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Cash for Clunkers: Hurts Poor, Fails to help Automakers

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
Yup, it was very popular. It gave a lot of people a pile of money for some really crappy cars. But to what end?

From the leading newspaper of economic and business review, I submit this analysis from the Wall Street Journal:
Clunkers in Practice
One of Washington's all-time dumb ideas.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...74453280766443704.html?mod=wsj_share_facebook

Remember "cash for clunkers," the program that subsidized Americans to the tune of nearly $3 billion to buy a new car and destroy an old one? Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood declared in August that, "This is the one stimulus program that seems to be working better than just about any other program."

If that's true, heaven help the other programs. Last week U.S. automakers reported that new car sales for September, the first month since the clunker program expired, sank by 25% from a year earlier. Sales at GM and Chrysler fell by 45% and 42%, respectively. Ford was down about 5%. Some 700,000 cars were sold in the summer under the program as buyers received up to $4,500 to buy a new car they would probably have purchased anyway, so all the program seems to have done is steal those sales from the future. Exactly as critics predicted.

Cash for clunkers had two objectives: help the environment by increasing fuel efficiency, and boost car sales to help Detroit and the economy. It achieved neither. According to Hudson Institute economist Irwin Stelzer, at best "the reduction in gasoline consumption will cut our oil consumption by 0.2 percent per year, or less than a single day's gasoline use." Burton Abrams and George Parsons of the University of Delaware added up the total benefits from reduced gas consumption, environmental improvements and the benefit to car buyers and companies, minus the overall cost of cash for clunkers, and found a net cost of roughly $2,000 per vehicle. Rather than stimulating the economy, the program made the nation as a whole $1.4 billion poorer.

The basic fallacy of cash for clunkers is that you can somehow create wealth by destroying existing assets that are still productive, in this case cars that still work. Under the program, auto dealers were required to destroy the car engines of trade-ins with a sodium silicate solution, then smash them and send them to the junk yard. As the journalist Henry Hazlitt wrote in his classic, "Economics in One Lesson," you can't raise living standards by breaking windows so some people can get jobs repairing them.

In the category of all-time dumb ideas, cash for clunkers rivals the New Deal brainstorm to slaughter pigs to raise pork prices. The people who really belong in the junk yard are the wizards in Washington who peddled this economic malarkey.​
 
WOW!!!

Imagine that.. another program that is smoke and mirrors....and did nto do what it was designed to do.

I never supported this one in the first place. Way too expensive and you could see from the beginning that the poor were not going to get new cars.

ugggghhhh...
 
Bump.

Our government at its best...

Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com

Full article here with excerpts below.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159446/article.html

Nearly 690,000 vehicles were sold during the Cash for Clunkers program, officially known as CARS, but Edmunds.com analysts calculated that only 125,000 of the sales were incremental. The rest of the sales would have happened anyway, regardless of the existence of the program.

Edmunds.com's analysts divided three billion dollars by 125,000 vehicles to arrive at the average $24,000 per vehicle.
 
As most of you know, I work directly with car dealers on a daily basis. With very, very few exceptions, the auto dealers I work with consider the Clunkers program the biggest scam perpetrated on the general public, at the expense of those of us who actually pay taxes, that has ever happened. Unsuspecting consumers thought they were getting a $4500 'gift' from the government if they bought a new car. I'm yet to actually see where that happened even once.

Let's look at an average Clunker deal. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting had an old beater they'd been driving around for years but would prefer (not need) a nice new car. Let's say that Mr. & Mrs Unsuspecting were driving the vehicle that seems to have been traded in and crushed more than any other; a Ford Explorer. Also, in almost all cases, their trade was free and clear of any liens. In plain English, it was paid for and the Unsuspecting family had no payment on the vehicle. Also in most cases the insurance and license expenses for the so called Clunker had dropped to be minimal. So, the Unsuspecting family decided to use the Clunker plan and get a new car. Let's do the math.

