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Not Seeing the "Value"

B

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Patron
For whatever reason, asking prices for used snowcats have taken a significant step higher. Sometimes the machines are in nice condition and/or a considerable amount of work has been done. But others are in the "You got to be kidding me" range, and I feel sorry for an inexperienced buyer who gets taken to the cleaners.

Here's a recent ksl.com listing:

classifieds.ksl.com

Snowcat

$60,000.00 Snowcat for sale in Kaysville, UT on KSL Classifieds. View a wide selection of UTVs Used (Utility Vehicles) and other great items on KSL Classifieds.
classifieds.ksl.com

"Reconditioned"? The pictures are generally poor and it looks like the exterior was spayed with truck bedliner. A photo of the data plate shows yellow paint, so apparently the color has been changed. The seller describes the condition as "Excellent - Like New". Sure it is...
 
BFT, I saw this listing last week and was tempted to start the discussion on it, but decided against it. I'm glad that you brought this up, as I think it is pretty concerning. FMV for the 1200 units seem to be in the 15-30K range these days depending on spec, based on what I've seen. I sure hope this isn't a case of someone trying to take advantage of an uninformed buyer. I'd like to think that anyone looking to buy a snowcat would at least do a tiny bit of research in order to come to the realization that this is a vastly overpriced machine.
 
Cidertom said:
Maybe it doesn't have an engine or transmission?
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are you referring to the "Nikon Effect"?

does seem to be all the current rage to get top dollar out of marginal equipment

fyi, IMHO, Nikson got a great tucker in the end and has a very dependable snow cat, and he did not over pay for what he has now...what he bought and the work he did, is the exception.
 
No kidding. All of that work and only run it a handful of times? Hands down the best 1202 out there, but . . .
 
sheep_mtn said:
Housing, used cars and trucks, toilet paper…..and now snowcats. The current markets for real estate, durable goods and consumer products are unsustainable.
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It's the same with tractors and heavy equipment. I'm doing a light restore on my 15 year old tractor and am expecting to sell it for close to what I paid for it based on the current market. It's all inflation though. Those 15 year old dollars aren't worth as much today.
 
Solrus said:
Is this reasonable, listed same time as above - https://classifieds.ksl.com/listing/66129730
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I saw that, too and thought the price was "aspirational". My favorite line in the listing was: "I am posting this with my separation point price. That means I will not sell this snowcat unless that price is met." Uh huh....

The seller says the original snowcat had "around 400 original hours" and it now has "custom designed grousers and 1/2" rock quarry belting using grade 8 hardware".

The "custom designed grousers" look a whole lot like the design of the "D dent" grousers Thiokol used on Sprytes before the 1200 series was introduced. Thiokol evidently thought the follow-on design was superior, so why would you want to go to the time, trouble and expense to make all new grousers of an old design. And, why would they need to be replaced at all on a machine with 400 hours?

Rock quarry belting, and 1/2" thick? Again, why? Much heavier and more resistant to flexing, which means it takes more power to turn the tracks. Grade 8 hardware sounds good, but in this application it's pretty much a waste of money. Grade 8 bolts have higher tensile strength than Grade 5, but to hold grousers to rubber belts you aren't using much clamping force at all.
 
Except for the one Tucker still being held in Protective Custody, I think we will hold off for awhile on any more Snow Cats coming to McCall. 😉😴😴😴
 
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The red Spryte looks to be painted with a product like Line-X. You see it on a couple SEMA builds these days. Very durable and resistant to scratches. I was going to use it on my 1644 but everyone I talked to said it was great in every color but white. It's not necessarily the cheap route if you have it professionally done. Agree though, if this cat, as well as couple others for sale lately that claim to have a lot of work done to them, was built to that kind of standard they are doing a very bad job of presenting it.

At least the 'Rusty' cat is well documented and one can vote for it, or not, with your dollar.

I suspect that the market is experiencing several factors at once here.

