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Can we/Should we : help Lebanon?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
Lebanon, the nation north of Israel, is often shown as a semi-secular nation that allows both Christian and Muslim citizens to live in relative peace, and it lives in relative peace with Israel. Lebanon has also been relatively friendly toward the US and the West. There are factions within Lebanon that are decidedly unfriendly of the West, and for that matter unfriendly to their own Christian citizens.

It also has a history of being a puppet of terrorist nation Syria, but it is trying to throw off the Syrian influence over the past year. Syria upset many Lebanese citizens when it was tied to the murders of several popular Lebanese politicians in the past 18 months.

Now Lebanon, which has a very weak authority in its own land, and an even weaker military, has actually attacked a Palestenian refugee camp that was harboring Al-Quada.

Do we come to the aid of Lebanon and bolster its military to give them strength to enter these Palestenian enclaves that are set up inside Lebanon? Or is the region just a political nightmare for the US and we cause more harm than good?




ap_small.gif

Dozens killed in Lebanese fighting


By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer 33 minutes ago

Lebanese troops tightened a siege of a Palestinian refugee camp Monday where a shadowy group suspected of ties to al-Qaida was holed up, pounding the camp with artillery a day after the worst eruption of violence since the end of the country's 1975-90 civil war.

Lebanese officials said one of the men killed in Sunday's fighting was a suspect in a failed German train bombing — a new sign that the camp had become a refuge for militants planning attacks outside of Lebanon. In the past, others in the camp have said they were aiming to send trained fighters into Iraq.

Saddam El-Hajdib was the fourth-highest ranking official in the Fatah Islam group, an official said Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. El-Hajdib had been on trial in absentia in Lebanon in connection with the failed German plot.

The death toll remained uncertain as hundreds of Lebanese army troops, backed by tanks and armored carriers, surrounded the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp on Tripoli's outskirts early Monday.

M-48 battle tanks unleashed their cannon fire on the camp, sending orange flames followed by white plumes of smoke. The militants fired mortars toward the troops at daybreak Monday.

At least 27 soldiers and 20 militants had been killed, Lebanese security officials said Monday, but they did not know how many civilians had been killed inside the camp because it is off-limits to their authority.

One official in the camp said a total of 34 people had been killed inside the camp, including 14 civilians. But that could not be independently confirmed and other estimates of civilian deaths were lower.

An army officer at the frontline, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said troops directed concentrated fire at buildings known to house militants.

"Everything we know that they were present in has been targeted," he told The Associated Press.
Ahmed Methqal, a Muslim cleric in the camp, told al-Jazeera television by phone that sniper fire had confined the camp's 30,000 residents to their houses and that five civilians had been killed.

"They are targeting buildings, with people in them," he said. "What's the guilt of children, women and the elderly?"

Mohammed Hanafi, identified by al-Jazeera as a human rights activist in the camp, said a total of 34 people had been killed and 150 wounded.

It was unclear if Lebanese authorities had known El-Hajdib's whereabouts, or the whereabouts of the group's leader, before a gunbattle first broke out in Tripoli, a predominantly Sunni city known to have Islamic militants, witnesses said. After the first street fighting, the army began its siege of the nearby camp.
But Lebanon has struggled to defeat armed groups that control pockets of Lebanon — especially inside the country's 12 Palestinian refugee camps housing 350,000 people, which Lebanese authorities can't enter.
Some camps have become havens for Islamic militants accused of carrying out attacks in the country and of sending recruits to fight U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq.

Palestinian officials in the West Bank rushed to distance themselves from the Fatah Islam group and urged Palestinian refugees in the camp to isolate the militant group, which first set up in the northern Lebanese camp last fall after its leader was released from a Syrian jail.

The group's leader, a Palestinian named Shaker al-Absi wanted in three countries, said in a March interview with The New York Times that he was trying to spread al-Qaida's ideology and was training fighters inside the camp for attacks on other countries.

