Thiokol 601

[ljstan]

Seskelson
I didn't see your first name in the post, but I just purchased a 601 snow cat built in 1963, I live in payson utah and rebuilding it. I would love to ask a few question if possible and get a little history. I was told that most of the 601s were build for the military but mine stills has the original paint which is blue and silver with pin stripping, serial number 10 limited. My name is Lloyd Stanton 801.623.9079

 

[redsqwrl]

I am not sure Scott Eskelson (son of Ross Eskelson) is on the Forum but I know he has contributed to it in years past. I believe the picture you provided is of a modified model D (5 bolt idler wheels as opposed to 8 bolt on the model E), looks like it has been repowered with something other than the original flathead ford 254 straight six. Looks like it also has an automatic transmission now. Front axle differential has been cut out and replaced with a pipe. I like the wider cab as compared to mine, a little more elbow room. You should acquire this unit and restore it.

I have a photo of the id tag somewhere. Its a mutt for sure pretty sure the tag says its an E.
There was a giant wasp nest in it when i snapped the photo and they wanted to help......

 

[GMoose]

Here is what I have on this cat: Base on this it is S/N 24 and is a Model D.

 

[redsqwrl]

nice

 

[fritz]

Nice to have you here with us Mr Eskelson. We have an frandee parked at a ski area near us. View attachment 135636

There is a similar looking cat in the next town over from me. I'll try and grab some pics next time I'm over that way. Pretty cool looking rig

 

[fritz]

Specs on my 1963 601
Weight. 5460lbs
Height. 92 3/8 in
Width. 97 1/4 in
Length. 161 in
Payload. 2000 lbs

 

[fritz]

Here is what I have on this cat: Base on this it is S/N 24 and is a Model D.

View attachment 136337View attachment 136338View attachment 136339View attachment 136340

 

[ljstan]

I have a 1963 601 that i am just beginning to restore which i have had setting for many years. In that time i have tryed to learn as much about this unit as i could such as it history at least as the one i have is concernd. I also obtained an original owners manual from THIOKOL CHEMICAL CORP. So i would be glad to share what info i may have that you do not..

This is Lloyd Stanton I am wondering if you found the manual. I am still working on my and need help on the Clutch and Steering thanks for the help . 801 623.9079

 

[Blackfoot Tucker]

This is Lloyd Stanton I am wondering if you found the manual. I am still working on my and need help on the Clutch and Steering thanks for the help . 801 623.9079

Lloyd,

First, welcome to the forum. You'll find a bunch of nice folks with considerable knowledge and experience. Don't be shy about asking questions.

If you haven't seen this thread, I highly recommend you grab a few of your favorite beverages and settle in for a thoroughly fascinating read. Weatherby set the Gold Standard for Thiokol restoration!

THIOKOL 601 RESTORE

The beginning of my long awaited restore. And can you believe it (the wife just doesn't get it):confused2:

www.forumsforums.com

 

[chowderman]

uhmmm, not much experience with snow machines, but I got the impression one was supposed to keep the snow on the bottom part . . .

 

[Thefatsquatch]

I am not sure Scott Eskelson (son of Ross Eskelson) is on the Forum but I know he has contributed to it in years past. I believe the picture you provided is of a modified model D (5 bolt idler wheels as opposed to 8 bolt on the model E), looks like it has been repowered with something other than the original flathead ford 254 straight six. Looks like it also has an automatic transmission now. Front axle differential has been cut out and replaced with a pipe. I like the wider cab as compared to mine, a little more elbow room. You should acquire this unit and restore it.

So…. Just picked up a 4VL from Boise. It’s pretty dismantled, but it’s in decent shape. No engine or trans. Where is the plate on these supposed to be?

 

[GMoose]

So…. Just picked up a 4VL from Boise. It’s pretty dismantled, but it’s in decent shape. No engine or trans. Where is the plate on these supposed to be?

Do you mean data plate?

 

[Thefatsquatch]

Yes

Do you mean data plate?

Yes. The registration plate or data plate. I know there are only a few of these, but I can’t tell if I got one of the ones already listed, or if I was able to find another one.

 

[GMoose]

Yes

Yes. The registration plate or data plate. I know there are only a few of these, but I can’t tell if I got one of the ones already listed, or if I was able to find another one.

Here are a few pictures of that cat from about a year and a half ago when I looked at it. The data plate was not attached at that time. It might still be laying in the cab somewhere. Also, Vintagebike may also have some information on that cat. If I remember correctly he may have the original engine and transmission for it in McCall.

