• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

Division of Iraq

OkeeDon

New member
I've been watching my favorite channel, CSpan, while I read and type They just flashed a newsbanner on the bottom of the screen that the Iraqi government is considering division of the country by culture. That's not the exact words they used, but it gets the thought across.

That's all that was said. I did a quick google search and there is nothing in the internet news, yet.

I'm guessing, of course, but I would assume this means setting up separate areas for Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. I'll wait for the details, but at first look, this seems like a good idea to me. I don't think the nation ever has a chance as long as there are these three distinct cultures. In fact, if what they are proposing is like have separate states or districts for each culture under one national government, I still think it will fail.

I'll be watching this one with interest, if, in fact, it ever amounts to anything.
 
I did find this, which seems to be the root of the discussion:

Sunni Arabs accuse Shiites of seeking to divide Iraq in stormy parliament session

The Associated Press
spacer.gif

Published: September 7, 2006
null.gif

null.gif

null.gif

BAGHDAD, Iraq Iraq's parliament speaker interrupted a stormy legislative session Thursday after a draft bill submitted by the largest Shiite party led to accusations from Sunni Arabs that they were trying to divide the country.
Mahmoud al-Mashhadani was also angered that Shiite deputies were circulating a draft bill that would establish a three-way federal system in Iraq by setting up a separate autonomous state in the southern region where they are dominant.
"The parliament speaker does not know about this draft bill. Is that credible? Who else should know about it if the speaker does not know? When was it announced?" Al-Mashhadani thundered.
A live broadcast from parliament was interrupted amid acrimonious debate.
The concept of federalism is enshrined in the new Iraqi constitution, and the Kurds in the north already have their own autonomous region. However, special legislation and a referendum would be needed to establish federalism throughout the country — which would entail creating an autonomous, mostly Shiite, region in the south.
Both the north and south are rich in oil, and Sunni Arabs could end up squeezed into Baghdad and Iraq's western provinces — which have no resources. Many Sunnis fear that federalism will lead to the breakup of the country.
"We as the Iraqi National Dialogue Front will not stay in a parliament that leads to the division of Iraq," said Sunni Arab legislator Saleh al-Mutlaq.
He threatened to boycott any session that sought to approve such legislation.
Al-Mutlaq's party is the second largest Sunni Arab grouping in the 275-seat parliament, with 11 deputies.
The Shiite United Iraqi Alliance, the dominant coalition in parliament, is trying to win approval for a law that would allow a law they would establish a southern region on the model of the Kurdish north.
By far the biggest promoter of the southern region is the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, headed by cleric Abdul Aziz al-Hakim.
____
Associated Press Writer Bushra Juhi in Baghdad contributed to this report.
 
I think it is a horrible idea. It essentially sets up a situation where the Sunni areas will be taken over by Iran. Further it creates an idea of division rather than agreement and coexistence. It is a very defeatest point of view and a rather sad one. Pragmatically it might stop some of the violence short term, but on the other hand it could easily lead to increased genocide of the "minority" culture in each region. For example in the Sunni areas, I'd suspect that no Shia or Kurd would be safe. In the Shia areas, the Sunnis and Kurds would likely be hunted down. Etc. Strikes me that Pol Pot, Baby Doc, and Hitler did similar things.
 
Actually, I think it is more likely that Iran would take over the Shia areas since Iran is Shia, but I get your point.

The ironic thing is, according to all the reports I've read, the Sunnis and Shiites got along just fine before our invasion, with some intermarriage, for example. The nation at that time was very secular, and religion was not the main determinant. The Kurds were pretty much deprecated by both the Sunnis and Shiites, but that seemed to be more of an ethnic thing that religion based.

As predicted but ignored by our government, our invasion actually opened up the country to outside influences and allowed the religious fanaticism to become much more important.
 
OkeeDon said:
I did find this, which seems to be the root of the discussion:

Sunni Arabs accuse Shiites of seeking to divide Iraq in stormy parliament session

The Associated Press
spacer.gif

Published: September 7, 2006
null.gif

null.gif

null.gif

BAGHDAD, Iraq Iraq's parliament speaker interrupted a stormy legislative session Thursday after a draft bill submitted by the largest Shiite party led to accusations from Sunni Arabs that they were trying to divide the country.
Mahmoud al-Mashhadani was also angered that Shiite deputies were circulating a draft bill that would establish a three-way federal system in Iraq by setting up a separate autonomous state in the southern region where they are dominant.
"The parliament speaker does not know about this draft bill. Is that credible? Who else should know about it if the speaker does not know? When was it announced?" Al-Mashhadani thundered.
A live broadcast from parliament was interrupted amid acrimonious debate.
The concept of federalism is enshrined in the new Iraqi constitution, and the Kurds in the north already have their own autonomous region. However, special legislation and a referendum would be needed to establish federalism throughout the country — which would entail creating an autonomous, mostly Shiite, region in the south.
Both the north and south are rich in oil, and Sunni Arabs could end up squeezed into Baghdad and Iraq's western provinces — which have no resources. Many Sunnis fear that federalism will lead to the breakup of the country.
"We as the Iraqi National Dialogue Front will not stay in a parliament that leads to the division of Iraq," said Sunni Arab legislator Saleh al-Mutlaq.
He threatened to boycott any session that sought to approve such legislation.
Al-Mutlaq's party is the second largest Sunni Arab grouping in the 275-seat parliament, with 11 deputies.
The Shiite United Iraqi Alliance, the dominant coalition in parliament, is trying to win approval for a law that would allow a law they would establish a southern region on the model of the Kurdish north.
By far the biggest promoter of the southern region is the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, headed by cleric Abdul Aziz al-Hakim.
____
Associated Press Writer Bushra Juhi in Baghdad contributed to this report.