He would not specify which countries but expressed anger toward the United States. And he was sentenced to death earlier in absentia along with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq killed last summer by U.S. forces in Iraq, for the 2002 assassination of an American diplomat in Jordan.

Al-Absi had been in custody in Syria until last fall but was released and set up in the camp, where he apparently found some recruits, Lebanese officials said.

The Lebanese Broadcasting Corp. TV station reported Sunday that also among the dead militants also were men from Bangladesh, Yemen and other Arab countries, underlining the group's reach outside of Lebanon.

Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said Sunday the fighting was a "dangerous attempt at hitting Lebanese security."

Major Palestinian factions have dissociated themselves from the group. Lebanese Sunni political and religious leaders backed the army and the government.

Meanwhile, in Beirut late Sunday, an explosion across the street from a busy shopping mall killed a 63-year-old woman and injured 12 other people in the Christian sector of the Lebanese capital — further raising fears of unrest, police said.

Beirut and surrounding suburbs have seen a series of explosions in the last two years, many targeting Christian areas. Authorities blamed Fatah Islam for Feb. 13 bombings of commuter buses that killed three people, but the group denied involvement.
Syria has denied involvement in any of the bombings, but Lebanon's national police commander Maj. Gen. Ashraf Rifi said Sunday that Damascus was using the Fatah Islam group as a covert way to wreak havoc in the country.
___
Associated Press Writer Hussein Dakroub in Beirut contributed to this report.
 
I wish them well, but we have our hands full at this time. Plus, I do not see how we could intervene without causing more harm than good.
 
Nope. I don't see them offering to help us in Iraq.

That whole region is a mess - let's leave it to the U.N. to resolve. That way we know it will just get messed up further and nothing will ever get done but at least the rest of the world won't be able to whine at us.

PB
 
Nope. I don't see them offering to help us in Iraq.

- let's leave it to the U.N. to resolve.


Well I'm not sure the Lebanese can help us in Iraq, they have a military that is probably weaker than the Massachussettes National Guard. The Lebanese are actually one of the few friendly nations (or at least friendlier nations) in the region. I would not classify them as an ally, but they are far from an enemy and certainly are on pretty good terms with the US.

But if we leave it up to the UN we have to wonder who's side the UN is actually on. Today it was reported that a UN "relief" convoy was caught in crossfire inside one of the refugee camps. If the Lebanese governement is fighting Al-Quaida, and if they are the effective armed control inside this so-called refugee camp, then isn't the UN simply sending supplies to Al-Quaida?
Lebanon battle rages; relief convoy hit

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer 52 minutes ago

A convoy of U.N. relief supplies was hit in renewed fighting Tuesday as it tried to enter the Palestinian refugee camp of Nahr el-Bared, a relief official said, adding that there may have been at least one casualty.

The official from the U.N. Relief and Works Agency said a pickup truck and a water tanker were caught between the lines of the Lebanese army and the militant Fatah Islam fighters and were hit as they entered the camp. . .

about 100 fighters, including militants from Saudi Arabia, Yemen and other Arab countries, and he has said he follows the ideology of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden. Among the militants killed in fighting Sunday was a man suspected in a plot to bomb trains in Germany last year. . .

Beirut security officials accuse Syria of backing Fatah Islam to disrupt Lebanon. . . .

The White House said it supports Saniora's efforts to deal with the fighting, and the State Department defended the Lebanese army, saying it was working in a "legitimate manner" against "provocations by violent extremists" in the camp.


 
I didnt know Bush had us in anything? Were we not attacked? I guess Roosevelt had us into Europe. Funny because now like back then Roosevelt was booed for trying to get us into the "European War". But after we were attacked at Pearl Harbor we demanded to get into the war. Anyway. I know why you are so upset about Bush but still what would you have us done?

I say if Lebenaon asks us for help we should lend a hand. How I dont know or to what extent. But if we shun them then that wont make for good relations in the future.
 
