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Why are we in Iraq?

jdwilson44

New member
Why Are We In Iraq?


[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]by Michael S. Rozeff[/FONT][/FONT]
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by Michael S. Rozeff
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Defeat in Iraq
Have the President and his men accomplished their objectives in Iraq? Saddam Hussein is no longer a threat to Saudi Arabia or the region. However, since he was contained before the war, little has been gained on that score. Oil is no more secure than before. In fact, Iran threatens to disrupt supply. Oil prices have risen sharply. The U.S. has not yet restored Iraq's oil production, and issues relating to restoring the oil infrastructure and adjudicating old oil contracts remain unresolved.

Iran has become a larger and bolder threat to other countries in the region, including Saudi Arabia. It has a higher degree of influence over some factions in Iraq. Iran’s oil revenues are up. Iraq’s economy is in tatters. The U.S. is tied down in Iraq, and U.S. forces are vulnerable to attack. The shape of political things to come in Iraq is highly uncertain. To an unknown extent, the U.S. has strengthened the hand of Muslim jihadists although al-Qaeda will be little welcomed in Iraq once the U.S. withdraws. None of this was in the Iraq war blueprint.

Iraq is not a threat to Israel at present, but it was not a severe threat to Israel before the war began. Iran is now a greater threat, but Israel’s nuclear weapons deter Iran.
Democracy was a tertiary objective, but we can’t take the Bush administration seriously about this one. Assuming this was important and is supposed to mean a friendly government with a parliament, periodic elections, parties, campaigns, and all the standard democratic socialist bells and whistles, this hasn’t happened. The country is having a civil war.

The scorecard on Iraq is one-sided. America’s losses far exceed the gains. It is not clear that the liberated Iraqi people, those still alive and uninjured, have gained. The Kurds may have gained for now, but there is no telling how long that will last. On Bush’s own terms, the Iraq War was a blunder. America has suffered a setback, a large frustration, in other words a defeat, although not a classic battlefield defeat. The U.S. has weakened itself and spent precious blood, bodies, energy, moral capital, and wealth on a useless war. By contrast, bin Laden can always point to Iraq as a recruitment tool. With limited resources, he managed to draw the U.S. onto an Arab battleground and become tied down while he and his cohorts remain at large.
Invading Iraq was a mistake. Why did President Bush invade Iraq? More broadly, why are we involved with Iraq at all? Why aren’t Congress and the Executive exiting the morass which is Iraq? Vice-President Cheney (8/29/06) says that withdrawing from Iraq would be "a ruinous blow to the future security of the United States." How absurd to suppose that a country with our might would be ruined by leaving Iraq! We will actually be strengthened. Why are they steering toward war against Iran? Answer why we are in Iraq and we answer these questions too.


Curtail the empire
Despite Iraq, our rulers and their supporters are taking the country toward more war. The Bush administration is certain that it’s doing the right thing. It isn’t changing direction. It will keep beating our heads against the wall until we collapse. Iraq hasn’t been a wakeup call.

Surrounding the administration, single-minded warmongers are continually beating the drums for war. Statement after statement, column after column, writer after writer encourages open and enlarged warfare with Iran. More and more columns fatalistically describe the coming hostilities as if they are a foregone conclusion. In fact, this next war has already passed through preliminary stages of sanctions, threats, overflights, planning, and some on-the-ground reconnaissance. In fact, Iran may become overconfident and take one too many risks that ignites war.

William Kristol says "We have to stop them [Iran] from getting nuclear weapons." He’s so sure that an Iran with nuclear weapons means the end of the world (or Israel or Western civilization) that he thinks we must stop them soon, before they develop such weapons. He discounts nuclear deterrence and Iran’s wish to survive. He discounts further consolidating Muslims in a long-lasting jihad against the West. He discounts negotiation. He discounts Iran’s internal politics. Kristol and company have no doubt on the matter. They are prepared to attack Iran pre-emptively.

Should we bank on any seer who can see only one possible future state of the world and who leaves no room for doubt or error in his forecasts? Should we bank on a pack of leaders that have followed the Kristol line before? The Bush policies have led us to frustration, large losses, continual bleeding, and strengthening of our foes. They have reduced America’s moral stature, alienated our friends, blocked better ways of handling our problems, created the prospect of endless war, and weakened whatever beneficial influence Americans exercise in the world. Should we heed these advocates of failure again? Of course not. But changing administrations will not solve our basic problem. When we understand why we are in Iraq, we will see that more failure is in the cards unless we make a major change in course. We have to do what Great Britain, France, and other countries have done. We have to curtail our empire.