How long before the the same story is in the media with only the following changes:
Instead of Iraq, it's the U.S.,
and
Instead of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis
it's Whites, African Americans, and Mexicans?

:hide:
 
Wannafish said:
How long before the the same story is in the media with only the following changes:
Instead of Iraq, it's the U.S.,
and
Instead of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis
it's Whites, African Americans, and Mexicans?

:hide:
I think that's a pretty remote prossibilty. The United States is unique in assimilating people from all types of backgrounds. If African Americans were to want to segregate themselves, it would have happened many years ago.

Today, in my city, there is no segragation, there are no "sections", there are no "ghettos" or "slums", and there is no division by race, color or anything else.

That happened for several reasons. First of all, the city was developed by a single developer who sold building lots all over the world. They had sales offices in NYC's Grand Central Station (they actually built a model house in the station), Germany, Hong King and San Jaun Puerto Rico, among many others. There were over 70,000 lots. The city was essentially integrated before the first house was constructed. Second, as a relatively new city (just over 40 years old), all of the housing development was under the rules of equal opportunity housing, and the local real estate folks took it seriously (they used to have a special class about equal housing for new Realtors. I know because I taught it.) Third, it is largely a middle class community; the basic attitude among all residents was, and is, "if you can afford it, come on in." Today, the proportions of different ethnicities are about the same as the nation as a whole, and they all live side-by-side, randomly, in the houses they liked, with no prejudice. We're over 151,000 people now, so we must be doing something right.

Next, my rural property is in a much more conservative area. Okeechobee
County is the largest cattle-raising county in Florida. It does have old-time "sections", an area which is mostly African American, and several areas which are mostly Mexican or Gautemalan. But, even here, the main division is economic. If a Mexican American or African American is reasonably successful and can afford a more middle class area, no one stops them from moving there.

My son-in-law is half Portuguese; his best friend is Mexican. They were installing a fence at his friend's 5 acres a few days ago. Later, we were all together at services at the Lutheran Church, and Junior (the Mexican) said, "That was too darned hard. I'm going to hire some Mexicans to do the work". Then, he laughed.

This area would come to a grinding halt without the Mexicans. They are the skilled masons, and the skilled roofers willing to spend a Florida Summer day on a metal roof. They are the ranch cowboys and the expert landscapers. The best nursery in the area is owned by Senor Flores, which is how he is universally known and respected in the area.

I don't know how it is in your area, but around here, if you suggested splitting the country, you'd get nothing but a horse laugh.
 
beds said:
That's what I thought would happen. Palestine, bigger Iran and Kurdia/Turkey.

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showpost.php?p=28647&postcount=11

AFAIK, The Kurds hate the Turks (and vice versa). The Sunni's would either join/ally with Syria but probably stay independent (although I think they would be land locked). The Shia might join with Iran.

BUT - at the end of the day the oil fields are the money grab and no one wants to see the other guy get the better deal. I think the Kurds want out but that may open up some form of war between them and the Turks if the Kurds in Turkey tried to leave and join the new country.

Personally, I think allowing the ethnic seperation of the countries is probably a good thing. Some groups will have to re-locate but this is not the first time this has happened in history.

The US is unique in it's melting pot philosophy but modern trends towards multi-culturalism(sp?) threatens this since it tends to promote lots of little sub-cultures that can't get along.

PB
 
An interesting article regarding Condoleezza Rice's parallels between the current situation in Iraq and the US Civil war:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060905/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rice_civil_war_3

Rice likens Iraq and Civil War critics

By BARRY SCHWEID, AP Diplomatic Writer Tue Sep 5, 2:22 PM ET

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is drawing a parallel between between the Iraq war and the Civil War. Both had their critics but both were justified, she says.

In both cases, it was the right decision to fight and see the wars through, Rice, who is black and is from Alabama, said in an interview with Essence Magazine.
Asked if she still thought the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003 was right, considering the cost in lives and treasure, Rice said, "Absolutely."

