Idaho and FS regs concerning snow-cats

[1boringguy]

So as not to digress too far on the GSA Idaho Tucker thread I thought it might be better to continue this here and also easier to find later.
I claim no expertise here just sharing thoughts and/or ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1boringguy
Blackfoot Tucker,

Wasn't sure how far I would or should jump into this whole snocat thing because we don't have a cabin, it's just for backcountry fun for us, but liking it so far. Have run into a little resistance from snowmobilers/clubs which seemed odd to me, I just figured we're all out here enjoying the same snow right? But apparently not. After checking into the Idaho state regulations and federal FS wordage I'm at least willing to jump in a little deeper.

If it takes me a couple years to find what I want that's ok, the Skidozer gets us around. But as the situation arises I'll take you up on the offer. I've definitely gained an appreciation of your knowledge and insights since joining these forums.

Thanks,
1bg


And from Pontoon Princess;

“from my research of Idaho and over the snow vehicle rules, snow mobiles require the standard sticker and that is good throughout the state and non snow mobiles are considered OHV and the requires a $11.00 sticker, also good throughout the great state of idaho, stay off of groomed snow mobile trails and use the areas designated for OHV and or over the snow vehicles “



Before I got my cat I called DMV to inquire as to what I would need regarding title and license since it was coming from out of state and I hadn’t owned one before. I was told that after several people looking it up, including the head of the department, that Idaho wouldn’t issue a title but would be happy to put a copy of another states title on file, and it would need/get a snowmobile sticker. When I showed up there with paperwork and photos in hand, everyone went through this same process and came to the same conclusion. I got a snowmobile sticker.

I haven’t talked to anyone else yet from DMV, (I was at the county office) or a member of the Idaho parks and recreation board. However I was referred to this information from one of the snowmobile clubs as evidence that someone messed up because “snowmobiles” are designated as under 2,000 lbs.

Some relevant parts of Title 67 Chapter 71 here;
67-7101. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(1) "All-terrain vehicle" or "ATV" means any recreational motor vehicle designed for or capable of traveling off developed roadways and highways
with three (3) or more tires and fifty-five (55) inches or less in width, with
a wheelbase of sixty-one (61) inches or less, and with handlebar steering and
a seat designed to be straddled by the operator.

(10) "Off-highway vehicle" means an all-terrain vehicle, motorbike,
specialty off-highway vehicle or utility type vehicle as defined in this
section.

(15) "Snowmobile" means any self-propelled vehicle under two thousand
(2,000) pounds unladened gross weight, designed primarily for travel on snow
or ice or over natural terrain, which may be steered by tracks, skis, or runners.

(16) "Specialty off-highway vehicle" means any vehicle manufactured,
designed or constructed exclusively for off-highway operation that does not
fit the definition of an all-terrain vehicle, utility type vehicle or motorbike as defined in this section. The vehicle classification provided for in
this subsection shall become effective on January 1, 2010.

(17) "Utility type vehicle" or "UTV" means any recreational motor vehicle other than an ATV, motorbike or snowmobile as defined in this section,
designed for and capable of travel over designated roads, traveling on four
(4) or more tires, maximum width less than eighty (80) inches, and having a
wheelbase of one hundred ten (110) inches or less. A utility type vehicle
must have a minimum width of fifty (50) inches, a minimum weight of at least
nine hundred (900) pounds or a wheelbase of over sixty-one (61) inches.
Utility type vehicle does not include golf carts, vehicles specially designed to carry a disabled person, implements of husbandry as defined in
section 49-110(2), Idaho Code, or vehicles otherwise registered under title
49, Idaho Code. A "utility type vehicle" or "UTV" also means a recreational
off-highway vehicle or ROV.

67-7109. PROHIBITION AGAINST HIGHWAY OPERATION -- EXCEPTIONS. No person shall operate a snowmobile upon any highway or public roadway in this
state, with the following exceptions:

(3) The prohibition against operating snowmobiles upon highways and
public roadways shall not apply to any highway or public roadway drifted or
covered with snow to an extent that travel on it by other motor vehicles is
impractical or impossible.

(4) Snowmobiles may be operated on that portion of a highway or public
roadway right-of-way that is not maintained or utilized for the operation of
conventional motor vehicles.

(5) Local authorities may, by ordinance, specifically designate public
roadways upon which snowmobiles may be operated.

AND HERE”S THE KICKER I GUESS DEPENDING ON HOW IT’S INERPRETED.