Their Explorer had an actual cash value (ACV) of $3500. However, under the Clunker program the Unsuspecting family actually met the qualifications to receive $4500 for their car (many only qualified for $3500). So, the car dealer no longer has to actually appraise the trade. On average the dealers figured it was worth a hundred bucks because that's what they'd get from a salvage yard for it. Since the Unsuspecting family knew they'd get $4500 for their trade, there was no negotiating for the trade value. It was set. The car dealer did not have to 'over allow' (apply any discount from their new vehicle to the ACV of the trade - to show a higher trade value on paper) on the transaction. This allowed gross profits to rise considerably under the Clunker deal from the auto dealer's prospective. Anyway, let's do the actual math as I earlier promised. It may be easier to do a 'regular' deal and then do a 'Clunker' deal for comparison reasons.

Regular Deal:
Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their Explorer in on a new Escape. Let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

After negotiating, the dealer appraised their Explorer for $3500 (ACV) and then over allowed $1500 (discount off of the sticker price of the $25k Escape), showing the Unsuspectings $5000 for their Explorer towards the purchase of a new Escape ($25k less $5k trade) leaving the amount due at $20k. The Unsuspectings then have a tax due on the $20k of $1,400 (assuming a 7% tax rate), so they either have to write a check for $21,400 or finance some or all of that amount. Let's say they pay cash, so they pay $21,400 and they are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost $21,400 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Clunker Deal:

Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their same Explorer in on a new Escape. Again, let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

Generally, there is no negotiating and the dealer gives the Unsuspectings $4500 off of the $25,000 Escape, leaving them with an amount due of $20,500 plus tax of $1435, totaling $21,935.00. If they pay cash, like above, they pay the $21,935.00 and are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost is $21,935 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Net Result of Using Clunker program
Oops, the Unsuspecting family ended up paying $535 more under the Clunker program, right? Nope. Wait until tax time comes around. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting owe taxes on the income they received from the government of $4500 for using the Clunker money (Yes, it's taxable). Assuming that the Unsuspecting family is in the 28% tax bracket, they owe an additional $1,260 in taxes in addition to paying $535 more for their vehicle. That means that using the Clunker program cost the Unsuspecting family $1,795 more than if they wouldn't have used the program!

To make matters worse, the taxpayers actually do have to foot the bill for all of the 'Clunkers' traded in. Um, I forgot, how many billions was that? To pile on even more bad news, the very people who really need help getting a vehicle are the people looking for a vehicle that costs under $5000. Guess what? Since so many of those were destroyed, the price of the remaining ones went up and the selection of them went down. What a deal! However, being since the 'Clunker' program was so "successful", Obama is considering doing a similar deal again. What a deal.
 
As most of you know, I work directly with car dealers on a daily basis. With very, very few exceptions, the auto dealers I work with consider the Clunkers program the biggest scam perpetrated on the general public, at the expense of those of us who actually pay taxes, that has ever happened. Unsuspecting consumers thought they were getting a $4500 'gift' from the government if they bought a new car. I'm yet to actually see where that happened even once.

Let's look at an average Clunker deal. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting had an old beater they'd been driving around for years but would prefer (not need) a nice new car. Let's say that Mr. & Mrs Unsuspecting were driving the vehicle that seems to have been traded in and crushed more than any other; a Ford Explorer. Also, in almost all cases, their trade was free and clear of any liens. In plain English, it was paid for and the Unsuspecting family had no payment on the vehicle. Also in most cases the insurance and license expenses for the so called Clunker had dropped to be minimal. So, the Unsuspecting family decided to use the Clunker plan and get a new car. Let's do the math.

Their Explorer had an actual cash value (ACV) of $3500. However, under the Clunker program the Unsuspecting family actually met the qualifications to receive $4500 for their car (many only qualified for $3500). So, the car dealer no longer has to actually appraise the trade. On average the dealers figured it was worth a hundred bucks because that's what they'd get from a salvage yard for it. Since the Unsuspecting family knew they'd get $4500 for their trade, there was no negotiating for the trade value. It was set. The car dealer did not have to 'over allow' (apply any discount from their new vehicle to the ACV of the trade - to show a higher trade value on paper) on the transaction. This allowed gross profits to rise considerably under the Clunker deal from the auto dealer's prospective. Anyway, let's do the actual math as I earlier promised. It may be easier to do a 'regular' deal and then do a 'Clunker' deal for comparison reasons.