Bob - you're not the only one wondering about what value the UN is bringing to this issue. Read the last line . . .

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/010031.php
The Lebanese government has ordered its army to finish off the Fatah Islam terrorist group holed up in the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp on its northern coast. They want an end to the al-Qaeda affiliate before it has a chance to grow out of control, not unlike the problem they already have in the south with Hezbollah:
Artillery and machine gun fire echoed around a crowded Palestinian refugee camp Tuesday as the Lebanese government ordered the army to finish off the Fatah Islam militants holed up inside the refugee camp in the country's north. Artillery and machine gun fire echoed around a crowded Palestinian refugee camp Tuesday as the Lebanese government ordered the army to finish off the Fatah Islam militants holed up inside the refugee camp in the country's north.
The fighting — which resumed for a third straight day after a brief nighttime lull — reflected the government's determination to pursue the Islamic militants who staged attacks on Lebanese troops on Sunday and Monday, killing 29 soldiers. Some 20 militants have also been killed, as well as an undetermined number of civilians.
The Cabinet late Monday authorized the army to step up its campaign and "end the terrorist phenomenon that is alien to the values and nature of the Palestinian people," Information Minister Ghazi Aridi said.
Aridi overdoes it a bit in that statement. The terrorist phenomenon started with the Palestinian people, and Lebanon should know that better than most. They have conducted terrorist attacks since 1964, when they first formed the PLO under Yasser Arafat. Arafat got pushed into Lebanon and used the country as a base of terrorist operations for years, bringing the Israeli invasion and occupation until they finally flushed Arafat out of Beirut.
Still, Aridi needs to remain politically correct. Lebanon houses 400,000 Palestinian refugees in its UN camps, and they can get mighty restless. It's bad enough that they have to manage a terrorist occupation in the south, with Iranian and Syrian sponsorship of Hezbollah; they don't need another one in the north with AQ sponsorship.
The Siniora government has the right idea. One cannot negotiate for peaceful coexistence with terrorists. They need to eradicate this group before it spreads, a dynamic the Lebanese people have seen on a number of occasions now. If they have them trapped in Nahr el-Bared, they need to finish the job and wipe them out.
By the way, what happened to the UN in all of this? Nahr el-Bared is a UN refugee camp, and they're supposed to keep the inhabitants disarmed.
 
I didnt know Bush had us in anything? Anyway. I know why you are so upset about Bush but still what would you have us done?

Mike ,I don't give a damn if a president is Republican or Democrat . If a president is a good leader and does his best to serve the people and make America Strong and Proud ,that is what is important to me.
I personally have never seen a country more divided because of one man .
Its real simple to me Mike , I would have finished the 911 deal with Bin Laden first . Afghanistan is like a forgotten war . The Media is not suppose to talk about it or Bin Laden . I didn't say "We are going to smoke him out of his hole " Bush did .
I did not fly onto a Aircraft Carrier and start grandstanding and say "Mission Accomplished" on Iraq , Bush did .
I did not say "I am the War President" ,but I guess Bush is real proud of that accomplishment because he sure as hell said it .
All I'm saying is Lets finish one thing before jumping into another . Bush just can't seem to understand that .He won't even listen to his own advisors that he hired .
I do not know if you ever read much on Bush but he was a complete failure in private bussiness . Every break he got was through someone elses efforts and that includes the Baseball team he owned .

And Mike ,with all do respect my friend , I honestly do not think you know why I feel the way I do about little Georgie jr.

What I would give to have old Reagan back in office . He was a great man .

Sorry Bob , I did not mean to sideswipe your post .
 
Mike ,I don't give a damn if a president is Republican or Democrat . If a president is a good leader and does his best to serve the people and make America Strong and Proud ,that is what is important to me.
I personally have never seen a country more divided because of one man .

Ya, Bush is totally incompetant. It took him billions and years of war to divide the country.
All Clinton needed to do was use an intern as a humidor.
Can't get more divided than half and half.
 
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