Error
Why are American armed forces in Iraq? There are two important reasons: error and empire. Although oil is an important focal element, it proxies for business interests in general, and they proxy for the American system extended under the umbrella of American control and protection, that is, empire. America didn’t fight the Spanish-American War, World War I, or the Vietnam War for oil. If we are to understand the Iraq War as part of a longstanding process, oil cannot provide the explanation.
The error was two-fold. It is common knowledge that the supposed benefits of the war, such as removing weapons of mass destruction, decreasing terrorism, making the U.S. more secure, installing a functioning democracy, etc. have not materialized. They need no discussion. The Bush team underestimated the war’s costs and difficulties, and it overestimated the benefits. The Bush team thought that the war could be won easily, that they could install a friendly government easily, and that they could exit Iraq rather quickly and go on to their next field exercise in reconstructing the world.
The evidence supporting the latter assertion is overwhelming. Here are a few examples. Ken Adelman (2/13/02) said: "I believe demolishing Hussein’s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk." Donald Rumsfeld (11/15/02): "Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn’t going to last any longer than that." On 1/10/03, Rumsfeld endorsed an estimate of "something under $50 billion for the cost." On 5/16/03, Cheney said: "My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators...I think it will go relatively quickly...[in] weeks rather than months." Richard Perle (3/25/03 said "...this will be a short war." Paul Wolfowitz on 3/27/03 thought that Iraq’s oil revenues "can finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon." George Bush on 7/2/03 said: "There are some who feel like – that the conditions are such that they can attack us there [Iraq]. My answer is, bring 'em on! We've got the force necessary to deal with the security situation." Rumsfeld three weeks later said "I don’t do quagmires."

Rumsfeld didn’t heed his generals (a number of whom have publicly criticized him). He thought the war could be won with a minimum of armed forces on the ground. In a way, he was correct if war means removing the opponent’s conventional armed forces. But the war didn’t stop after that was accomplished. It mutated into fourth-generation warfare. At present, 4 years later, Rumsfeld is distancing himself from Iraq. He recently stated: "What is important is for the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi government, ultimately, to deal with this problem." Had he and the administration believed this 4 years ago, the U.S. would never have invaded Iraq. Also backtracking, he recently claimed that he "never painted a rosy picture" about Iraq.
Why were these errors committed? We should not focus too greatly on Rumsfeld or the Bush team because America has in the past made similar large errors in going to war. The Spanish-American War, World War I, and Vietnam are examples. And World War I led to World War II. The causes go deeper than any single man, set of men, or administration.

The Bush team had ample university and bureaucratic experience but its actual collective experience of war was nil. Like most Americans, they were both insulated from and inured to the horrors of war. On paper, they were highly educated. But college educations that teach students confused philosophy, confused history, confused modes of thought, and contradictory doctrines can’t promote sound analysis. A number of them (like Rumsfeld, Rice, Feith, and Wolfowitz) made their way through politics and policy areas. They were not experts on military science or the realities of war. Neither were they experts on the Middle East. Past administrations show similar faults.

We then need to ask why they failed to get better information, why they were so sure of themselves, why Congress did not hold them to account, why the media failed to criticize them or even urged them on, etc. We know that the administration conducted an effective propaganda campaign that influenced both the public and Congress. That campaign rendered criticism ineffective. We know that important elements of the press often push for war. There is a deeper and more general explanation. Those who come to power do so through manipulative skills that breed arrogance and an over-estimation of their capacities and place in the world. Success at the game of power breeds hubris. Hubris, arrogance, and a know-it-all attitude appear in other administrations of the past.

Economics teaches us that as the penalty for overconfidence imposed on our rulers declines, they indulge in more of it. As the checks and balances of American government weakened from 1787 onwards, the rulers in Washington in all branches of government became more and more insulated from voting sanctions. Impeachment and other tools proved ineffective. The rulers learned how to control voters. They displayed more arrogance and hubris in everything they did. Today, when policies fail, their proponents often rationalize and move on to nice jobs elsewhere. Some with pangs of conscience re-examine their lives and make money selling books. Almost none look their mistakes in the face, speak out, and behave honorably while they are still in office.

In sum, the Iraq War is a big blunder committed by our boastful rulers in our Executive Branch who didn’t know any better. Our institutional system of education and state encourages know-nothing and arrogant power-seekers to gain office and, once in office, it lets them behave overconfidently (underestimating costs and overestimating benefits), commit costly errors, and get away with them.

None of these factors contributing to error have changed. Therefore, we can expect more such costly errors in the future. We can’t predict whether they will crop up in Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Somalia, Colombia, or Thailand, etc. or when they will occur. We can expect some learning to occur and some attempts to diminish error, but they will typically be superficial. We can expect some periods of relative calm, such as 1975–1990. But even during these periods, there will be smaller episodes and there will be blunders occurring that set the stage for subsequent larger errors of war.


Oil
Oil is actually a special case of business interests in general which in turn is a special case of the American system, that is, empire. Paul Wolfowitz is a key person, and in my opinion is the key person, other than President Bush, in understanding why we are in Iraq. He epitomizes a man dedicated to the American empire. Wolfowitz’s career shows how to attain unelected political power. Any analysis of his public statements from 2000 onwards will show that he strongly urged the administration on at every opportunity, and he got his way. What he has promoted and why he has promoted it therefore provide clues as to why the U.S. invaded Iraq.

