• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

Too close to Home

thcri

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
Mississippi Bride Interstate 35W collapses. Link Here.

This one is way too close to home. A bridge that I use to go on every day and was on it about a week ago and was just on the south side of it last night. Way too early to tell but it was suppose to bumper to bumper traffic and now they think a lot of the cars may be under the bridge.

Construction was going on but only doing resurfacing, the FBI has been brought in but no one thinks it was terroism at this point.

murph
 
Yikes. When stuff like that happens you really have to begin to wonder about your own mortality. Its the freak accidents that you can't plan for, can't anticipate in your wildest dreams, and that kill a lot of people.
 
It is the sad state of our highways, since all the Federal Highway money dried up, and the states haven't been taking care of the bridges or highways as a result. When all the gasoline tax money went to the Federal Highway fund, they always had money to give out for repairs and new roadwork. When our politicians raided that fund to pay for welfare programs, and other social programs, everything went to hell. There have been 2 catastrophic bridge collapses in CT in the past 15 years, that I can remember. There was a report a few years ago, that 80% of the bridges in MA were in need of serious repair. This country is going to hell as we waste billions of $$$$$ around the rest of the world. Remember, charity starts at home, and it is about time that our government starts to spending money here, instead of wasting it elsewhere....
 
Some report, don't know where it came from but was on the radio about how MNDot did an inspection on this bridge two years ago and noticed cracks in the steel but would not do anything at that time but would monitor them????
 
Yes they discovered stress fractures in the 2004 inspection. Now they were doing road resurface repairs? HHMMM doesnt take a rocket scientist or an Engineer to see theres a problem somewhere and that something is trying to move one way or another. This bridge should have been shut down the instant they discovered any type of stress fractures.

As far as the Fed highway funds anyone who has dipped into those to pay for ANY social program should be hung and quarterd! They should be held liable and be open to civil law suits!
 
As far as the Fed highway funds anyone who has dipped into those to pay for ANY social program should be hung and quarterd! They should be held liable and be open to civil law suits!
Click to expand...

I believe this is where the "FREE CORN" comes in!!!!
Mike
 
I just want to add to Junkman's post, as a past owner operator of tractor trailers and of paying in tons of road tax on top of the fuel tax gathered at pumps,,, it has been a well recognized argument for the last 40 years by truckers and trucking companies, that the road taxes paid in have been supplementing railroads,, Particularly a few years back the argument of a railroad that had 26 vice presidents or some such numbers, A truck pays at the pump like anyone else, they also pay, depending on the state, anywhere from 17 to 34 cents for every 6 miles driven in a particular state, and they don't buy fuel.. In other words, drive 100 miles in a state, this is divided by 6 which is 17 gallons in round numbers, So the that truck has to buy 17 gallons of fuel that trip or pay between the 17/34 road tax. Truck taxes alone, if they were redirected from railroads and other welfare uses, can replace every single bridge in this country..
 
I was to go to Mpls yesterday but for some reason the phone rang off the hook and I never got out of the office. I would not have been in this area or the time frame but today I do have to go up. From the traffic reports it won't be good no matter what area your going in in the Twin Cities. Since I have to go way to the north from the south end I may end up going way around on the east side then up.

murph
 
Murph, I kind of know how you feel. I was supposed to be in D.C at an FDA meeting the morning of 9/11 but was told at the last minute on 9/10 that I could conference call in. Needless to say that the call never happened. While I would not have been in any danger, life would have been more complicated in D.C. than here on 9/11. I guess things have a wierd way of unfolding that makes you realize how close you could have been to disaster.
Bone
 
Junk nailed it right on! It's all the social program and special interests that are sucking money away from maintaining our infrastructure. We can't keep growing cities outwards without rebuilding the old stuff that is used up.
 
Get this, we have estimates of up to a possible 50 cars being in the water under the concrete slab, oh and there is people in them cars yet. Some where around 14 or 15 hours after the collapse we now have people pointing fingers at Republicans, Democrats, the Governor and any other name they can throw out there as being at fault. We don't even have the people out yet.

The worse thing our governor could have done was to order a complete inspection of all bridges in Minnesota with similar design. Me I thought it was a good idea but there is people out there that found a way to make this the governor's fault because he didn't do anything about fixing the bridge two years ago when they found the thing to be bad.

murph

I don't know if anyone has seen it yet but MSN has a video of the security camera close to the bridge that shows part of it going down.
 
I've been listening to the news today. It sounds very grim. They said they were changing from RESCUE to RECOVERY mode. Pretty much means they have given up all hope of finding any other survivors.

It was also interesting that the NTSB is going to take the rubble away and try to rebuild the bridge to see what caused the failure. Someone on the radio today was saying it could have been simple vibration that just shook the bridge apart. What caused the vibration is anyone's guess.
 
...Someone on the radio today was saying it could have been simple vibration that just shook the bridge apart. What caused the vibration is anyone's guess...

Back in the old days, when I was in Navy boot camp we marched everywhere in formation, except over a bridge. There we were ordered to walk out of sync with everyone else. The word was that the marching cadence could set up vibrations and damage the bridge. That makes me wonder if the jackhammers of the construction crew might have been a factor. Analyzing that would be a real challenge for a physics whiz.
 
Yes this bridge collaspe does make you wonder if it may happen to you. I currently see it as a freak accident. Of coures I am certain there may be more information the comes out in the future that may or may not change my opinion.

