where can I charge?'
now . . . that will improve/become less of a problem; but not today or next week.

I've shelved the entire thing until the solid state battery thing becomes real, and not vaporware....
a 900 mile range - only thing you need: ensure you can charge at the hotel/motel....

 

[Melensdad]

went looking for the EV range of the Venza . . . found: no range given, 0.9 KW-hr battery . . .
seriously?

The VENZA is NOT an EV. The Venza is a traditional gas/electric hybrid. Does not require you to plug it into anything. The gas engine recharges the battery, the battery gives the small engine extra boost under acceleration and can actually take over in parking lot type situations, but it's just like any other hybrid. NOT an electric vehicle.

 

[chowderman]

true - but multiple hybrids - or perhaps more accurately PHEV - offer an "EV range" - which yes is typically super pathetic . . .
a hybrid with 100 mile EV range would be a 'pure EV' vehicle for us in "daily use" - but would then function as a normal car when we opted to go longer distances.
having an ICE for long stuff and an inadequate PHEV for short stuff is just , , , uhm , , , crazy...? is that the right word?

like, you know, a solution that is not a solution? . . .

 

[Melensdad]

true - but multiple hybrids - or perhaps more accurately PHEV - offer an "EV range" - which yes is typically super pathetic . . .
a hybrid with 100 mile EV range would be a 'pure EV' vehicle for us in "daily use" - but would then function as a normal car when we opted to go longer distances.
having an ICE for long stuff and an inadequate PHEV for short stuff is just , , , uhm , , , crazy...? is that the right word?

like, you know, a solution that is not a solution? . . .

There are basically 4 different classes of cars.

• Internal combustion engine.
• Hybrid, which is an ICE + has some level of electric boost
• PHEV, or Plug-in Hybrid, which typically offer between 25 and 50 miles of pure electric driving
• Electric Vehicle, which are 100% battery powered.

PHEV actually would work as a 100% battery vehicle for my city dwelling daughter, probably for my suburban dwelling brother, but still provide the range to take a road trip by switching to the ICE when the need to venture out to the highways and byways outside of the cities is required.

Just as part of my research into these things I recently looked at the PRIUS PRIME which is a plug in hybrid/PHEV, and has a 51 mile range on battery and then switches to ICE. For all the lovely Mrs_Bobs normal driving that 50 mile range would be sufficient. The problem is the Prius is just a small car and not really desirable for our wants. The RAV 4 PRIME is similar, but offers closer to 40 mile battery range. That too could satisfy most of her driving on battery alone. And that is actually pretty amazing considering we live 6 miles outside of the nearest small town beyond the edge of the suburban sprawl. But mapping daily driving routes shows that the 51 mile round trip range on the Prius Prime would require a tank of gas to be refilled about 1 time every 4 to 6 weeks! To put that into presecpective, during fencing season I refill my Honda Ridgeline, which gets 23+ mpg, about 2 times a week. Now I am not looking at the PRIUS PRIME as a car for me, for a lot of reasons, but it is a viable city/suburban car that can operate on pure EV battery mode for probably a lot more people than you'd initially think.

 

[Melensdad]

The solution to the question that nobody asked is the "solar roof" on an electric vehicle. Those generate between 1200 and 1500 miles of useable charge per year. Under optimal conditions. So if you park outside, in the sunshine, all day, every day, you can get 'free' regeneration at the rate of about 3 to 4 miles PER DAY of charging.

But if you park inside a garage, basically you wasted a hell of a lot of money on that unused solar array. \

Something tells me that these solar roofs are a vehicle option that is just a total waste of money.

 

[tiredretired]

Sorry Mel but there is no single answer to your quandary because everyone's needs and requirements are different. From a text book perspective we are a perfect candidate for an EV. We drive 10K a year evenly split between both vehicles. Lots of local driving and the occasional "long trip" to the Maine seacoast for our 3-4 day sabbaticals. We would use the Jeep Cherokee for that as it gets 33 mpg on a trip and my personality being as such I would be very succeptable to EV range anxiety to the point it would ruin the trip.

In the end I ordered a Ford Maverick as I wanted a truck of some sort that averages 30mpg highway, 25 around town and as Monty Python used to say I am not cheap, I am cheapish. LOL. So I select the lowest cost pickup for sale in North America. Well equipped with AWD, FX/4 package and Luxury package, Apple CarPlay, LED headlights, locking rear diff for those logging roads for under 30K (barely). Given our mileage figures and purchase cost I will never live long enough to make those added EV costs make money and work for me.

Moral of the story, each their own when it comes to these vehicles. If range anxiety is not an issue for you and you like the concept of an EV and willing to pay a premium for them then these cars are for you. Another factor is electricity costs. We pay $0.22 per KwH which is rather on the high end and cuts into the payback timeline. A 225 KwH battery from empty would cost me 50 bucks to fill to drive 300 miles costing $0.06 per mile. My Maverick currently costs me 70 bucks to fill from empty using 87 octane to drive 400 miles costing me $0.057 per mile. Hopefully your rates are cheaper to close that gap.