Regular Deal:
Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their Explorer in on a new Escape. Let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

After negotiating, the dealer appraised their Explorer for $3500 (ACV) and then over allowed $1500 (discount off of the sticker price of the $25k Escape), showing the Unsuspectings $5000 for their Explorer towards the purchase of a new Escape ($25k less $5k trade) leaving the amount due at $20k. The Unsuspectings then have a tax due on the $20k of $1,400 (assuming a 7% tax rate), so they either have to write a check for $21,400 or finance some or all of that amount. Let's say they pay cash, so they pay $21,400 and they are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost $21,400 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Clunker Deal:

Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their same Explorer in on a new Escape. Again, let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

Generally, there is no negotiating and the dealer gives the Unsuspectings $4500 off of the $25,000 Escape, leaving them with an amount due of $20,500 plus tax of $1435, totaling $21,935.00. If they pay cash, like above, they pay the $21,935.00 and are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost is $21,935 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Net Result of Using Clunker program
Oops, the Unsuspecting family ended up paying $535 more under the Clunker program, right? Nope. Wait until tax time comes around. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting owe taxes on the income they received from the government of $4500 for using the Clunker money (Yes, it's taxable). Assuming that the Unsuspecting family is in the 28% tax bracket, they owe an additional $1,260 in taxes in addition to paying $535 more for their vehicle. That means that using the Clunker program cost the Unsuspecting family $1,795 more than if they wouldn't have used the program!

To make matters worse, the taxpayers actually do have to foot the bill for all of the 'Clunkers' traded in. Um, I forgot, how many billions was that? To pile on even more bad news, the very people who really need help getting a vehicle are the people looking for a vehicle that costs under $5000. Guess what? Since so many of those were destroyed, the price of the remaining ones went up and the selection of them went down. What a deal! However, being since the 'Clunker' program was so "successful", Obama is considering doing a similar deal again. What a deal.


The three biggest lies...

The Check is in the Mail!

I will respect you in the morning!

And my favorate....

Hi! I am from the Government and here to help!
 
As most of you know, I work directly with car dealers on a daily basis. With very, very few exceptions, the auto dealers I work with consider the Clunkers program the biggest scam perpetrated on the general public, at the expense of those of us who actually pay taxes, that has ever happened. Unsuspecting consumers thought they were getting a $4500 'gift' from the government if they bought a new car. I'm yet to actually see where that happened even once.

Let's look at an average Clunker deal. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting had an old beater they'd been driving around for years but would prefer (not need) a nice new car. Let's say that Mr. & Mrs Unsuspecting were driving the vehicle that seems to have been traded in and crushed more than any other; a Ford Explorer. Also, in almost all cases, their trade was free and clear of any liens. In plain English, it was paid for and the Unsuspecting family had no payment on the vehicle. Also in most cases the insurance and license expenses for the so called Clunker had dropped to be minimal. So, the Unsuspecting family decided to use the Clunker plan and get a new car. Let's do the math.

Their Explorer had an actual cash value (ACV) of $3500. However, under the Clunker program the Unsuspecting family actually met the qualifications to receive $4500 for their car (many only qualified for $3500). So, the car dealer no longer has to actually appraise the trade. On average the dealers figured it was worth a hundred bucks because that's what they'd get from a salvage yard for it. Since the Unsuspecting family knew they'd get $4500 for their trade, there was no negotiating for the trade value. It was set. The car dealer did not have to 'over allow' (apply any discount from their new vehicle to the ACV of the trade - to show a higher trade value on paper) on the transaction. This allowed gross profits to rise considerably under the Clunker deal from the auto dealer's prospective. Anyway, let's do the actual math as I earlier promised. It may be easier to do a 'regular' deal and then do a 'Clunker' deal for comparison reasons.