I feel sad for those that lost a loved one or were injured during this event.



ghautz - I saw an episode of MythBusters where they tried to vibrate an old bridge. They were not successful in doing so. For the life of me i cann ot remember the terminology.
 
cj7 said:
ghautz - I saw an episode of MythBusters where they tried to vibrate an old bridge. They were not successful in doing so. For the life of me i cann ot remember the terminology.
Click to expand...

Would you be thinking of "resonance frequency" caused by oscillations?

The most notorious example is the Tacoma Narrows bridge.
 
B_Skurka said:
Someone on the radio today was saying it could have been simple vibration that just shook the bridge apart. What caused the vibration is anyone's guess.
Click to expand...


Having driven that bridge many times myself (lived there 5 years) during rush hour with traffic bottled down to two lanes in either direction, it would be moving very slow. Probably less than 20 mph.

Speculations:
  1. Maybe that focused weight on the inner lanes started something?
  2. Maybe the harmonic from still traffic with idling engines?
  3. Combination of both??
 
It doesn't take much really....Doc probably knows more details, but there was a bridge between OH and WV that collapsed, and the cause was determined to be the failure of a single connecting plate.

edit: Found an article....here.

After extensive studies of the broken structure members, the cause of failure was determined. The answer was the unique eye-bar design made from the newly innovated heat treated-carbon steel. The old saying, "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link," turned out to be a fact in the failure of the Silver Bridge.(18) The heat-treated carbon steel eye-bar broke, placing undue stress on the other members of the bridge. The remaining steel frame buckled and fell due to the newly concentrated stresses.

The cause of failure was attributed to a cleavage fracture in the lower limb of eye-bar 330 at joint C13N of the north eye-bar suspension chain in the Ohio side span." The fracture was caused from a minute crack formed during the casting of the steel eye-bar. Over the years, stress corrosion and corrosion fatigue allowed the crack to grow, causing the failure of the entire structure. At the time of construction, the steel used was not known for subduing to corrosion fatigue and stress corrosion. Inspection prior to construction would not have been able to notice the miniature crack. Over the life span of the bridge, the only way to detect the fracture would have been to disassemble the eye-bar. The technology used for inspection at the time was not capable of detecting such cracks.
Click to expand...

​
What is interesting is that the defect was present from the day the part was manufactured, and inspections would not have been able to find the defect. It is entirely possible the bridge in Minneapolis was doomed to failure from day one.
 
BoneheadNW said:
How can they determine that?
Bonehead
Click to expand...

From what I have seen on various television documentaries, this type of information can be determined by looking at corrosion and weathering of the different surfaces. This bridge had been standing for quite some time, and there would be corrosion in the small crack. This would be different from corrosion on surfaces of fresh fractures from the collapse, even if they were laying in the river. It is also possible to determine the rough point of failure by how the debris falls, similar to how an arson investigator (and probably most firefighters) can find the point of ignition by observing burn patterns.

What is really amazing is how the NTSB investigators can find conclusive cause in a plane wreckage. I saw one (I think it was a 737 in Central America) where they were able to determine that a bit of wire insulation on the back of the artificial horizon instrument was stripped away, and causing a short.:4_11_9:
 
DaveNay said:
It is also possible to determine the rough point of failure by how the debris falls, similar to how an arson investigator (and probably most firefighters) can find the point of ignition by observing burn patterns.
Click to expand...
The difference is that, unless the structure burns completely to the ground, things stay where they burned and can be examined. When a bridge falls, how do they know what piece came from where? I guess it can be done with a bridge if they can do it with a plane.
Bonehead
 
This is an interesting picture.....

Did the collapse of the bridge cause this pier to tip, or did current in the river undermine the pier, and cause it to shift and bring down the entire structure?

This is pure speculation on my part....it's worth exactly double what you paid for it.
 

Attachments

  • pier.jpg
    pier.jpg
    71.1 KB · Views: 174
DaveNay said:
This is an interesting picture.....

Did the collapse of the bridge cause this pier to tip, or did current in the river undermine the pier, and cause it to shift and bring down the entire structure?

This is pure speculation on my part....it's worth exactly double what you paid for it.
Click to expand...

Dave,
They are now saying the south end of the bridge moved to the left by 50 feet. They still don't think this was the cause but maybe an effect. The pic you have is the south end that moved to one side by 50ft.
 
Update. The Gusset plates designed to be twice as strong as the rest of the metal was half the size it was suppose to be. One man's single error.
 
She is now open :clap: I will be on her tomorrow. http://www.consolidatedphoto.com/Approximately 13 months later.


The replacement 35W bridge over the Mississippi River opened to traffic at 5 a.m. Thursday, Sept. 18, 2008.
Click to expand...

The new bridge has 323 sensors that will generate an extensive record of how it handles the stresses and strains of traffic and Minnesota's harsh climate.
Click to expand...

Many vehicles honked their horns as they drove across and a few motorists waved American flags.
Click to expand...

The General Contractor or Construction Manager got a 20 million dollar bonus as it was completed on time.

This will take a major relief off of the rush hour traffice again in the Twin Cities.


murph
 
Yup. Hey is there a toll for it? Or do you just go straight across? I hope it will save some good time off of your commute!
 
Deadly Sushi said:
Yup. Hey is there a toll for it? Or do you just go straight across? I hope it will save some good time off of your commute!
Click to expand...

No toll and I don't commute over it. I live about 100 miles south in another city. But it was the main artery for Twin Citians adn I am sure they are happy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top