Rice then offered a parallel between critics of the administration's Iraq policies and "people who thought it was a mistake to fight the Civil War (in this country) to its end and to insist that the emancipation of slaves would hold."
"I'm sure that there were people who said, "why don't we get out of this now, take a peace with the South, but leave the South with slaves."
"Just because things are difficult, it does't mean that they are wrong or that you turn back," Rice told the magazine, which has a large audience among African-Americans.
Rice, a former academic, said she spent the summer reading biographies of the Founding Fathers and said she was certain "there were people who thought the Declaration of Independence was a mistake" as well.
 
Now a mor in-depth Blog analysis of Condi's current position as well as a Flashback to the Democratic Party Platform of 1864 (which seems a lot like the Democratic Party platform of 2006).

http://vernondent.blogspot.com/2006/09/condis-civil-war.html

Condi's Civil War


[Posted by Callimachus]

Condoleezza makes a comparison between the Iraq War and the American Civil War. As usual, nobody gets it. My newsroom editor's sarcastic reaction was, "So does that mean Robert E. Lee was a terrorist?" But that's typical.

Rice then offered a parallel between critics of the administration's Iraq policies and "people who thought it was a mistake to fight the Civil War (in this country) to its end and to insist that the emancipation of slaves would hold."

"I'm sure that there were people who said, 'why don't we get out of this now, take a peace with the South, but leave the South with slaves.' "

"Just because things are difficult, it does't mean that they are wrong or that you turn back," Rice told the magazine, which has a large audience among African-Americans.
And I suspect she knew who those "some people" were: The Democrats. You can get a lot of mileage out of comparing Bush's situation to Lincoln's, and evidently I do. It's about as useful as any such exercise: Not much, except in forcing people to rise above immediate political passions and think in terms of issues and ethics.

But the comparison Condi seems to be making here has more heft. The Democratic Party platform of 1864 makes interesting reading. The Democrats opposed Lincoln, who had an indifferent record in the state militia and had declined the opportunity to volunteer in the Mexican War, with professional soldier George B. McClellan. And they flanked him on the military side to push an explicitly "end-the-war-now" campaign:

Resolved, that this convention does explicitly declare, as the sense of the American people, that after four years of failure to restore the Union by the experiment of war, during which, under the pretence of military necessity, or war power higher than the Constitution, the Constitution itself has been disregarded in every part, and public liberty and private right alike trodden down, and the material prosperity of the country essentially impaired, justice, humanity, liberty, and the public welfare demand that immediate efforts be made for a cessation of hostilities, with a view to an ultimate convention of the States or other peaceable means, to the end that at the earliest practicable moment peace may be restored on the basis of the federal Union of the States.
The platform doesn't explicitly say "leave the South with slaves." That wasn't they way of political language, then or now. What it does say is "preserve ... the rights of the States unimpaired," which was 1860s poli-speak for the same thing. It also pointedly complains of "the administrative usurpation of extraordinary and dangerous powers not granted by the Constitution ...." Sound familiar? Even though CW isn't her specialty, I bet Condi has read it.

But of course, they also were supporting the troops -- in everything but pushing on to victory:

Resolved, that the sympathy of the Democratic party is heartily and earnestly extended to the soldiers of our army and the seamen of our navy, who are and have been in the field under the flag of their country; and, in the event of its attaining power, they will receive all the care, protection, and regard that the brave soldiers and sailors of the republic have so nobly earned.
It didn't work. Not only did Lincoln win, he outpolled McClellan among soldiers in the field, 119,754 votes to 34,291.
 
PBinWA said:
An interesting article regarding Condoleezza Rice's parallels between the current situation in Iraq and the US Civil war:
'P=m2kFIESOwhV0UPxqRLk58gBdSKmXpkUBs0YACSff&T=19vj 6qd8f%2fX%3d1157739334%2fE%3d83018390%2fR%3dnews%2 fK%3d5%2fV%3d1.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d9927685 60%2fH%3dY2FjaGVoaW50PSJuZXdzIiBjb250ZW50PSJpdDtJc mFxO3JlZnVybF92ZXJub25kZW50X2Jsb2dzcG90X2NvbSIgcmV mdXJsPSJyZWZ1cmxfdmVybm9uZGVudF9ibG9nc3BvdF9jb20iI HRvcGljcz0icmVmdXJsX3Zlcm5vbmRlbnRfYmxvZ3Nwb3RfY29 tIg--%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d2D47BFD1');yzq_a('a', '&U=13ao8fkkb%2fN%3dxLyLDtG_Ruw-%2fC%3d545524.9119895.10018209.1442997%2fD%3dLREC% 2fB%3d3970794');}
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Wow, that woman's got a mouth on her. I thought I was bad when I would say $#@Q*#+ but she can really carry on... :rolleyes: :StickOutT
 
bczoom said:
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Wow, that woman's got a mouth on her. I thought I was bad when I would say $#@Q*#+ but she can really carry on... :rolleyes: :StickOutT

Wow - you caught that in about 5 seconds 'cause I deleted it almost immediately!
 
Top