67-7112. GROOMED SNOWMOBILE TRAILS. Counties shall have the option to
allow all-terrain vehicles and snowmobiles over one thousand (1,000) pounds
unladen gross weight, if numbered as a snowmobile, to use snowmobile trails
in the county. No other vehicles shall operate on groomed snowmobile trails
unless specifically allowed by the county. Any all-terrain vehicle and
snowmobile over one thousand (1,000) pounds unladen gross weight operating
on groomed snowmobile trails during the winter snowmobiling season when the
trails are groomed shall be numbered as a snowmobile under the provisions of
section 67-7103, Idaho Code. Violation of the provisions of this section
shall be an infraction.


A couple thoughts at this point. The state provides that the counties can allow ATV and snowmobiles over 1,000 lbs on groomed trails at their discretion. ATVs are specifically defined as having wheels. UTVs, Jeeps, ect with tracks are not defined as allowed and are typically over 2,000 lbs. And from the above definitions I would say that a snow-cat would be classified as a “specialty off-highway vehicle”.

So if the state allows counties the latitude to allow ATVs with tires and snowmobiles over 1,000 lbs on groomed trails but they must have a snowmobile sticker for that, and the state issues snowmobile stickers for snow-cats then one might conclude that the state claims jurisdiction for the states groomed trails and that by issuing snowmobile stickers to snow-cats intends that they are acceptable on groomed trails which said sticker helped pay for. No?


I called Boise NF headquarters to inquire about federal policy concerning snow-cats on federal land. I was transferred to an ‘engineer’, (I assume a land use engineer perhaps?) but he seemed like he knew, but said it wasn’t a common question so give him a minute to review the regulations and he would call me back. Fifteen minutes later he did and said the federal government only makes the classification of ‘over the snow vehicle’ so all types fall under that one classification and are free to utilize any road or open area on federal land that is not specifically closed to OSV operation. Maps can be found online. The use maps may change as the battle of 36 CFR 212 subpart C plays out but seems there is no indication that the single classification will.
Federal regulation has jurisdiction on federal land no?

Thoughts?

 

[Pontoon Princess]

I should have clarified my information, it came from the USFS and it only applied to USFS lands in Idaho, and Utah, there is a bill in the idaho state senate that would bring state regs on snow mobiles and over the snow vehicles in alignment with USFS regs, rules, usage and definitions.

I do know that state of Utah regs are line up with USFS rules, while Idaho, is not so compatible with USFS regs and rules.

 

[Melensdad]

Just curious but is it possible, in those states, to list your snowcats as an agricultural vehicle and, therefore follow ag tractor rules?

I did that in Indiana. It let me drive on the roadways as long as I had a SMV triangle on the rear and my lights on; it also let me take it on all sorts of easements, etc.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

Just curious but is it possible, in those states, to list your snowcats as an agricultural vehicle and, therefore follow ag tractor rules?

I did that in Indiana. It let me drive on the roadways as long as I had a SMV triangle on the rear and my lights on; it also let me take it on all sorts of easements, etc.

LOL, tucker sells an ag tucker terra track machine, so guess that qualifies, still the issue is how the govmint in Ideeho interprets their own regs and laws

fyi, out west vast majority of land is owned by govmint of one form or another,
not too many private land owners

the USFS is the most consistent in their regs.

please ask first and try your best to leave a good impression, all goes a long way to opening up land for snow cats

and then all it takes, one rogue snow catter, and govmint clamps down, the rogue catter is a problem that continues to slow progress in getting access to state lands , even some federal land....

 

[1boringguy]

Pontoon Princess,

Agree with you about progress, and I'm not trying to be 'The Rogue Catter', although it does kind of have a ring to it ?. Just trying to have factual information rather than biased opinion and move forward from there.

In your search did you find anything from USFS prohibiting snowcats on groomed trails? Because the conversation I had with the gentleman at the Boise National Forest Headquarters indicated that there was no restriction of that on federal land.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

the USFS, stated that the state stickers for snow mobiles help pay for grooming the trails while the OHV sticker money does not go to grooming, thus, USFS strongly to stay off groomed trail unless you are in a wildness area with a groom trail, which is the only way a motorized anything can be in a restricted wildness area, they also cited the obvious, the speed difference of snow cat vs snow mobile is just an accident waiting to happen, so, they strongly suggested to stay off groomed trails other than in restricted wildness areas, of which I think there is only 2 such areas in ideeho...BLM land follows USFS access regs,

now it is a whole different story when it comes to state lands....