Regular Deal:
Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their Explorer in on a new Escape. Let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

After negotiating, the dealer appraised their Explorer for $3500 (ACV) and then over allowed $1500 (discount off of the sticker price of the $25k Escape), showing the Unsuspectings $5000 for their Explorer towards the purchase of a new Escape ($25k less $5k trade) leaving the amount due at $20k. The Unsuspectings then have a tax due on the $20k of $1,400 (assuming a 7% tax rate), so they either have to write a check for $21,400 or finance some or all of that amount. Let's say they pay cash, so they pay $21,400 and they are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost $21,400 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Clunker Deal:

Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting trade their same Explorer in on a new Escape. Again, let's say the Escape had a sticker price of $25,000.

Generally, there is no negotiating and the dealer gives the Unsuspectings $4500 off of the $25,000 Escape, leaving them with an amount due of $20,500 plus tax of $1435, totaling $21,935.00. If they pay cash, like above, they pay the $21,935.00 and are on their way with their new Escape.

Net cost is $21,935 plus higher insurance premiums and higher plate costs. If they financed it, or a portion of it, they have a payment when they didn't before.

Net Result of Using Clunker program
Oops, the Unsuspecting family ended up paying $535 more under the Clunker program, right? Nope. Wait until tax time comes around. Mr. & Mrs. Unsuspecting owe taxes on the income they received from the government of $4500 for using the Clunker money (Yes, it's taxable). Assuming that the Unsuspecting family is in the 28% tax bracket, they owe an additional $1,260 in taxes in addition to paying $535 more for their vehicle. That means that using the Clunker program cost the Unsuspecting family $1,795 more than if they wouldn't have used the program!

To make matters worse, the taxpayers actually do have to foot the bill for all of the 'Clunkers' traded in. Um, I forgot, how many billions was that? To pile on even more bad news, the very people who really need help getting a vehicle are the people looking for a vehicle that costs under $5000. Guess what? Since so many of those were destroyed, the price of the remaining ones went up and the selection of them went down. What a deal! However, being since the 'Clunker' program was so "successful", Obama is considering doing a similar deal again. What a deal.

This analysis isn't quite spot on. First, some clunkers were worth much less than $3,500, and second, clunker credits are not subject to Federal Income Tax.

That said, I think the analogy of breaking windows to employ window installers is pretty darn good.
 
This analysis isn't quite spot on. First, some clunkers were worth much less than $3,500, and second, clunker credits are not subject to Federal Income Tax.

That said, I think the analogy of breaking windows to employ window installers is pretty darn good.

They have already announced that the $4,500.00 is going to be taxable on Federal income tax... That doesn't even count different State's tax laws...

Funny part is that everyone traded in the U.S. Made cars and bought Foreign cars inmass.... Japan is smiling!
 
Who is "they"?

You are correct, I did find that there has been a lot of quotes stating there was, but on the state level, it is taxable.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/clunkers.asp

But in the big picture, we are all paying out the A$$ in these programs of giveaways from our taxes along with all the other bailouts, stimulus packages and on and on.

The money didn't come from heaven, it comes from "OUR" wallets collectively.... Printing of money we don't have, and borrowing past our limits...
 
You are correct, I did find that there has been a lot of quotes stating there was, but on the state level, it is taxable.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/clunkers.asp

But in the big picture, we are all paying out the A$$ in these programs of giveaway in out taxes along with all the other bailouts, stimulus packages and on and on.

The money didn't come from heaven, it comes from "OUR" wallets collectively....

With this, I agree.:thumb:
 
Every dealership I've visited reported every single transaction to both the federal government as well as state governments. This should be glaringly obvious since the dealerships had to do so to get paid their money. In the fine print of the disclosures the Clunkers (as people who were taken advantage of by the program are called) all signed clearly stated that that state and federal taxes may apply to the transaction. This is a fact. My opinion of the disclaimer is that it was written as so the Obama administration could withdraw the federal portion of the tax as was definitely part of the original plan. And, if that portion is removed due to complaints, it only makes the program worse for the actual taxpayers.

