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HYBRID versus ICE vehicles compared for performance/fuel economy --PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS

Melensdad

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
I have 2 new vehicles. Both bought with fuel economy and comfort in mind.

Lately I've been driving the lovely Mrs_Bob's new Toyota Venza.

They Venza is a model year 2023, purchased a few months ago. Rated at something like 39mpg. I've been driving it because it's been so damn cold out that she often arrives home and I depart within an hour of her arrival so the car has not yet had time to FREEZE in my garage.
Most of my driving is rural highway. Literally 90% of my driving is rural highway or interstate. Purdue's fencing club is a couple miles off a rural highway that runs a couple miles from my home. Fencing club is 1 block off that same rural highway in the opposite direction.

The WEAK SPOT for HYBRID vehicles is highway mileage. Basically because of the highway speeds, the hybrid motors virtually sit idle and the ICE engine under the hood is what powers the Venza when I drive. Round trip to Purdue in the Venza is churning out roughly 30mpg. Round trip to Notre Dame yields similar results.

Around the area, in her normal driving loop, the lovely Mrs_Bob was averaging slightly over 37mpg . . . and then I started driving it. The "average" is now down to 31.1mpg showing on the dashboard. I had been watching the MPG drop during the last few trips I've made.

On Sunday of this week I drove to Purdue in my 2022 Honda Ridgeline. The Ridgeline is probably 18" longer than the Venza. The Ridgeline is also taller and wider than the Venza by very noticeable margins. I'm guessing it is heavier. Ridgeline is a traditional ICE powered medium size pick up truck. 6 cylinder gas engine. My combined city/highway average MPG is roughly 23.5mpg. I have over 30,000 miles on the Ridgeline.

FUEL ECONOMY:
  • Venza gets me about 30mpg with a heavy bias to highway driving
  • Ridgeline gets me about 23.5mpg in very similar highway driving
Pretty easy to understand that the bigger Ridgeline with bigger engine would get worse fuel economy, but the poor fuel economy in the Venza is very surprising. And for someone (like the lovely Mrs_Bob) who does not drive almost all highway miles, the Venza should yield much better fuel economy. In fact we have close friends who have a 2021 Venza, same engine/drivetrain as is in ours. They rave about the fuel economy, but drive mostly in suburban areas.

PERFORMANCE: (seat of the pants, not actually measured, just my driving observations)
  • Venza seems faster to speed from a stop.
  • Ridgeline is clearly sluggish compared to the Venza
I think the electric motor in the Venza provides a lot of initial torque before the gas engine kicks in and that proves a nice boost. Nobody is going to confuse the Ridgeline with a race truck.


Cost & Benefit SUMMARY: (my personal view)

In the case of the Venza, there is only 1 drivetrain option, literally all Venzas are sold with the same Hybrid/ICE system. So there is no 'upcharge' to get the Venza. As I compared other modest size 2 row SUVs at the time, I looked closely at several spec's. I wanted an interior larger than my Audi A6, I wanted a nice level of luxury and technology, I wanted a decent value for my $. Lots of vehicles fit the description, the Venza with all the whistles and bells was in stock and that probably sealed the deal.

But given how I drive I might not opt for a HYBRID if it comes at an added cost.

Clearly the HYBRID drivetrain is a benefit for my wife, I literally destroyed her long term fuel economy "average" by taking a few trips to Notre Dame and a few to Purdue.

Now I am considering, possibly in late 2024, of trading the Ridgeline in for an SUV that has 3 rows of seats. Something like a Grand Highlander from Toyota, or the new incoming Hyundai Santa Fe. I already get 23.5mpg from the Ridgeline. I would not get a vehicle that gets worse MPG. But knowing how I drive, I would not pay a big premium for a HYBRID.

Your uses will determine your fuel economy. These are just my observations and experiences. But if you are looking for really high fuel economy, a HYBRID will deliver that UNDER CERTAIN TYPES OF DRIVING. It would pay for you to really consider your driving before plunking down your hard earned cash. I'm happy with the Venza. I'm happy with the fuel economy. But I also have had my eyes opened on how the HYBRIDs churn out good MPG and when they are just "average" in the economy standpoint.
 