Wolfowitz’s public record exemplifies the surface reasons for why we are in Iraq. The main reason is a chimera known as secure oil. Since Franklin Roosevelt, this has meant protecting Saudi Arabia. At one time it meant installing the Shah of Iran. Later it meant stopping Iraq from going into Kuwait, a threat to Saudi Arabia. Still later, it has meant removing Saddam Hussein altogether for fear he would become a threat. A secondary or particularistic reason is Israeli security. An even less robust reason is to install democracies rather than authoritarian regimes, but Wolfowitz’s commitment to this has been variable as in the case of his tenure in Indonesia.

In addition, Wolfowitz is a key figure in pushing for pre-emptive and unilateral American action. How did it come about that the U.S. invaded Iraq without their having invaded us or anyone around them? That is, how did the U.S. cross the moral Rubicon to pre-emptive war? The U.S. has intervened numerous times in the past, usually when there has been a pretext occurring in a foreign land. Those interventions were virtually pre-emptive. In this case, the Bush administration created a package of seeming threats and past offenses that substituted for a current pretext. Over and over again, it cited Saddam’s past crimes and current threats. The U.N. provided some cover. In the minds of many, these became tantamount to a current pretext for war. If Bush decides to make war on Iran, he will repeat this performance.

Proponents of American empire and interests say that secure oil is their aim. The emphasis should be on the word secure. It means that America wants not only oil. It also wants political control, as in other parts of the world where oil is not a concern. Oil and political control happen to overlap in the Middle East.

America does not require political control in order to buy oil. The Russian empire never conquered the Middle East any more than the American empire has or can. If it tried, it would run into the same kinds of problems we have. If America withdraws, the oil in all probability will remain in the hands of Arab countries and Iran. They may fight with one another and rearrange their borders. This is not important. They will still have to sell their oil if they want revenue, and we and others are the market. We do not need literally to control the governments of the Middle East in order to have secure oil. There are a hundred other countries smaller than we are that buy oil and don’t care who runs the Middle East. Why do we? The answer is that there is a large underlying factor partly associated with oil but also partly independent of it. That factor is empire.


Why empire?
Again, Wolfowitz can be taken as a representative figure because his world view reflects the standard model of American empire. His career embodies the military and economic sides of empire. He views the globe in terms of American "interests." He takes American bases, economic and military aid, currency manipulations, debt packages, and pressures as standard operating procedures. In the earlier part of his career, he assumed that American military interventions were the norm and required no further justification than the proclamation of American interests at stake. Now at the World Bank, he assumes that economic aid requires no justification. Wolfowitz often expresses idealistic views and seeks to decrease corruption in governments who receive World Bank aid. But he is still working within the paternalistic assumption of American empire that the World Bank and like institutions should create economic development across the globe. He is a Republican now applying Democrat ideas, like those of the War on Poverty, on an international scale. Like all politicians, he recounts the errors of the past and promises to throw more money at problems in better ways. The compassionate conservative is simply a liberal democrat. Indeed, in terms of their means of operating, the conservative is a liberal. Only their ends differ.

If Wolfowitz stands for American empire, then the deeper cause of America being in Iraq is American empire. The American empire is pushing not only into the Middle East but also into Central Asia. Why is there an American empire? If we knew the answer, we’d understand better why we are at war in Iraq. The Iraq War is a blunder, but the really central question is why we are seeking to dominate the Middle East, period. The important fact is that we were in up to our eyeballs in the Middle East before invading Iraq. Explaining that fact is what is critical.

The literature on explaining empires is large. We need to look there for possible answers as to why we are in Iraq. Joseph Stromberg shows one direction that such inquiry can take. He explains and illustrates the basic idea that interest groups, such as corporate or big business (including banking) interests, use the state to further foreign economic interests. The evidence consistent with this hypothesis is voluminous. Foreign expansion and empire are almost always accompanied by expansion of business interests.

Many ancient empires surely were a function of the economics of conquest as they gained slaves, commodities, resources, fighting power, and taxes. But is this the entire story? Correlation neither proves causation nor excludes other causes operating side by side. Might not emperors, being men of power, be attuned to a good many non-economic factors? Empire-builders have more than business interests as their motivations. Dick Cheney may have had Halliburton’s interests at heart, but it is doubtful that other members of the Bush team had this motive or only this motive. Emperors may have religious or ideological reasons for expanding. They may wish to encase their core regions with buffer zones of regions that would bear attacks. They may wish to attain natural geographical boundaries that are more defensible. They may wish to forestall competing empires from expanding at their periphery. They may wish to satisfy various internal constituencies. They may wish to satisfy their own yearnings to be as Gods.