1. Popularity and money supply shifting the supply and demand equation. More demand, same supply.
2. Inflation, as a result of increasing the money supply by 40% or so. In every aspect of building, or rebuilding a cat.
3. Lack of knowledge. As in, I heard of a guy that sold his numbers matching, low miles, garage stored, rare optioned, hemi Cuda for a mil, so if I put the wheels back on the standard model one I have sitting in the back yard for the last fourty years, it must be worth almost as much.

Lucky for those who find forums, like myself, have a chance to read shared knowledge and shorten the learning curve. And brings one, as it apparently has VB, to the sixty four dollar question; does one add to their asset class here, thinking prices will continue to rise, or take profits thinking the risk reward ratio has gone south? 🤔
 
Anybody want a pretty nice Kristi KT3 for Christmas/December ($10K) in January for Oregon ($15K) in February /March for Sun Valley ($20K)???
 

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Having rebuilt a Bombi from the ground up……..is $33,000 for a custom 5 cab Br100 to much? If engine and transmission was rebuilt, full ”frame off” restoration, new tires, grousers with cleats, belts, sprockets, bearings, suspension, etc, etc….at least $10k to $15k in parts. What’s a beat up BR100 go for? I paid $5k for my Bombi before it was headed to the scrap yard. So $15k-$20k without modification to get it close to OEM for daily use. If we monetized our labor…..say $40/hr (what’s a body shop charge?)….and a good rebuild is 300-500 hrs (IMHO)….thats another $12,000. to $20,000. So without modification, that’s $27,000 to $40,000 to sell at break even with labor.

For those that don’t have an affinity to our “addiction”….looking only at the utilitarian usage of our vehicles (transport a family to a remote cabin)…..what are the equivalent alternatives?

I just hope the “headed to scrap yard” snow cats can still be found…..at reasonable prices.

Keep having fun!

Bob
 
Bobcatbob said:
Having rebuilt a Bombi from the ground up……..is $33,000 for a custom 5 cab Br100 to much? If engine and transmission was rebuilt, full ”frame off” restoration, new tires, grousers with cleats, belts, sprockets, bearings, suspension, etc, etc….at least $10k to $15k in parts. What’s a beat up BR100 go for? I paid $5k for my Bombi before it was headed to the scrap yard. So $15k-$20k without modification to get it close to OEM for daily use. If we monetized our labor…..say $40/hr (what’s a body shop charge?)….and a good rebuild is 300-500 hrs (IMHO)….thats another $12,000. to $20,000. So without modification, that’s $27,000 to $40,000 to sell at break even with labor.

For those that don’t have an affinity to our “addiction”….looking only at the utilitarian usage of our vehicles (transport a family to a remote cabin)…..what are the equivalent alternatives?

I just hope the “headed to scrap yard” snow cats can still be found…..at reasonable prices.

Keep having fun!

Bob
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Bob,

Respectfully, I didn't see anywhere in the FB link about a restoration. And with only 117 hours, the engine/transmission/rear differential should not need any major work. The seller says the cab is "factory", and looking at the seats, the vinyl looks in fine condition, but original as well.

It looks to me like the seller added some lights, painted it blue and did some maintenance. But for me anyway, there is no "wow factor".

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Bombis, but as I recall (and feel free to correct me) Bombardier made a Bombi, then a BR 100 and then a BR 100+. As I understand it the BR 100 came with a 1.6L engine and a manual transmission whereas the BR 100+ came with a larger 2.3L engine and an automatic. There were some cab changes over the years and the earlier ones had smaller windows and doors.This is listed as a 1995, which I think means it should have the nicer window and door setup, but it doesn't. The BR 100+, from what I understand, is the most desirable of the three, but this isn't a BR 100+.

Sorry, but I'm in the group that thinks this imachine s overpriced...and not by a little!
 
Hi Blackfoot

Concur, no rebuild and just a cosmetic/light refresh….it seems over valued for our group (hobbyist’s). I’m trying to rationalize why prices have skyrocketed, and for the needed mode of transport (remote winter access for a family)…..what options in this price range exist?
 