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Now hybrid is something that I can buy into. The economy in town and the reliability of a gasoline engine for long distance driving.
 
NorthernRedneck said:
Now hybrid is something that I can buy into. The economy in town and the reliability of a gasoline engine for long distance driving.
Click to expand...

That is exactly why we chose it.
And Hybrids appear to deliver on that type of driving.

One last time I want to stress MY PERSONAL DRIVING is very atypical. Average American driver puts on a bit more than 12,000 miles per year. I average closer to 17,000 miles per year. Didn't realize it until I really analyzed it, but I put on a very atypical % of highway miles versus city and suburban mileage too. But because of that atypical driving, it really showed me what the VENZA Hybrid did under the lovely Mrs_Bob's driving versus how it performs when I take it as the primary driver.
 
When we were looking at the Ford plugin hybrids the salesman actually told us if you drive more than 75 percent on the highway hybrids do nothing but cost more. If I remember correctly, that was actually in the Ford brochure. We had actually purchased a plug in hybrid for my wife that was never delivered because of The Wuhan flu. After waiting if I remember correctly 18 months I canceled the order. That was the same time of year. I hit the deer with my ice F-150 and was told parts were going to take an extreme amount of time to fix it. So I bought the lightning.
 
as you have experienced, hybrids and plug-in hybrids simply do not have enough electric range to justify their existence.
when I tracked our driving habits, a 100 mile warm/sunny day range is required in order for the technology to justify itself - providing electric motive power for local and ICE for long distances.

the battery range - especially for hybrids that 'charge themselves' is comically minuscule.
 
chowderman said:
as you have experienced, hybrids and plug-in hybrids simply do not have enough electric range to justify their existence.
Click to expand...

Actually that is NOT my experience.

First, a Plug In Hybrid (PHEV) is a totally different sort of beast. I don't own one. I looked at them. But they work differently than a traditional HYBRID. I have no comment on PHEVs in this thread as they are too different.

I own a traditional HYBRID vehicle. I own an ICE vehicle. Purchased 1 model year apart. Both purchased new. Both still essentially new and under warranty. Both are uni-body construction.

Seemed like it was reasonably fair to compare them.

A traditional HYBRID has essentially "no range" unless you consider backing out of your garage or doing a 3 pt turn in a parking lot to be driving range. The HYBRIDS are not designed to power the vehicle solely by electric motors. The HYBRID vehicles are designed to use electric motors to replace or supplement ICE engines at the very times when ICE engines are least efficient. And HYBRIDS seems to do that very well.

The HYBRID works very well to reduce fuel consumption under suburban driving conditions while also providing superior performance. I think I reasonably pointed that out when highlighting the fuel economy that my wife achieves when she drives the vehicle.

The HYBRID doesn't add much under highway conditions. But as my driving is very atypical of most drivers, the HYBRID actually works very well and for most drivers would be clearly the economical choice over an ICE vehicle.
 
mbsieg said:
When we were looking at the Ford plugin hybrids the salesman actually told us if you drive more than 75 percent on the highway hybrids do nothing but cost more. If I remember correctly, that was actually in the Ford brochure. We had actually purchased a plug in hybrid for my wife that was never delivered because of The Wuhan flu. After waiting if I remember correctly 18 months I canceled the order. That was the same time of year. I hit the deer with my ice F-150 and was told parts were going to take an extreme amount of time to fix it. So I bought the lightning.
Click to expand...
I honestly think that a PHEV would suit my wife very well. A PHEV would probably operate in EV mode for 3/4s of her typical daily use. She does a short drive on the interstate on Friday afternoon and again on Monday morning. But beyond those 2 regular planned trips, most of her driving is typical "suburban" type driving. Probably 30 - 40 miles per day that she drives.