The drive for expansion of the United States is strong because several elements are acting hand in hand. Our government is responsive or captured by a variety of interest groups and lobbies. The ideology of free markets (even if they do not actually exist) works hand in glove with businesses seeking to expand securely into new markets. Americans are semi-religiously and sometimes religiously trying to convert the world. Americans are a most insecure people who, from the inception of the country to now, persistently expanded the country’s reach in order to achieve security (see Albert K. Weinberg’s Manifest Destiny). Americans want to be number one and think they are number one. This is their God-substitute. When neoconservatives argue that America is the only superpower and that it should institute benevolent global hegemony, we are hearing a rhetoric that combines many of these long-running historical themes.
Geopolitical factors and rivalries, basically turf battles, can’t be overlooked in understanding empires. The world appears as a large city with a few large land areas separated by big lakes. The U.S. wants to control the Middle East rather than have someone else control it, be it Russia, a revived Persian empire, or a Shia empire. It is not clear what the source of this territorial imperative is or whether it makes sense. America seems to have lived quite well without it between 1620 and 1945 or so. Accident may play a role. The U.S. almost inadvertently, haphazardly, and unthinkingly took over old British interests just as it took over old French interests in Southeast Asia. But it did take them over and we must assume that FDR, Truman, and succeeding presidents were guided by some general notions that these expansionary moves benefited the U.S. In the geopolitical view, if Iran, for example, moves too strongly in tandem with Venezuela, which is an American interest that lies just across the lake, then sooner or later, America will try to overthrow Chavez.


Conclusion
We are in Iraq because of empire. We have armed forces in Iraq because of error. We have empire because we have a runaway state. In the long run, which sometimes is not that long, empire is seen to be an error. It is an error built upon the error of having a state. We have a state because of hubris, which is an excessive pride in which we boastfully compare ourselves to God or, in earlier days, to other deities. Hubris is associated with hamartia by which Aristotle meant a tragic flaw, an error in judgment, or a character defect that results in a hero’s downfall. America and Americans have hubris and hamartia. We need humility. We can’t avoid future Iraqs, future losses, and the fall of the American empire until we rein in the American state. We can’t rein in the American state until we rein in ourselves.


August 30, 2006
Michael S. Rozeff [send him mail] is the Louis M. Jacobs Professor of Finance at University at Buffalo.
Copyright © 2006 LewRockwell.com
 
OkeeDon said:
The better question is why the people who made this colossal mistake have not been removed from power.

When the American voters decide to remove their power, it will be removed. Not before. Bush won his second term and by law he is finished at the end of this one, as you know. Nothing can change the past, and Bush is determined to ride it out in Iraq, right or wrong.

Personally, I think we should have left Saddam in power because he had the ability to control all the Islamo-Fascits that are now running loose, and who will turn Iraq into a theocracy as soon as we pull out. A few well placed smart bombs here and there to keep him in line from time to time might have sufficed. But, that's not the case, so we have to find an acceptable exit strategy. This will fall to the president that follows Bush. In the mean time, hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?
 
Cityboy said:
...In the mean time, hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?
Yeah, except in my case, it was not hindsight. I was strongly against the invasion before it ever happened. The reason you cited was one of mine; I'd be happy to go into all of them if anyone is interested.

It was one of the few things that my wife and I agreed on politically. She's a steady Republican but is much more a blind faith believer that "the President knows things we don't know so the President is always right." But, in this case, she was appalled that we attacked preemptively; she felt it was the wrong thing for America to do. And, she said so before we did it.

So, hindsight is not the case inour household, even though we usually have differing opinions.

Cityboy said:
Bush won his second term and by law he is finished at the end of this one...
The right persecuted, impeached and attempted to remove a President from office for a far less transgression than this President has permitted to happen to our soldiers, our budget and more Iraqis than Saddam killed. If the American public is too brainless to use their vote, he should have been impeached.
 
Well I was not in favor of going in, and I'm not sure I was overwhelmingly against it either. . . but now that we are there we have the responsibility of leaving it in a stable state when we leave. There is a lot of sectarian violence, not what I would call a civil war, but not stable either. Iran would love for a civil war to break out and, I'm sure, is trying to evoke one. It is now in the best interests of THE WORLD to prevent a civil war, and to prevent Iran from influencing Iraq's internal policy.

The reality is that most of the Muslim nations are scared to death of the fundamentalists in Iran and if Iran can take control of Iraq then a new power, capable of tremendous economic clout, and run by a madman will form a true evil dictatorship on par with Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot. Moderate nations like Quatar, Lebanon, Egypt, Barhain, Kuwait and even Turkey and Saudi Arabia will be seriously threatened. A large portion of the world's oil supply will be held captive, and I would suggest that we will see a true world war develop.

Iran is a far bigger threat than Korea. Iran wants to topple Iraq, and very likely would have attempted it as soon as Saddam Hussein died of natural causes had we not taken him out. I'm not justifying why we went in, I can't really do that. What I am saying is that like it or not, we are there and because of world events revolving around Iran, we have to stay until there is a stable and sustainable free nation called Iraq.
 
The ironic thing is that there was an anti-Iran, Sunni-based, secular government in place in Iraq. Our meddling has produced a Shiite-dominated (same as Iran) government deeply influenced by Iran or, as you suggest, afraid to be anti-Iran. Plus, most of the outside agitators are from Iran.

I used to believe. like you, that once we were committed to Iraq, we were pretty much tied down there until it was stable. Now, I believe that our presence is the root cause of the current instability and the sooner we leave, the better it will be for Iraqis.