 

[Thefatsquatch]

Well

Here are a few pictures of that cat from about a year and a half ago when I looked at it. The data plate was not attached at that time. It might still be laying in the cab somewhere. Also, Vintagebike may also have some information on that cat. If I remember correctly he may have the original engine and transmission for it in McCall.

View attachment 169280View attachment 169281View attachment 169282View attachment 169283View attachment 169284View attachment 169285View attachment 169286View attachment 169287View attachment 169288View attachment 169289

Well that’s Awesome! Thank You! Yep, sounds like Steve had this one for a while, then sold it to Guthrie, then bought it back after he passed, then sold it to Todd. Is that the same Todd that now has an older Tucker? I didn’t get it from Todd, but a lady named Jill. It’s in decent shape, but I need to sort out engine and transmission. Haven’t decided if it’s going to be a restoration or a hot-rod project. It’s so light I feel like a modern aluminum v6 or even straight 4 would be plenty of motor and keep the weight down. And I have not convinced myself wooden grousers are a good idea. lol.

 

[GMoose]

Cant remember the guys name, but it must have been the Todd guy who owned it when I looked at it. If you are not going to take it back to original I would not go with the original wood grouser design. My Frandee has that design and they do great until you are on a side hill or slight packed slope. The 1" wide steel wear plates on the contact face of each grouser are basically multiple little skis and slide sideways she will. However, it allows the machine to do great cookies/donuts.

In my opinion going with a straight 6 engine and an auto transmission would be a great repower. My Frandee has plenty of power with just over 100 hp, and I weigh around 5000 lbs loaded. I drove a Tucker 442 a couple of years ago with a Ford 300 I6, it had plenty of power. The Tucker resto-mod handicap cat I am very slowly working on will be powered by a Ford 300 I6 coupled with a C6 auto transmission. If you go with a 4 banger make sure it can produce enough of power at low RPM. I really like the idea of an automatic transmission. My Frandee has a manual and shifting gears is difficult without loosing speed or even having to stop. Well that is enough of my opinions, good luck.

 

[GMoose]

Cant remember the guys name, but it must have been the Todd guy who owned it when I looked at it. If you are not going to take it back to original I would not go with the original wood grouser design. My Frandee has that design and they do great until you are on a side hill or slight packed slope. The 1" wide steel wear plates on the contact face of each grouser are basically multiple little skis and slide sideways she will. However, it allows the machine to do great cookies/donuts.

In my opinion going with a straight 6 engine and an auto transmission would be a great repower. My Frandee has plenty of power with just over 100 hp, and I weigh around 5000 lbs loaded. I drove a Tucker 442 a couple of years ago with a Ford 300 I6, it had plenty of power. The Tucker resto-mod handicap cat I am very slowly working on will be powered by a Ford 300 I6 coupled with a C6 auto transmission. If you go with a 4 banger make sure it can produce enough of power at low RPM. I really like the idea of an automatic transmission. My Frandee has a manual and shifting gears is difficult without loosing speed or even having to stop. Well that is enough of my opinions, good luck.

Also, Redsqwrl is in the process of putting a 4VS back together. That cat has a 4 banger in it, you might want to contact him and find out what the engine is and if he thinks it has enough power for the application. He is a wealth of knowledge and could be a great asset for your build.

 

[vintagebike]

I had a Chevrolet 4.3 V6 with the balance shaft from (believe it or not) a Meyers Tow'd dune buggy and a TH350 automatic all set and mounted in this 4VL using styrofoam mock ups. Decided to put the pair into our 1949 Tucker RestoMod instead. The 4VL and a truck
load of extra bits was traded off in a deal I could not refuse.

 

[Thefatsquatch]

I’ll measure things out and see if a Vortec motor will fit. That seems to be what people use for light weight resto mods. I’ve never driven the clutch-and-brake style of skid steering, but would an automatic transmission make it more or less hard on the drivetrain?

 

[catservice]

I have two sets of NOS 600 tracks. The belts are questionable, look good but cracks starting. The grousers are practically brand new. Still have the red primer on them.

Looking for what you guys think they are worth? I think each track has 70 - 80 grousers. I can post pictures later this week.