I noticed the new PRIUS PRIME has over 40 miles of EV range. If it had a bigger back seat and AWD I would have probably bought that instead of the VENZA . . . FWIW, my fencing equipment barely fits in the VENZA
 
mbsieg said:
She definitely proves the hybrid works, it would definitely be interesting to see how the PHEV does for her situation.
Click to expand...
I would too. If there was a VENZA PHEV it would have been interested to look at, but I'd be concerned about the price upcharge.

Biggest problem with the PHEV class of vehicles is their price.

Most PHEVs seem to cost almost as much as a pure EV but the range is very limited, in EV mode. Literally a $7000+ price premium to get a PHEV (FWIW, Hyundai makes/made a Santa Fe in your choice of ICE, Hybrid and PHEV)

EPA claims that most people drive about 30 miles a day. So logically you'd want a PHEV that gives you at least that range. However, many of the PHEVs give closer to 20 miles of driving. Although the newer models seem to be getting better ranges. And the PRIUS PRIME is an outlier at 40+ miles of range.
 
Melensdad said:
I would too. If there was a VENZA PHEV it would have been interested to look at, but I'd be concerned about the price upcharge.

Biggest problem with the PHEV class of vehicles is their price.

Most PHEVs seem to cost almost as much as a pure EV but the range is very limited, in EV mode. Literally a $7000+ price premium to get a PHEV (FWIW, Hyundai makes/made a Santa Fe in your choice of ICE, Hybrid and PHEV)

EPA claims that most people drive about 30 miles a day. So logically you'd want a PHEV that gives you at least that range. However, many of the PHEVs give closer to 20 miles of driving. Although the newer models seem to be getting better ranges. And the PRIUS PRIME is an outlier at 40+ miles of range.
Click to expand...
Yes, we had purchased the escape PHEV. If I remember correctly it was right at $45,000. I think it would have worked well for my wife, with her limited driving about 20 mi a day. To school home school home school home. Seems like it's three trips for her everyday. But that's what you get when you are a taxi for your kids.
 
" . . . But as my driving is very atypical of most drivers . . ."
uhm,,, that's an unsupported assumption.

just like political polls - when you restrict your polling to groups biased in a known direction, you can get any results you want.
see: Trump
see: Biden

not everyone lives within 15 miles of their workplace.
studies 'proving' no one needs to drive more than 30 electric miles conveniently ignore the millions of non-urban dwellers.
not everyone takes the bus/subway to their job.
many of the dense urban/city dwellers leave their cars parked for days/weeks at a time.
not many 3rd-4th floor apartment dwellers have figured out how to plug in a L1 charger/heater.

as previously maintained: works for some (your wife) not for others (you)
 
chowderman said:
" . . . But as my driving is very atypical of most drivers . . ."
uhm,,, that's an unsupported assumption.
Click to expand...
No, actually it is not.

I not only drive more miles than most non-commercial drivers per year, I also drive a higher % of highway miles than most non-commercial drivers per year. My state is actually a higher than US average mile per year state.

Pushing close to 37,000 on the 2 year old truck's odometer, and that does not include the frequent trips to Purdue I make in the VW Jetta when the weather is a bit nicer. So safe to say I personally drive roughly 20,000 to 22,000 miles a year. Most of those in the truck. Toss on several more thousand in the Jetta. And maybe a few more driving the lovely Mrs_Bob's car.

You are free to check it all out.
Literally hundreds of results in a quick search back up my claims.
This will get you started:

smartfinancial.com

Average Miles Driven per Year by Americans (2022) | SmartFinancial

Americans drive an average of 12,785 per year based on data from the Federal Highway Administration. See how your state, age and sex measure against the national average.
smartfinancial.com smartfinancial.com
 
does not break out local vs. "long range driving"
does not "research" less than / more than x miles per usage

proves zip comma nadda - just more meaningless "averages"

on a more pertinent note, announced today,,, the national debt per taxpayer/filer,,,, $265K+
how's that work for "averages"?
 
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