Second, very few of the so called 'clunkers' traded in were actually at the end of their useful life. It is a fact that these vehicles are the ones that lower income people buy. Nobody in their right mind can miss seeing that the government took thousands of these vehicles off the market and left those of modest means with fewer alternatives for transportation.

Plain and simple, the Clunkers program was a distraction and the media was nothing more than a puppet for the government in touting the 'success' of the program. The few people who really needed such a plan ended up buying more of a car than they could afford and the repossession rates for vehicles financed on the 'Clunkers' program far exceeds normal repossession rates. The program soaked billions from the taxpayers and damaged the very people that the spin machine purports it helped. When confronted with the facts, Obama zombies always resort to the 'well, it didn't cost the taxpayers near as much as the bank bailouts'. Sorry, but that was yet another scam on the American taxpayers which, contrary to popular belief, isn't the majority of people living in this country.
 
You are correct, I did find that there has been a lot of quotes stating there was, but on the state level, it is taxable.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/clunkers.asp

But in the big picture, we are all paying out the A$$ in these programs of giveaways from our taxes along with all the other bailouts, stimulus packages and on and on.

The money didn't come from heaven, it comes from "OUR" wallets collectively.... Printing of money we don't have, and borrowing past our limits...
Be careful, Washington IS heaven for Democrats, therefore, it DID come from heaven.:clap: Yet another successful gubment program just like Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Unsociable Insecurity...

"HEY! Where's my gubmit check?"
 
Be careful, Washington IS heaven for Democrats, therefore, it DID come from heaven.:clap: Yet another successful gubment program just like Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Unsociable Insecurity...

"HEY! Where's my gubmit check?"

I have a brother in law, whom I've spoken about before, who simply shakes his head as he cashes his government checks. He was extremely unfortunate in the respect that he developed a disease that has rendered him legally blind. He is completely blind in one eye and has only 15% tunnel vision in his other eye. He'd not trade his vision for any government check if given the choice.

However, having said that, he has become a student of our tax system. His wife makes nearly 40k a year and he brings in a decent amount (I don't think he'd approve of me disclosing the exact amount online) from the government. At the end of each year he rushes to do his taxes as soon as humanly possible. He does so because he and his wife generally get anywhere from $6000 to $8000 more back from the government than they have totally paid in taxes. Being that he has some time on his hands, you'd be surprised at exactly how large of a percentage of the population basically pay NO federal taxes.

The bottom line is that, literally, even a blind man can see that a government cannot continue to exist when it is bleeding a small percentage of the population for almost all of it's revenue while making it quite literally an occupation to simply live in this country and have babies. Even though it may mean an end to his completely free ride, he votes against the destruction of our government at every election. He only has a high school diploma, but he keeps asking me how, for example, you can take ten people and make two of the ten pay the way for not only themselves but the eight others.
 
I have a brother in law, whom I've spoken about before, who simply shakes his head as he cashes his government checks. He was extremely unfortunate in the respect that he developed a disease that has rendered him legally blind. He is completely blind in one eye and has only 15% tunnel vision in his other eye. He'd not trade his vision for any government check if given the choice.

However, having said that, he has become a student of our tax system. His wife makes nearly 40k a year and he brings in a decent amount (I don't think he'd approve of me disclosing the exact amount online) from the government. At the end of each year he rushes to do his taxes as soon as humanly possible. He does so because he and his wife generally get anywhere from $6000 to $8000 more back from the government than they have totally paid in taxes. Being that he has some time on his hands, you'd be surprised at exactly how large of a percentage of the population basically pay NO federal taxes.

The bottom line is that, literally, even a blind man can see that a government cannot continue to exist when it is bleeding a small percentage of the population for almost all of it's revenue while making it quite literally an occupation to simply live in this country and have babies. Even though it may mean an end to his completely free ride, he votes against the destruction of our government at every election. He only has a high school diploma, but he keeps asking me how, for example, you can take ten people and make two of the ten pay the way for not only themselves but the eight others.
Your BIL is wise beyond his years...actually, smarter than most of the Washington establishment.
 
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