I am one of those people who still thinks buying a new vehicle is fun despite some of the hassles and such. I love it. Good luck. I am sure you will make the right decision at the end of the day.

 

[Melensdad]

Sorry Mel but there is no single answer to your quandary. . .

I totally agree with you!!!

I want value and luxury. My wife wants lots convenience features and ease of use. We both want lots of room and also economy of operation. Somehow that is not all going to happen in 1 vehicle.

 

[PGBC]

The answer to your original question is likely due to tesla performing very poorly in reliability.
If I were EV shopping, tesla would be my last choice.
Unreliability, coupled with a lack of repair shops, is a bad combination.
Tesla has a history of over promising, and underperforming.

 

[Melensdad]

The answer to your original question is likely due to tesla performing very poorly in reliability.
If I were EV shopping, tesla would be my last choice.
Unreliability, coupled with a lack of repair shops, is a bad combination.
Tesla has a history of over promising, and underperforming.

Well I've looked long and hard at the economics of electric vehicles that would potentially suit our needs.

In every case the EV is smaller than a comparable gas/hybrid vehicle we are considering.
In every case the EV has very similar technology to the gas/hybrid vehicle we are considering.
In every case the EV has a substantial cost bump over the gas/hybrid vehicle we are considering.

I am trying to do as close to "apples to apples" comparisons but that is fairly difficult. That said, every EV seems to cost approximately $10,000 more than the comparable gas/hybrid vehicles we are looking at. Assuming I spend about $2000 on year on fuel, the savings to convert to an EV is roughly 50%, even if we presume 60%, it takes a very long time to hit the 'break even' point for me to buy an electric vehicle.

Bear in mind that due to my income, I do not qualify for the $7500 tax incentives so other people may have much different math do to that tax incentive.

 

[chowderman]

oh dear . . . I have total complete records on the C300 - V6 naturally aspirated - AWD
and it'll go from 50 to 130 just passing a road hog semi . . .

9 years, 6 months - mixed everything driving - grocery store to PA-Texas . . . road trip!!
42,833 miles
$5,143 in gasoline - 93 octane in summer, 89 octane in cooler months
(yeah, the engine in 'summer heat' . . . the pre-ignition is not pretty . . .)

that's $0.12007 per mile fuel costs - and a C300 is not an econobox - it is a relatively heavy car - very comfy ride.

as you see, a financial analysis for "how much it cost me to drive a year?" is pretty dismal - given the current costs of {all things related.}
add in a once a year oil filter and mega-bucks synthetic oil change . . . = not much change in $/mile.

PA recently raised the state per gal fuel tax - PA was (briefly) the highest in the country - but other states, not to be outdone by PA.... raised their per gal tax as well.
for those 9.5 years, using the _current_ tax rate . . . $1,172 = $123/yr . . . so states charging license fees of $200 in lieu of fuel taxes . . .
don't decide - because the scenario is in constant flux and any 'today' assumption will be shot in the azz by tomorrow.

of course, if the radical have their way, and succeed in driving gasoline to $300/gal - well, electrics may be looking better.

now,,,,, if the NIMBYs would consider n-plants (fusion, anyone? Bueller, fusion? , , Bueller?) electric could resolve quite a few billion commuter issues.
but in reality ICE power is simply never going to be completely replaced.

 

[Melensdad]

No clue how you drive for 9.5 years and only have 42,833 miles on your vehicle. My 2022 Honda Ridgeline already pass 26,000 miles. The Audi has in excess of 144,000 miles on the odometer and the VW in excess of 160K, plus my wife's convertible is pushing 40k miles. We drive a lot in this household, 2 drivers 4 cars . . . and motorcycles.

 

[chowderman]

No clue how you drive for 9.5 years and only have 42,833 miles on your vehicle. My 2022 Honda Ridgeline already pass 26,000 miles. The Audi has in excess of 144,000 miles on the odometer and the VW in excess of 160K, plus my wife's convertible is pushing 40k miles. We drive a lot in this household, 2 drivers 4 cars . . . and motorcycles.

get ye' retired . . . < 5k/yr is no problem . . .

drove an Audi 100Q 300k plus. great car, until the electricals started failing

 

[Melensdad]

get ye' retired . . . < 5k/yr is no problem . . .

I retired at 2 weeks after my 47th birthday. I'm 62 and 11/12ths now. Busier than ever.

Volunteer coaching at Purdue University in Lafayette, IN. Guest coaching at Bradley University, Peoria, IL. Daughter #1 in Chicago. Daughter #2 at Notre Dame. Me, farmland 6 miles outside of the nearest small town. Gallon of milk is a 30+ minute round trip.

 

[PGBC]

Last year, 2022, between all of my vehicles and street bikes added together, I drove a whopping 11,062 kms.

It will be less than that this year I believe.

 

[PGBC]