 

[no the case]

I am not an expert on the machines by any means. I am posting what I think to be true however I hope anyone will correct me where I am mistaken so I can learn more about these machines. Sometime in the early '50s the University of Utah built several prototypes of low ground pressure machines for Morton Thiokol for use in missile testing programs taking place on the salt flats. The most sucessful of these was the 4VL. It had a drive system where the the engine power went into a gear box where it was split into two output shafts each running through its own clutch and brake. Then two separate driveshafts took the power to two truck style differentials welded together with the outboard axles turning sprockets to drive the tracks. Pulling back on the steering lever first disengaged the clutch, then applied the brake when pulled further, turning the machine. This drive system was most likely very difficult to keep properly adjusted and at any rate not very strong. The last body style used had the reverse sloped windshield and would become the 601 series. The 601 drivetrain went with a Ford inline six cylinder engine, 4-speed standard transmission, and a OC-15 steering differential. The military spec machines used the Ford 240 cu.in. and the civilian version could be ordered with the Ford 300 cu.in. engines. Oliver Tractor Corp. made crawlers using Clark steering differentials, notably the OC-4 and OC-12 which were used in the Thiokol Spryte, or 1200 series, machines. The OC-4 was also used in the Thiokol Imp. They did not build an OC-15 crawler so I believe this differential was made for military contract. The military 601 was mostly used for airfield recovery. I am somewhat puzzled by the example I own since it has the 300 engine, no roof hatch over the passenger seat, yet was originally painted blue (Air Force). I have heard these vehicles refered to as "Trackmasters" and have a maintenance book cover that says that too. They are very heavy duty especially by snowcat standards.

 

[no the case]

I am not an expert on the machines by any means. I am posting what I think to be true however I hope anyone will correct me where I am mistaken so I can learn more about these machines. Sometime in the early '50s the University of Utah built several prototypes of low ground pressure machines for Morton Thiokol for use in missile testing programs taking place on the salt flats. The most sucessful of these was the 4VL. It had a drive system where the the engine power went into a gear box where it was split into two output shafts each running through its own clutch and brake. Then two separate driveshafts took the power to two truck style differentials welded together with the outboard axles turning sprockets to drive the tracks. Pulling back on the steering lever first disengaged the clutch, then applied the brake when pulled further, turning the machine. This drive system was most likely very difficult to keep properly adjusted and at any rate not very strong. The last body style used had the reverse sloped windshield and would become the 601 series. The 601 drivetrain went with a Ford inline six cylinder engine, 4-speed standard transmission, and a OC-15 steering differential. The military spec machines used the Ford 240 cu.in. and the civilian version could be ordered with the Ford 300 cu.in. engines. Oliver Tractor Corp. made crawlers using Clark steering differentials, notably the OC-4 and OC-12 which were used in the Thiokol Spryte, or 1200 series, machines. The OC-4 was also used in the Thiokol Imp. They did not build an OC-15 crawler so I believe this differential was made for military contract. The military 601 was mostly used for airfield recovery. I am somewhat puzzled by the example I own since it has the 300 engine, no roof hatch over the passenger seat, yet was originally painted blue (Air Force). I have heard these vehicles refered to as "Trackmasters" and have a maintenance book cover that says that too. They are very heavy duty especially by snowcat standards.

I attached some pictures. My grandpa used to let Utah st. use his snow car that he made in the late 20's, for snow studies, measure snow depths ECT. They kept making excuses for why they wouldn't bring it back, after few weeks he went over and they had it torn apart building one stealing his idea. I can't stand how these people get credit along with another guy when only thing they did was steal idea from someone else, Ruger Barson from Clarkston utah. That's who should be getting credit. I've got hundreds of pictures, early patenting pictures to prove everything I'm saying.

 

[Thefatsquatch]

I attached some pictures. My grandpa used to let Utah st. use his snow car that he made in the late 20's, for snow studies, measure snow depths ECT. They kept making excuses for why they wouldn't bring it back, after few weeks he went over and they had it torn apart building one stealing his idea. I can't stand how these people get credit along with another guy when only thing they did was steal idea from someone else, Ruger Barson from Clarkston utah. That's who should be getting credit. I've got hundreds of pictures, early patenting pictures to prove everything I'm saying.

Interesting. Have you taken that information to a patent office or anything? I’m new to the snowcat restoration game, but I’m curious why they would have to take it apart to study it. From my experience, there are only two styles of differential, and the suspension is on the outside, so that’s easy to copy. I’m certainly not claiming ideas weren’t stolen back then. But I’m just not sure why it would need to be disassembled to sort it out.