Of course, if we leave it the way it is now, we will not have accomplished any of the goals that were originally described. However, I have come to believe that we will not accomplish any of them anyway, regardless of what we do, so it would be better to get out before any more of our troops are killed. THIS is truly "supporting our troops.", as is becoming increasingly cleat the more they are killed and wounded.

Once we are out of there, taking away the incentive for fundamentalist Muslims to try to disrupt us, we can quietly take other tacks like working behind the scenes with the few "friends" we have in the area. It will be costly, because they will only help us if there is something in it for them, but it should be cheaper than what we are doing.

Mark my words, this is what will happen eventually, and we might as well do it now as later when more have died and more dollars are wasted.

This is the same type of predictions I was making before we ever went in, although with a lot more detail. I was right then, and I'll bet I'm right, now.
 
Ok were there ! Let's not leave the people that we sent over there down, support them and when it all over then we can point fingers ! Let finish what has been started this time, we are at war and shit happens. 2 more kids from Wisconsin this week and I mean kids 21 years old. Ask there family and friends if it's worth it. I am getting sick off all cut and run shit that I hear.
I say let are troops alone for 2 months, no news people to report and get in the way and let them do their jobs.It may be different :confused2:
 
Mankind lover war, we have been at war for a long time. Generation after generation.
When will it stop Maybe after one race has findly destoryed another, The said part of it is We all know what we have to do for world peace, But it is by far easer to make war then peace, To make peace you will have to use your brain to make war ????????????????
 
Cut and run? You have a lot of nerve. What's your suggestion, "Stay the course?" That policy has gotten just about more kids killed than the terrorists killed in 9/11, and has gotten more Iraqis killed than Saddam did. That's sick!

Cut and run! Is that what you call it? Every day we stay there is making the situation worse. You want two more months? What is the death rate, about 2 per day? That's 120 more kids whose blood will be on your hands.

And, for what? We've already been in Iraq longer than any other war in America's history except for Vietnam, and we're well on the way towards duplicating that colossal mistake.

Cut and run? I suppose you won't be satisfied until we spend another 18 years and 58,000 men, and then pull out with our tails between our legs.

Cut and run? The same bullshit was heard when we protested the Vietnam war. We were right then, and we're right now.

Go ahead, stay the course. Run the ship of state directly into the rocks.

Dumb.
 
OkeeDon said:
Cut and run? You have a lot of nerve. What's your suggestion, "Stay the course?" That policy has gotten just about more kids killed than the terrorists killed in 9/11, and has gotten more Iraqis killed than Saddam did. That's sick!
Cut and run! Is that what you call it? Every day we stay there is making the situation worse. You want two more months? What is the death rate, about 2 per day? That's 120 more kids whose blood will be on your hands.

And, for what? We've already been in Iraq longer than any other war in America's history except for Vietnam, and we're well on the way towards duplicating that colossal mistake.

Cut and run? I suppose you won't be satisfied until we spend another 18 years and 58,000 men, and then pull out with our tails between our legs.

Cut and run? The same bullshit was heard when we protested the Vietnam war. We were right then, and we're right now.
Go ahead, stay the course. Run the ship of state directly into the rocks.

Dumb.


Don, I've tried to avoid comenting on these posts out of respect for you(and the fact that we will not agree).... The problem is that you are still spouting the same arrogant bullshit that you did in the past... You are really good at stating that you are right and the rest of us(and the country are wrong)..

The problem is that Vietnam and Iraq are becoming more and more similar because of people like you.. Vietnam went to shit because of the weak underbelly that spit on our troops when they came home and protested the conflict throughout... This war now is going the same way because of the same quality of people that do nothing but undermine the effort and point fingers at our country and cliam they know better because they are so much smarter than everyone else(but they "support the troopt" this time:whistle: ).. The curent administration is walking on eggshells because of our own people(American left) as well as the other countries that we must appease,rather than kicking ass and getting it over with.. Thanks.:thumb: :whistle:

I have made the statement before (and like you believe, I was right then and will continue to be right) that we are loosing our troops and possibly the fight because of the weak Democratic element and their political movement to win in '08 by slandering anyone and everything to do with the Republican party..(in the end, they are responsible for the length of the war and the majority of dead soldiers)..They do not care about Iraq, or our troops, plain and simple... All they care about is winning the election.. The Bush administration has eventually followed through on several Democratic veiws(including going to Iraq in the first place) only to be turned on and blasted for it.. I still dont totally agree with the Republicans or Bush, but I am very thankfull that they are in power, concidering the alternatives..
 
HGM said:
Don, I've tried to avoid comenting on these posts out of respect for you(and the fact that we will not agree).... The problem is that you are still spouting the same arrogant bullshit that you did in the past... You are really good at stating that you are right and the rest of us(and the country are wrong)..

