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Engine block heaters

pixie

pixie

Well-known member
My Chrysler flathead 6 won't start at temps below 20F .

I'd like to add the most efficient heater as I'll need to power it with a portable generator.

I see that there are magnetic ( oil pan ) heaters, dipstick heaters, heaters that install in a freeze plug and in-line water heaters.

Does anyone have an opinion on which works the fastest ?

At the moment, I'm leaning towards using 2 magnetic heaters. One stuck on the oil pan and one stuck on the block.

Thanks
 
Hey Pixie,

It will be interesting to see what the experts have to say on this question. I use an in-line water heater for my Deere diesel and it works fantastic. One of my friends had a problem where the heater was burning itself up and he solved it by going to a lower amperage unit. It just doesn't get too cold by us, though. Our low temps may reach zero F for a day, but it's most common to be about 25-30F low and just cross above the freezing mark during the day. And this warm weather brings tons of snow!

Heating with a generator could be interesting. It seems like an oil pan heater could do the job if the heat transfers well through the metal block.

Let's see what the others have to say.
 
Hi Pixie. Having 3 old diesels here...well, let's just say I felt your pain. One has the coil-type block heater, probably only 250 watts. It's better than nothing but still need to use the glow plugs when it's down below 0' F. I installed tank-type coolant heaters on the other 2 engines. I recall they were in the 1000 to 1500 watt range on the 5.3 and 5.6 liter engines. These things work great and the engines start on the first crank down to the lowest temperature I've tested which is probably about -30' F. They get the engine toasty! I pulled the doghouse off the unimog last week and accidentally touched the top of the water pump...ouch! Sucker burned me! Also, your defroster and heat will work right away.

Here's a key consideration for powering an engine heater with a generator. My experience with the conventional block heater is that it pretty much has to stay on all night or at least a couple of hours to do it's job. That's because it relies on passive convection. That of course means your generator has to work that long. The tank type heaters don't have to work long at all to warm the engine. This is because they are in effect a heat pump that continually circulates warm coolant through the block. I did a test on the old unimog after I installed the tank heater, consider that this diesel would rarely start below 25' F without some ether or warmed batteries and a lot of cranking. I plugged in the heater and then tried to start it at 5 minute increments. At 0' F, I was able to start the engine after it was plugged in for 35 minutes. Not bad.

The other option of course is to get a fuel-fired coolant heater installed on your vehicle. These are a bit spendy, especially for the diesel-fired ones. I like your idea of using a portable generator. Good, cheap, reliable solution, plus you can use it for other stuff too.

Cheers - Paul
 
I too am in need of a new block heater. My engine starts to act up at about 10 degrees and it just gets harder to start below those temps. One thing I did was to change to Mobile One motor oil (Amsoil would have been better but none around). The Synthetic oils really help the engine to crank when the temps are really low. So far I am not sure what my new difficult starting temp is but I can tell you its in the negatives now. I do want a way I can Plug my cat in for a few hours when the temps drop down. Since I am on the road a too believe a generator is the best idea. This summer I will be installing some type of block heater and a big Honda generator in the bed or on the trailer. MTNTOPPER use to be a rep for a block heater company. Maybe a quick PM to him will provide the answers we need? MNTMOGS has some great info. Sounds like a tank type heater may be best for my type of use.
 
I'm curious to see what Mtntopper has to say! While we're on the subject, anybody have some advice on a heater for hydraulic fluid? That's a real problem on hydrostatic drive vehicles. Starting the engine is only half the battle in that case. Molasses doesn't like to flow! I've blown o-rings out of hydraulic filters on more than one occasion, each time creating an unregistered hazmat site. Also have you seen the price of hydraulic fluid lately? My wife calls it "liquid gold." I thought about slapping a magnetic oil pan heater on the bottom of the tank, but maybe there's a better option. Maybe boggie would know.

Good point about synthetic oils. No doubt worth the extra expense if you're operating in cold climates. I've used both Amsoil and Redline, they are a vast improvement over dino in the transmission/engine. I do know that you can buy synthetic hydraulic fluid as well. I'm afraid to ask how much it costs.
 
Snowcat Operations said:
I have seen pipe wrap for exposed water pipes that you plug into a standard plug. Maybe some of these would help?
Click to expand...

If you could get them around the tank I think they would help. If it's just around a hose then it's such a small volume that it wouldn't help much I think.

My father-in-law is from a mining and forestry district here in Montana and I asked him what they did to get there machines started in the cold. There were no snowcats, but the circumstances were similar in that they left their machines turned off for the night and a long distance from an electrical outlet. Here's some of the ways they would start the machines on a cold morning:

-Light a big fire on the ground. Let it burn down to coals, shovel coals under the engine compartment. Let warm - start.