 

[redsqwrl]

I have two sets of NOS 600 tracks. The belts are questionable, look good but cracks starting. The grousers are practically brand new. Still have the red primer on them.

Looking for what you guys think they are worth? I think each track has 70 - 80 grousers. I can post pictures later this week.

im in to hear about these

 

[no the case]

Hello. Just a little note of correction. I am the son of Ross Eskelson. The correct univeristy is Utah State University - then known as Utah State Agricultural College in Logan, Utah. My father was one of the original designers and builders of their earliest snow cats. The original one at USU was the Frandee Sno Shu named after its designers Roy France (still alive) and Emmett Devine. My dad helped build and engineer it. Later he developed the patents that became the Trackmaster. In 1960 he convinced Thiokol to start their Logan plant and Thiokol then bought the patents for the Trackmaster from USU. Dad was the operations manager and in charge of all research and devleopment. His friend Blaine Rich was the general manager and he had worked for Thiokol in Brigham City. Merrill Brown was the production superviser and had worked with dad in building the original Trackmasters at USU. Dad desiged the 1200 Spryte and it's first really big claim to fame was its use at the 1964 Innsbruck Olympics for snow grooming. rm. Tucker was a visitor in our hom in the 1960;s and dad corresponded with John Arman Bombardier from the earliest days. He left Thiokol in 1971 and did the initial design work for Bombaradier vehicles. We built two of their prototypes in our garage in Utah (including their first hydrostatic vehicle) and then shipped them to Quebec for testing. I know--- as I built the tracks myself by hand. Dad passed away in 2008. We still have his last vehicle which he made out of a Ford F250 pick up. We are restoring it. He believed in using readily available pa

 

[no the case]

Interesting. Have you taken that information to a patent office or anything? I’m new to the snowcat restoration game, but I’m curious why they would have to take it apart to study it. From my experience, there are only two styles of differential, and the suspension is on the outside, so that’s easy to copy. I’m certainly not claiming ideas weren’t stolen back then. But I’m just not sure why it would need to be disassembled to sort it out.

 

[no the case]

No I have not. My grandpa died in 1991, I've got snow cat he built in 1930. It has an Oliver tractor rear end. The tracks were belting, with channel iron I believe 1.5 inch channel, with wood bolted to channel iron. I've got many pics from 1940's of the snowcat. I've got very detailed notes and papers on letting Utah state use the snowcat for snow studies ECT. Many notes of days he contacted Utah state wondering when they would bring it back. I'm happy to speak or communicate with anyone that's got questions but not looking for any debate or argument.

 

[redsqwrl]

I have sat in a few Utah scientific cats. each very different and yet similar. the legacy or evolution of the over the snow machine is interesting. Track laying machines are fundamentally cool at every level. ever since a pioneer strapped a board to a wagon wheel to rise out of the mire have we aspired to improve on the design.
I am local to east central wisconsin, there was a tiny tractor manufacture here that put a driven track laying system on the front most wheel of three wheeled tractors common in that era. I would have just loved to see or hear of the discussions that led to trying the design and of course developing the concept.

Killen-Strait - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your information and supporting documentation is worthy of its own thread to capture and retain for future reference.
Unusual locomotion is a web site collection of all things mechanized ( there is a wonderful area for track laying )there are a series of books published on over the snow machines.
I would consider submitting some items to their respective research teams.

 

[no the case]

I have sat in a few Utah scientific cats. each very different and yet similar. the legacy or evolution of the over the snow machine is interesting. Track laying machines are fundamentally cool at every level. ever since a pioneer strapped a board to a wagon wheel to rise out of the mire have we aspired to improve on the design.
I am local to east central wisconsin, there was a tiny tractor manufacture here that put a driven track laying system on the front most wheel of three wheeled tractors common in that era. I would have just loved to see or hear of the discussions that led to trying the design and of course developing the concept.

Killen-Strait - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your information and supporting documentation is worthy of its own thread to capture and retain for future reference.
Unusual locomotion is a web site collection of all things mechanized ( there is a wonderful area for track laying )there are a series of books published on over the snow machines.
I would consider submitting some items to their respective research teams.

 

[JonasSmith]

My 601 has a 223 ci ford motor that now needs rebuild. By chance would anyone have a 262 ci ford -6 around. It’s found in medium duty fords in the early 60s.