The problem is that Vietnam and Iraq are becoming more and more similar because of people like you.. Vietnam went to shit because of the weak underbelly that spit on our troops when they came home and protested the conflict throughout... This war now is going the same way because of the same quality of people that do nothing but undermine the effort and point fingers at our country and cliam they know better because they are so much smarter than everyone else(but they "support the troopt" this time:whistle: ).. The curent administration is walking on eggshells because of our own people(American left) as well as the other countries that we must appease,rather than kicking ass and getting it over with.. Thanks.:thumb: :whistle:

I have made the statement before (and like you believe, I was right then and will continue to be right) that we are loosing our troops and possibly the fight because of the weak Democratic element and their political movement to win in '08 by slandering anyone and everything to do with the Republican party..(in the end, they are responsible for the length of the war and the majority of dead soldiers)..They do not care about Iraq, or our troops, plain and simple... All they care about is winning the election.. The Bush administration has eventually followed through on several Democratic veiws(including going to Iraq in the first place) only to be turned on and blasted for it.. I still dont totally agree with the Republicans or Bush, but I am very thankfull that they are in power, concidering the alternatives..

Ditto ..................... Here we go again...........throw out the PC driven element and politicians and this chit is over quick. Sorry for my hillbilly mentality but the only way to do this is "Kick Ass and clean up"
 
HGM said:
Don, I've tried to avoid comenting on these posts out of respect for you(and the fact that we will not agree).... The problem is that you are still spouting the same arrogant bullshit that you did in the past... You are really good at stating that you are right and the rest of us(and the country are wrong).
You know, you're right. It is arrogant (although hardly bullshit). But, there's nothing I can do about that. The truth is what the truth is. I can't help it that being right is arrogant.

Let's look at the history. It has nothing to do with political parties. Vietnam was largely the creation of Democrats. While others played minor roles, it was LBJ who largely screwed up. In his case, as in the present case, it was because he was too dumb to see that his "people" (advisors, members of the administration, the military) had set him up. The only difference is that this time, the military actually tried to warn Bush, while they were complicit in Vietnam.

History has written. The Gulf of Tonkin "attack" that incited LBJ to raise our bid so high never happened. McNamara and other leading officials from the time have admitted that at the very least, the entire thing was a "mistake". I was strongly against our presence in Vietnam from the very beginning. History has proven me right. We should never have been there. It doesn't matter how we fought it; we would never have had to make those decision if we had never gone in the first place. If someone had listened to people like me, we would have been out of their 15 years and 50,000 deaths sooner.

Don't try to put the blood of those good men and women on my hands. I never argued for pussyfooting around in the war. I said, "We should never have been here. Get out. OUT! Not fool around."

The same thing is true of Iraq. I said we should not have been there. I say we should get out. OUT! NOW! That is not pussyfooting around and talking about appeasement. It is admitting a horrible mistake and correcting it! If they are pulling their punches, that's not myu fault. It's the fault of the people YOU helped elect, and who should have been removed from office because of their incompetence.

WAs I right again? It's only a little more than 3 years, but already history is proving it so. Saddam was contained, we had overflight security on him, he wasn't going to cause any harm outside his country, and whatever he did inside his country was no worse than dozens of others are doing at this very moment. It didn't matter whether he had so-called WMD or not; he couldn't use it if he did. He was no help to the terrorists; Al Queda and bin Laden considered him part of the problem, not a solution. Remember, they are basically religious fanatics and he was secular (that means he ruled by man's laws, not by "God's" laws). It has been admitted by this administration that there was no link between Iraq and terrorists (except by Cheney, and he's probably the REAL problem. What an asswipe).

You and the rest of the right wing nuts on this forum are just like the Bush administration -- too afraid of appearing unmanly if you admit you made a mistake.
 
This "let's kick some butt" thing - who should we kill? Isn't that the problem that this is some guerilla warfare that has been going on in that region for decades and the enemy isn't facing you in uniformed columns. Why wasn't there a good butt-kicking in Afghanistan against the perpetrator of 9-11? Is the solution really to send over some nukes and take out Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. Oh, and Libya, and Lebanon? All because there was supposedly WMD in Iraq? Nice.
 
beds said:
This "let's kick some butt" thing - who should we kill? Isn't that the problem that this is some guerilla warfare that has been going on in that region for decades and the enemy isn't facing you in uniformed columns. Why wasn't there a good butt-kicking in Afghanistan against the perpetrator of 9-11? Is the solution really to send over some nukes and take out Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. Oh, and Libya, and Lebanon? All because there was supposedly WMD in Iraq? Nice.

Do it like Saddam did it, just not prejudental. ............. duh. But that wouldn't be PC!

Set extreme example publicly, they understand that!
 