Bob,

Over the years I’ve found if you wait, you can find a decent snowcat at a reasonable price. But you have to be willing to wait, and you have to jump when the opportunity arises. This fall I noticed the number of used snowcats for sale was less than normal, and now we’re seeing more for sale, but at much higher asking prices.

I follow the general aviation market and prices for airplanes have skyrocketed. “Nice” airplanes are selling for a lot of money. By “nice” I’m saying airplanes that have been well maintained, have no damage history, and have been upgraded with desirable features. Currently, I’m told many sales are happening behind the scenes before airplanes are even listed for sale. In some cases, it’s word of mouth, and in others brokers are calling people they know own a particular model of airplane to see if they might sell.

Traditionally, the smart way to buy a used airplane has been to have a thorough pre-buy inspection done by the buyer’s choice of mechanic (at his expense). The cost to fix any discrepancies that are considered airworthy are then negotiated between buyer and seller. But the current market is so overheated that many buyers are making offers without the pre-buy inspection contingency... because they know the seller will very likely get another offer very soon without that pre-buy requirement. It’s a virtual certainty many buyers are going to learn an expensive lesson when their newly purchased airplane needs an annual inspection... and a bunch of costly issues come up.

At this point I’m expecting a return to historical pricing norms for snowcats and airplanes, but when that will happen... I don’t have a clue.

But it seems just about everything is more expensive. I just received a real estate market snapshot for my neighborhood. Comparing 2021 to 2020, the average price per square foot rose 28.5 percent and the average time on the market for the homes sold dropped from 36 days to 9. It seems, well... crazy.
 
I don’t see the value either but it’s definitely a sellers market as we speak.

Funny thing is last week the Fed announced they are doubling the QE tapper, this will add around 200bps to rates and their forecast for six rate hikes into 2023 will end the housing bubble. So only a matter of time before buyers are back to getting decent deals.
 
Blackfoot Tucker said:
Over the years I’ve found if you wait, you can find a decent snowcat at a reasonable price. But you have to be willing to wait, and you have to jump when the opportunity arises.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this premise. I've only purchased two snowcats, and I consider myself to have been quite lucky both times. In both deals I worked with very reasonable, fair and honest private party sellers. And in both cases I was the first person to respond to their ads, which allowed me the privilege of being the first to inspect the machines and ultimately purchase them. Also in both cases, the pricing was very fair and reasonable in my opinion (unlike some of the examples we are seeing today). "Jump when the opportunity arises" couldn't be more important in my mind.
 
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As others have stated, be patient and be ready. Cash is king and travel will be required for a good deal. Just last week I saw a Spryte on craigslist in Colorado. Can't find it now which is odd because the price was crazy. It was clearly a parts machine that someone thought they were going to restore and then gave up. Missing the doors, rough condition and the wrong width OC-12 not installed. Still asking $10,000. Makes my current Spryte project a steal. Complete, needing some love, full cab for less than that.

My Tucker was purchased about 10 years ago for some real money, but a great runner and seemed like a good deal. Still ended up putting a ton of time and about $10k into the tracks and track carriers. Its worth a ton now but if I added up the time and effort the price would be about right.

Most of the cats I am seeing lately are skipping the important step of doing the required work and replacing the needed parts. Its just buy a project, get it running and then price it like all the real work has been done.
 
HankScorpio said:
Not sure how to screenshot to make this last beyond the listing but here is another one. Spryte 1200c, $12K, needs everything.
denver.craigslist.org

Thiokol spryte 1200c snowcat - atvs, utvs, snowmobiles - by owner -...

For sale 1200 standard track snow cat under 102 inch's wide with tracks 300 ci ford six runs good needs to be rewired c6 auto transmission and oc12 differential this is a project it has rust that...
denver.craigslist.org
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The owner listed this on the forum early today.
 
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