-Let it run all night!

-This was the coolest method I thought. Install T-fittings with quick connects on the cooling lines of the machinery and your truck. Drive to your machinery in the morning, hook your cooling system to the machinery using quick connects. Transfuse your warm coolant into the machinery. Have a cup of coffee/cig. Start. When they were done for the day, often their trucks were too cold to start. Bummer when you're tired and hungry for supper. Well, the transfusion method works in reverse too, hook the warm machinery up to your cold truck. Have a beer. Start.

-Put an old multi-fuel lantern under the oil pan for the night. I think petromax still makes these. They'll burn anything from whale blubber to gasoline. Keeps it warm enough to start in the morning. Of course I'm talking about diesel machinery here, not sure I would put one of these under a gas engine with a leaky carb.

Also, he mentioned that at home he's armed his semi engine by sticking his wife's hair dryer in the air intake for a couple of minutes.
 
Thanks PB! They've got a coolant/hydraulic heat exchanger I see. Nice idea. I could just put it inline with the tank heater. I'll have to see how much $$.

Should've just asked one of you Canadian fellers in the first place, eh?:pat:
 
No problem, before life interferred with my hobbies, I had great plans for converting my diesel truck into a Straight Vegetable Oil machine. In order to do that I had to research how best to pre-heat oil.

I have two unused 12 VDC inline oil heaters for preheating vegetable oil. If you added an electric oil pump you might be able to use them for pre-heating your oil just by circulating the oil through these lines. Typically they would have been placed on a fuel line so I'm not sure if you want them on a hydraulic system unless you can isolate them from the pressure.

I'll mail them to anyone that is an established member and promised to send me a check for whatever the shipping costs.

If anyone is interested in these just let me know and I'll dig up info and specs on them. They've been sitting in my shed for 5+ years now and I just sold my diesel truck.

PB
 
pixie said:
My Chrysler flathead 6 won't start at temps below 20F .

I'd like to add the most efficient heater as I'll need to power it with a portable generator.

I see that there are magnetic ( oil pan ) heaters, dipstick heaters, heaters that install in a freeze plug and in-line water heaters.

Does anyone have an opinion on which works the fastest ?

At the moment, I'm leaning towards using 2 magnetic heaters. One stuck on the oil pan and one stuck on the block.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I may be repeating some advice that others gave, but I will give it a shot for you.

Here in Alaska, preheating an engine before starting at -50 and colder isn't an option, it is the only way to even get the engine to turn over.

There are two types of block heaters that we use. One is a freeze plug heater that inserts a heating element into the block by removing the round freeze plug. These are good if you want to leave your engine plugged in all night and start it in the morning. They use between 300 and 500 watts of power.

wm_GE315.jpg


The other is a circulation heater (tank type) that takes water from the bottom drain plug on the block, heats it and returns it back into the top of the block by the heater hose. These use up to 1500 watts of power and are good from taking a frozen cold block to starting it in a few hours (if not sooner). I prefer that type of block heater because they are fast and I don't have to leave the vehicle plugged in all night and they have a temp control switch built into them that shuts on and off as the coolant gets hot... The freeze plug heater has no switches that causes it to turn on or off, it is on all the time it is plugged in.

41IDlGk7xCL._AA280_.jpg

Coolant01.jpg


They make a heater that you cut the bottom radiator hose and put in-line, but those are mostly a waste of money and time. The thermostat on top of the block has to be open to allow water to circulate to heat the block and since that is closed on a cold block, there is little movement of the hot water.


On the engine oil/transmission pan, we put heating pads that run from 50 watts to 100 watts on the average. They are siliconed to the pan and ducted tape until the silicone sets and sticks.

214iusHwZdL._AA280_.jpg


Many use a battery heater that uses a blanket that wraps around the battery or a plate that sits under it and keeps the battery warm.

Anyway, there is a host of options, but for what the temps in your area get down to. More than likely, just a circulation block heater will be all you need, a pan heater will warm the oil at the same time and will help the pressure come up when you first start the engine, but the oil will heat quickly as it goes though a warmed engine.

The Magnetic heaters don't really put out that much heat for getting the block warm in the cold, but they do work if you have a lot of time to kill, but are not very efficient

Good luck and hope this helps out.