Again, as we have all conversed about before... I feel something needed to be done, I didnt feel too good about going over there because it most certainly would open a much larger can of worms than we really wanted to... But, I do believe that Saddam was out of control.. Iran is next, yes we do need to go in there as well... What most of the left are misunderstanding is that its not a war against Saddam, but the mentality that they(radical musslims) are entitled to this world and we are the maggots contaminating it.. I find it hard to believe that anyone can blatantly deny that Saddam was supplying terrorist activity.. But maybe thats a personal opinion.. The whole region is volitile and in need of help and it will not go away if we get out.. Dont get me wrong, I would love it if we could get out and bring all of our troops home today.. We could live life happily ever after.. But, outside the fairtale world, this will not work.. They will just take a little more time to regroup and attack us again.. They have been fighting for many generations, another couple years will not matter.. I will predict after the '08 election, when some folks get their wish and replace this president with another, we will see more attacks.. I hate to say it, but I can see it plain as day..

I guess part of my problem with the topic is that so many are against the war, but the only answers I have seen as to how they would have handled a dictator like Saddam blatantly ignoring wepons inspection, are to leave them alone.. Everyone believed he had WMDs because of this action, not just Bush.. He is the fall guy... So, what should have been done? What would you have done if you were the man making the decision of how to handle a man in charge of a country that was known to commit mass murder by using WMDs, denying he still had them but wouldnt allow inspectors to prove it? Agree or not, hindsight cannot change history, we need to stay untill its stable in the region(may never happen, but we cannot leave).. The Middle East has always been a time bomb... I'm not smart enough to provide an answer to how we can remedy the situation, but its not a macho kick telling me that we cannot pull out.. Leaving would be admiting that they were right and allowing them to go about life the way it was before we came in, it will get much worse and we would become thier bitches..
 
Big Dog said:
Do it like Saddam did it, just not prejudental. ............. duh. But that wouldn't be PC!

Set extreme example publicly, they understand that!
You're right, I certainly wouldn't want to be prejudental. But, what does setting an extreme example mean? What does "Do it like Saddam" mean?

It means that you are lowering yourself to the same level of behavior as Saddam! There is no other possible explanation. If you do what he did, you are just as bad, and cannot be any better, than he was.

I'm sure not PC. I don't drive a Volvo or drink white wine or eat quiche or like Hollywood stars. I think spending is out of control and I wish there was no need for abortions. But, I THINK! I try to figure out what the end result will be before I use a gun -- or whatever it is you guys substitute for a penis or a brain.
 
Anyone that thinks that turning your cheek to the problem will isolate you from the problem is setting themselves up for major disappointment. I'm thankful Bush is at least addressing the issues instead of burying his head even though mistakes have been made. He was saddled with these burdens and dare I say, I fear the steps Kerry, Kennedy or Clinton would have taken or not have taken!
 
OkeeDon said:
We've already been in Iraq longer than any other war in America's history except for Vietnam
Except (of course)
The American Revolution
The Civil War
WW II
 
OkeeDon said:
You're right, I certainly wouldn't want to be prejudental. But, what does setting an extreme example mean? What does "Do it like Saddam" mean?

It means that you are lowering yourself to the same level of behavior as Saddam! There is no other possible explanation. If you do what he did, you are just as bad, and cannot be any better, than he was.
I'm sure not PC. I don't drive a Volvo or drink white wine or eat quiche or like Hollywood stars. I think spending is out of control and I wish there was no need for abortions. But, I THINK! I try to figure out what the end result will be before I use a gun -- or whatever it is you guys substitute for a penis or a brain.
Don,

It's what they understand, it would only be doing what they deem acceptable. Your the one judging us by stating "lowering yourself".
They don't see it as lowering themselves ................... :pat:

Do as they do to make change ................ We'd probably be accepted more by doing so!
 
ALLEN PARSONS said:
When will it stop ... We all know what we have to do for world peace
BigDog said:
Anyone that thinks that turning your cheek to the problem will isolate you from the problem is setting themselves up for major disappointment.
I'm not picking on ALLEN but I'd like to ask what we have to do to attain world peace? Seriously I have no clue. And BigDog posted what to me now seems obvious. I think nations like Iceland, or Greenland can stay out of most conflicts based on their locations, but even those nations will ultimately face problems from Islamofacists if the moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc are subjegated by the Islamofacist rule.
 
HGM said:
...we need to stay untill its stable in the region(may never happen, but we cannot leave)...
If that's the case, then we are doomed, because we cannot afford to stay, either in terms of men or money. We will bankrupt ourselves. We are already the largest debtor nation in history, to the Saudis and Chinese, who are loaning us the money to make up the deficits caused by the insane war policies and insane tax cuts and insane oil policies of our leaders. If we continue on this path, the Chinese and the Muslims will just call their loans and effectively buy us.

HGM said:
So, what should have been done? What would you have done if you were the man making the decision of how to handle a man in charge of a country that was known to commit mass murder by using WMDs, denying he still had them but wouldnt allow inspectors to prove it?
I would have continued the flyovers and maintained the containment pressure. After all, our own nation committed mass murder against our own people when we nearly exterminated the Native Americans. Who are we to judge what someone does within the borders of their own country, especially when it causes us no harm and is not a threat to us? There is no way that Saddam was EVER a threat to us.

It has been proven that the Bush folks had an agenda to "do something" about Iraq before they even took office, and long before 9/11. Terrorism just became a convenient excuse for them to try to prove their whacky theories about foreign policy.