 

[GMoose]

I live in Pocatello Idaho, when I registered my cat I was required to have it weighed and show that it was over 2000 lb. Since it is over 2000 lb I was not required to title it, if it had weighed less than 2000 lbs they would have required me to title it, the local office contacted the state office in Boise for this. I was then only required to purchase a snow mobile sticker for it. My understanding is that I can drive on groomed trails, however the sheriff in a county can restict this. There are some areas where I am not allowed to go, but neither are snowmobiles, which are designated wildlife winter rangers and areas restricted from motorized vehicle use from November 15th through May 15, or other dates as posted.. These can be found on winter use/recreation maps. I went to the local blm office and they knew of no restrictions other than what I mentioned above. They also had a USFS representative there with the same reply. I did hear that there is a push by the local snow mobile club to get them banned from the groomed trails,
that are made by much larger cats than mine, kind of ironic. I try to stay out of there way, and most seem excited to see me, maybe because of its vintage. My goal is to try and stay on their good side and be friendly and helpful when possible. There is basically just me around here, so I can't fight them, when there are many of them. It sounds like there may be more restrictions in the McCall area, vintage bikes may be able to talk to that.

 

[GMoose]

One additional thing, I did have to have it registered by its serial number, which is 37. Registration looks kind of funny with just a lonely 37 on it. I do also have liability insurance on it just in case there is an accident.

 

[1boringguy]

Gmoose,
Thanks for input, again in your case sounds like the state determination was the same as mine, no title and you had to have a snowmobile sticker. Also I hadn't really thought about liability insurance, I'll have to check with my insurance company about that. Thanks

Pontoon Princess,
I've heard the speed difference argument/concern put forth by the snowmobilers as well. And I tried to apply some logical validity to this. I personally would like to see bicycles band from using the highway system as well. Why? Two reasons really.
Firstly, when I have a oversize/overweight piece of equipment on a truck that's 12 feet wide and weights twice what the average highway truck does, and I come over a hill on a two lane road with oncoming traffic and a bicycle in my lane, one of us is going to end up in the ditch or someone is going to die. Even with the average truck, even with a pickup and trailer, even with a car, it can be unsafe. If you have ever driven hwy 1 along the coast in the summer you know .......... ?So ban the bikes right? Well, so then should it be illegal to walk along a road, ride a horse along a road, ect. ? So groomed trails, should they be restricted to a minimum speed limit of 20 mph? Kids and adults who don't ride that fast are restricted? What about snowshoes, crosscountry skis? We make this type of scenario work in our society in a far greater scale and where the physics are much tougher than on groomed trails.
Secondly, arrogance. So many cyclists don't think traffic laws apply to them, don't try to keep to the right as much as possible, but just figure the world has to watch out for them. This as an argument from snowmobilers comes across as the same to me. That "I" shouldn't have to be responsible for safe operation out there.

I'm all for flying under the radar and being responsible out there, but it can also be difficult to access the backcountry in the winter without some overlap because the groomed trail systems start and end at the limited winter access points for the same reason. That they are limited in each area.

 

[olympicorange]

……….. thanks for the descriptive info , very interesting. im amazed at the size mass of the country side out west....huge land areas, and wide open by the looks of many pics …. and reading about what you guyz are going thru to operate your snocats…. the''grey'' area of the by-laws, which one persons interpretation , can open the access, or close it , just that fast. but what I'm aluding to is ; over here in the northeast , most or all snowmobile trails are closed to sno cats.... primarily for the most part...because of the size /width of the cats. n.h. trails /bureau limits any machine to 60'' ...I believe, end of story. really the only way you can use a Cat on the trails system is to be grooming.... no recreational useage at all ( for the most part). our states here are mostly wooded/forest. so the snowmobile trails are very narrow. now up north, quite a ways away, are the paper companies land, trails are much wider. i'm not sure about their regulations up there. so operating a sno cat around here is very tight, that was my comparison, if you guyz are having a tought time with all that big open country , are issues is tight quarters here....keep the info coming ...thanks...

 

[1boringguy]

Olympicorange,

You’re right, we are very lucky for our open public lands out west. In Idaho it’s about 62%. Compared to back east we can find many snowcatting opportunities even if groomed trails were prohibited.