Here is some web sites that may help.

http://www.zerostart.com/Files/us_zerostart_04cat.pdf

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/...005253/N-111+2006+200728571+600013984/c-10101

http://www.partsamerica.com/BrandCategories.aspx?MfrCode=FIV
 
PBinWA said:
I have two unused 12 VDC inline oil heaters for preheating vegetable oil. If you added an electric oil pump you might be able to use them for pre-heating your oil just by circulating the oil through these lines. Typically they would have been placed on a fuel line so I'm not sure if you want them on a hydraulic system unless you can isolate them from the pressure.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer PB, but as you point out, not that suited to my app. Someone else should get these. Anyone for a veggie snowcat conversion?
 
Thanks for the illustrated summary. You AK guys would know for sure about cold starting. Matter of life and death up there at times.
 
I guess boggie did know!

Thanks for that info Boggie. How do you usually install the watlow hydraulic oil heaters? Do you just tap an NPT bung into the tank? My application is an ASV Posi-Track MD-70. I seem to recall seeing a plug in the tank (aside from the drain plug) that I could swap out.
 
mtmogs said:
While we're on the subject, anybody have some advice on a heater for hydraulic fluid?
Click to expand...

Couple of way to preheat the hydraulic fluid and keep it warm.

In Prudoe Bay (Oil fields on the North Coast of Alaska) the cold and heavy equipment don't alway match.

One way to preheat the engine is to install heating elements that "look" like what you use on a hot water heater. This involves cutting holes in the tank, welding threaded inserts into the wall of the tank to allow the elements to be screwed into them. Which is a lot of work to be done before you weld on a tank that holds oil.

The other simpler option is to get 500 Watt pan pad heaters that glue to the bottom/side of the tank with silicone and heat the oil though convection.

Kats 24500 500 Watt 5.5" x 8.5" Universal Hot Pad Heater

In some cases, the bigger tanks have holes drilled in through them and a pipe is installed to allow the engine hot cooling water to pass though them and heat the oil as the engine runs with shut off valves for summer operations.
 
Thanks for all the info, everyone :thumb:

I've found most of those links already but wanted real world info :tiphat:

I need a heater for the hydraulic oil in my backhoe, too !

Fogtender, your info is very helpful. I would like the circulator type but am limited on what to attach it to.

The only water hoses on my engine are shown below. I will hunt for another plug at the bottom.

A few loggers use the transfusion type of system but a few have reported cracked blocks because of temperature differential.

Here is a link for the magnetic type. I read somewhere about special temperature transmitting grease that they use to assure full contact, I guess ??

http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/magnetic_block_heaters_269_ctg.htm
 

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mtmogs said:
I guess boggie did know!

Thanks for that info Boggie. How do you usually install the watlow hydraulic oil heaters? Do you just tap an NPT bung into the tank? My application is an ASV Posi-Track MD-70. I seem to recall seeing a plug in the tank (aside from the drain plug) that I could swap out.
Click to expand...

You can get them down to 1" npt pipe male fittings and 120 volt you just need to have room to get them in. not always easy if things are tight. like on most off-road equipment they have their own thermostats. :thumb:
 
pixie said:
Thanks for all the info, everyone :thumb:

I've found most of those links already but wanted real world info :tiphat:

I need a heater for the hydraulic oil in my backhoe, too !

Fogtender, your info is very helpful. I would like the circulator type but am limited on what to attach it to.

The only water hoses on my engine are shown below. I will hunt for another plug at the bottom.

A few loggers use the transfusion type of system but a few have reported cracked blocks because of temperature differential.

Here is a link for the magnetic type. I read somewhere about special temperature transmitting grease that they use to assure full contact, I guess ??

http://www.tractorpartsinc.com/magnetic_block_heaters_269_ctg.htm
Click to expand...


You should have a drain plug that is about a 3/8" size down in the middle of the block at the bottom just above the oil pan, that is where the one fitting would connect to supply the heater, the other would be up by the thermostat housing, should be a plug that you can route the input of the water to for a circulation heater.

Your other option since you are going to cart a generator out there, is a torpedo heater (salamander) that you can slide up under the oil pan with 8" stove pipe and a 90 degree bend in it to blow the hot air up. That not only heats the oil pan, but the block too and you can use the heater on all equipment that needs heating. You can also blow the hot air though the radiator if the bottom is covered, and can sit on the back of the pickup. Just don't do it so close you melt any plastic, you can tell as you use it.

fa14_1.JPG


You can get one for about $150.00+- depending on size. A 100,000 btu should work nicely and heat the engine to start in about an hour at any cold temps you have there.

Good luck.
 
Thanks, Fogtender !!

I did find a plug just above the oil pan and another fitting I can use. And I'll probably put a magnetic heater on the oilpan, also.