What I cannot understand is now that those theories have been shown to be so wrong that they are practically lunatic, how can you possibly suggest that we repeat the same mistakes in Iran?

Don't you understand? We are interfering with the Muslims more than they are interfering with us! We're the bad guys, here! We're the ones who attacked a Muslim nation without any good reason! We're the ones who are trying to force our form of government on people who don't understand it!
 
OkeeDon said:
If that's the case, then we are doomed, because we cannot afford to stay, either in terms of men or money. We will bankrupt ourselves. We are already the largest debtor nation in history, to the Saudis and Chinese, who are loaning us the money to make up the deficits caused by the insane war policies and insane tax cuts and insane oil policies of our leaders. If we continue on this path, the Chinese and the Muslims will just call their loans and effectively buy us.


I would have continued the flyovers and maintained the containment pressure. After all, our own nation committed mass murder against our own people when we nearly exterminated the Native Americans. Who are we to judge what someone does within the borders of their own country, especially when it causes us no harm and is not a threat to us? There is no way that Saddam was EVER a threat to us.

It has been proven that the Bush folks had an agenda to "do something" about Iraq before they even took office, and long before 9/11. Terrorism just became a convenient excuse for them to try to prove their whacky theories about foreign policy.

What I cannot understand is now that those theories have been shown to be so wrong that they are practically lunatic, how can you possibly suggest that we repeat the same mistakes in Iran?

Don't you understand? We are interfering with the Muslims more than they are interfering with us! We're the bad guys, here! We're the ones who attacked a Muslim nation without any good reason! We're the ones who are trying to force our form of government on people who don't understand it!

OK....:whistle:
 
bczoom said:
Except (of course)
The American Revolution
The Civil War
WW II
I'll give you the Revolution and the Civil War, although I should have been more precise -- I was thinking of foreign wars. Our involvement in WWII lasted only 2 years and 8 months; we passed that a while ago in Iraq.
 
Big Dog said:
Don,

It's what they understand, it would only be doing what they deem acceptable. Your the one judging us by stating "lowering yourself".
They don't see it as lowering themselves ................... :pat:
Of course, they don't -- they're scum and they're ignorant.

My question is, do you want to be scum and ignorant?
 
OkeeDon said:
Of course, they don't -- they're scum and they're ignorant.

My question is, do you want to be scum and ignorant?

Only in Iraq ................ YES!
 
B_Skurka said:
...but even those nations will ultimately face problems from Islamofacists if the moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc are subjegated by the Islamofacist rule.
Exactly! And, what is it that is promoting the rapid increase of the Islamofacists? What is it that despite their better instincts, are making moderate Muslims so angry that they're supporting the Islamofacists and helping them grow? Or, at the very least, are not opposing them?

You know, there's an old story -- and songs have been written -- about the old hound dog that sat on a tack. Well, that tack pained him so much, he just sat there and howled. I guess it never occurred to him that it started when he sat down, and that if he got up, it might stop.

Can't you see that it is OUR behavior, just like that old hound dog, that is causing the fundamentalists to grow stronger? If we don't like what they're doing, we should look to see why they're doing it. And, if we want to stop them doing what they're doing, we have only two choices - kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out, or get off the tack and stop doing what we're doing.
 
Big Dog said:
Only in Iraq ................ YES!
The problem is, you can't limit it to just one time or place. If you're scum, you're scum. My American is not scum, and I cannot abide anyone who wants to lower us to that level.

I'm PROUD to be an American and all that it stands for, and I will do everything in my power to stop our nation from lowering itself to the level of ignorant scum.
 
OkeeDon said:
Exactly! And, what is it that is promoting the rapid increase of the Islamofacists? What is it that despite their better instincts, are making moderate Muslims so angry that they're supporting the Islamofacists and helping them grow? Or, at the very least, are not opposing them?

You know, there's an old story -- and songs have been written -- about the old hound dog that sat on a tack. Well, that tack pained him so much, he just sat there and howled. I guess it never occurred to him that it started when he sat down, and that if he got up, it might stop.

Can't you see that it is OUR behavior, just like that old hound dog, that is causing the fundamentalists to grow stronger? If we don't like what they're doing, we should look to see why they're doing it. And, if we want to stop them doing what they're doing, we have only two choices - kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out, or get off the tack and stop doing what we're doing.

Dammit your wrong................... WE DON'T BOMB AND KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE! That should be enough for you to WAKE UP
 
OkeeDon said:
And, if we want to stop them doing what they're doing, we have only two choices - kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out, or get off the tack and stop doing what we're doing.
Somehow I do not see this a only a 2 sided issue. If it was only a 2 sided issue then the Muslims would not be fighting among themselves. There are far more dynamics at play than the West against Iran. Or US Imperialism against Iran. Or English/American support of Israel against Islam. Or Christianity agains Islam. But each of those issues is a 'problem' for the Islamofacists and each therefore is a reason.

Do you suggest that we just blow up Israel and then the Muslim radicals would be instantly our friends?
 
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