There certainly are many different interests tugging at the use regulations for that land however, in government meetings, in court, in public hearings, in the media, ect. Just a simple example here; https://winterwildlands.org/to-osvum-or-not-to-osvum-getting-on-track-with-the-boise-payette-and-bridger-teton-national-forests/

One would think that similar interest groups would want to band together in the battle for use planning, but what do I know. Snowcatters are such a small minority that perhaps as Princess says, out of sight out of mind is a best approach. I don’t know. I do know that a good friend of mine has a lodge where I like to visit him. A maintained county dirt road serves as access to it, and both access out from it to the backcountry have been turned into groomed trails. I know of people who would like to access their cabin with a snowcat, but the access has been turned into a groomed trail so snowmobile interest tried to prohibit snowcat access.

Anyway I’ll keep digging a little bit more into all this, but as I said earlier and Princess generally confirmed about the USFS/BLM policy, we certainly have enough opportunity for snowcatting that I wouldn’t walk away just yet. Idaho is said to have the largest amount of soakable hot springs of any state, there has to be a few more that I haven’t found yet, that we can snowcat into.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

this is the current USFS map of the Sawtooth National Forest

the legend shows shaded areas usage and closures, I think it is very clear where a over the snow vehicle can be operated and when. The
District Ranger, stated that over the snow vehicle is not limited to just snow mobile, it covers all "over the snow vehicles" - i.e. sno-cats. And because a snow -cat weights over 2000 lbs, it is required to have a OHV sticker. And you are good to go in the Sawtooths...

boring guy, see your point, bicycles and cars on narrow roads to not mix well on paved roads, at least, there is some sense of order, like, posted speed signs, out on the groom trails for snow mobiles, I have yet to see any posted speed signs.

personally I do not see any good reason to keep a snow-cat from using the groomed trail. Have you ever seen a trail that has not been groom after a very long weekend of use, snow mobiles really tear up the trail, but it does limit how fast you want to destroy your body and machine.

the real problem is, when rules and regs are drafted/written, snow mobiles manufactures/clubs have a seat at the table, and where is the snow cat manufactures/private snow cat owner? and utility companies for the most part are exempt, and their lawyers do not represent the privately owned snow cat.

and until we, the private snow cat owner, have a seat at the table, we need to operate and represent our community by example, please.

 

[olympicorange]

….……… all good points to ponder, and great map; p/p... so ...is it a safety issue , or trail condition issue...with your snowmobile clubs out there ...that theyre basing their opinions on... over here its mostly safety, navigating our trails safely... thx guyz….

 

[Pontoon Princess]

….……… all good points to ponder, and great map; p/p... so ...is it a safety issue , or trail condition issue...with your snowmobile clubs out there ...that theyre basing their opinions on... over here its mostly safety, navigating our trails safely... thx guyz….

hmmm, when we come across snow mobiles in the wild, they always seem happy to see us and everyone is good with us/snow cat in the area.

the perceived conflicts may come from our overloads at the state/fed,

the sticker fees do go to grooming and maintenance of trails, thus giving them the feeling and correctly, if you pay for it, it is only yours, to use

the speed differences are real and create issues of safety

it would be nice to get a seat at the table.

 

[Mother Tucker]

SIGH,,,.So much bureaucracy and no one really knows the answer. Same up here, they( the powers that be) do not have a category or clear understanding of a Sno-Cat?????. Gotta go work on our Cat now, see you's in McCall? Good day,Eh

 

[1boringguy]

Olympicoranage,

Not sure that I really know. I have little experience on a snowmobile, just ride once or twice a year with friends, and then just rent a machine. Many of the groomed trails I've been on are roads that in dry conditions, vehicles moving in opposing directions do easily pass each other. Not generally to hard for snowmobiles or cats to move far enough right to clear the main part of the trail. To me the safety issue seems way over played. I mean what's really being advocated here? That groomed trails are the snow autobahn that should accommodate 60-80+ mph snowmobile traffic and if that rider comes upon anything they can't get stopped for be that, your kids, your grand parents, wildlife, a snowcat, then that's a fault of the other? IDK, losing me on that one.

As for fees, Idaho is selling, at least some of us snowcats, a snowmobile sticker. At that point we've paid as much as any other single machine for trail grooming/maintenance. If USFS would like me to also have an $11.00 OHV sticker then I'll gladly get that as well. We build things as our society and we try to fund those things in reasonable ways but not always able to be entirely equitable. Thinking back to bicycles and roads for example, if bicycles got to ride on the amount of road they paid for they would have a darn short ride.