The generator lives up at my land and has a small shed. The salamander wouldn't work that well on the J5 ... it's almost water tight underneath. ( Though I have used a salamander with an 8" elbow as a heat gun to peel composite decking off a boat ! )

I'll be looking into some of the other heaters for the hyd. oil on my backhoe ... it's in the frame so a peel and stick should do it. It already has an engine heater but takes forever to get rolling.
 
pixie said:
Thanks, Fogtender !!

I did find a plug just above the oil pan and another fitting I can use. And I'll probably put a magnetic heater on the oilpan, also.

The generator lives up at my land and has a small shed. The salamander wouldn't work that well on the J5 ... it's almost water tight underneath. ( Though I have used a salamander with an 8" elbow as a heat gun to peel composite decking off a boat ! )

I'll be looking into some of the other heaters for the hyd. oil on my backhoe ... it's in the frame so a peel and stick should do it. It already has an engine heater but takes forever to get rolling.
Click to expand...

Well if you use a heater pad, use High temp red silicone to make it stick. Make sure the area is clean of oil and dirt, sanding it a bit is good too. Then put the silicone on the middle of the pad in a big "glob", put it to where you want it to stick, then begin pushing down on the glob in the middle and begin working it out like you were making a pizza. After it is worked out to the edges, it should have no air bubble under it and have full contact with the metal suface. Then wipe the excess off the edges and duct tape it to keep it from peeling back before it sets up. You can even plug it in to speed up the drying process. Letting it set overnight is the best, but with the duct tape holding it in place, you can do what you need to with it. The duct tape can be pulled off the next day or left on to make people think you are holding the machine together with it... works in Alaska!
 
The "salamander type" heaters can really work well. In my 12 seasons of remote field camp work in Antarctica, we relied on Herman-Nelson portable forced air heaters to warm everything, including aircraft engines. When we'd open a remote field camp on the polar plateau we could fire up a Cat D-4 and a 12kw generator within 30 minutes of arrival. These pieces had been sitting cold soaked for 9 months during the polar winter, well below -110F! The trick is too use a surplus parachute and cover the Cat to trap the heat from the Herman-Nelson. Piling snow on the edges to hold it down. It worked great and warmed engine and hydraulics too. Even dayliy once the field camp was running we'd still use this parachute/Herman Nelson heater warmup as it was still too cold for plug-in systems too be totally effective.
 
Thanks Polar. Well I don't think you'll get a better testimonial than one from Antarctica. May be on the cooler end on what the forum users typically deal with. I had never heard the term "salamander heater" before but we used to use them in the barns and in the warehouse when I was a kid. They did work great. These were the 110v versions. I currently have a small propane one that has an AC blower on it. I wasn't aware that you could get a self-contained unit but saw several on the Herman-Nelson website. I imagine they are fairly expensive. The little ones would be perfect for warming a cabin while you are waiting for the woodstove to get cranking.
 
One of the most complete lines of engine and equipment pre-heating products that are supplied to the major OEM manufacturers around the world.

I was the senior sales and tech person for the big stuff such as locomotives, oil field, and sales to OEM manufactures such as Cat, Cummins, ect, and most equipment manufacturers around the world. I have been out of the loop since 91 but they are very industrial oriented with many distributors in most areas. They build only high quality long life heating equipment. Now you know some of my history..........:thumb:

http://www.kimhotstart.com/kimhotstart/
 
mtntopper said:
One of the most complete lines of engine and equipment pre-heating products that are supplied to the major OEM manufacturers around the world.

I was the senior sales and tech person for the big stuff such as locomotives, oil field, and sales to OEM manufactures such as Cat, Cummins, ect, and most equipment manufacturers around the world. I have been with DB Cooper a few times and he really showed me the Ropes Now you know some of my history..........:thumb:

http://www.DPcooper.com/ That's What I have thought all along.:yum: :yum:
Click to expand...
 
Thanks, mtntopper.

Amazon sells one of the Kim Hotshots that's 1000 watts and for 350 ci or less engine for $109.
The big advantage seems to be that they are thermostaticlly controlled where the others don't mention that. None of them have a pump ( that I found) they all work by convection.
 
I thought I'd also add that using a forced air heater like the Herman Nelson allowed us to do deep field service work on all our tracked equipment. We didn't have a heated Heavy Shop to haul them into. So we'd just cover the piece of equipment with the parachute and fire up the heater. The parachute (anchored by snow on the edges) would billow up nicely and the equipment would get all nice and toasty to work on. No cold metal to touch and the ice would melt off in a jiffy.
 
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