I really don't know much about snow condition when it comes to grooming but I recall when I was younger and skiing 60 days a year, hearing one of the old snowcat driver talking about sugar snow in the spring and how at that point you were just done grooming because if you put a cat on it it just falls apart. But wouldn't 50 snowmobile s have the same result at that point?

I'm thinking I should join the snowmobiler club up near my buddies place. See if I can follow along with the groomer a night and we can see the impacts. Meet the riders and talk with them, be part of fundraising, ect. It's harder to hate on someone you know right? And my aim is certainly not to cause him, his business, or anyone else grief.

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

1BG,

It's amazing to me how closely your viewpoints on these subjects mirror my own, and you've done a great job explaining them!!! Thank You!!!

Here is Park City, UT anything bicycle related is treated as a political third rail, and the ridiculous amount of money spent on trails for mountain bikes when they pay no taxes, is a major pet peeve!

 

[1boringguy]

Thanks Blackfoot,

And yeah, sometimes I have to remind myself it's useful for me to zoom out a little bit.

Probably people who were struggling to survive the the great depression didn't see the projects of the CCC as any great value to them (my grandfather included). And yet I would say at this point that much of that work is part of our national treasure.
https://maps.roadtrippers.com/trips/17376850

The value of recreational dollars is a major factor these days. Years ago I had one of the sport fishing captains in Costa Rica school me on that. Some idea from here;
http://www.trcp.org/2013/08/27/bad-comparisons-economic-value-of-recreational-vs-commercial-fishing/

Anyway, I'm certain there are things I'm much less excited about my government money paying for than outdoor recreation infrastructure. But then I'm in Construction, so building anything seems better to me than handing out fish for a day. Anyway as PP said, one has to sit at the table if one wants to influence the outcome.

 

[olympicorange]

….…….. 1BG, well said, as BFT mentioned, and that was my comparison....the wide open country out there....VAST.... our fight here is the narrow trails... what really ''ramped'' this up a few years ago, was an accident.... a young guy , came around a corner …. head on into the local groomer... into the snow blade,... and unfortunately ...was ejected into the cab of the groomer. the snowmobiler was killed. …. and im sure it had quite an effect on the operators of the groomer. so that's when N.H. trails bureau really laid out strict restrictions. width restrictions was a big one, mandatory groomer operation /training '' certification '' classes , etc... so,...as said before.... the sno-cats brunt the ''penalty''... I've always said...'' new & inexperienced '' snowmobile operators should go thru a training course.... more of a ''common sense '' class. because, as Einstein once said...''common sense is anything but common''..... mainly due to the ...''power to weight ''ratio..... let's spread the wealth...… thx ...

 

[Idaho Living]

My machine is four feet wide and 4700 pounds. The decision was it is a specialty over the snow vehicle, like everyone has said requiring a snowmobile sticker.

 

[Pontoon Princess]

yes it needs a snow mobile sticker and run either on private property or in the area designated for over snow vehicles by the USFS, here is the map for the Ketchum/sawtooth areas, the D areas In the bluish gray is where you want to be, the Ketchum ranger station has this map at the front counter

 

[Travler]

Idaho Living , I don’t know where you live , just a word to the wise if you are any where around the Mcll area it’s not the width it’s the weight , any thing over 1600 lbs could get expensive, the snowmobilers are well proteced

 

[Loneoutrider]

I live in southwest Montana and have to travel by snowcat or snowmobile into Idaho to get highway access in the winter.
Montana allowed me to title both my Thiokol 4T8 and my Snow Trac ST4B as snowmobiles. This allowed my insurance company to issue liability policies for both machines. I have had no issues getting Idaho “Out of State” snowmobiles stickers for the last five seasons.
The Idaho trails that I utilize are sometimes groomed. The county sheriff drives by my cats periodically, but has offered no objections.

 

[Idaho Living]

I won’t be going anywhere with this thing. I plow my community on private roads. I think my spine is compressed as a result of bouncing around in it. I was just agreeing on the definition that applied to it. Joyrides in a J5 are out of the question.

 

[Idaho Living]

I live just off the Macon Flats desert road at Magic Reservoir, that road has been groomed recently. I will not leave my little world here on our private roads.

 

[1boringguy]

Snowmobile trail ready. That's what I'm talking about

 

[Travler]

Now that’s what the Capt , will be doing in a couple of years , I am thinking if Steve and Jim get together you shop is un safe as for as what could come out of it