How gas cars use more electricity to go 100 mi then EVs do.

[mbsieg]

How gas cars use more electricity to go 100 miles than EVs do

File this one under 'ammunition for future debates.'

www.autoblog.com

EVangelist Peder Norby, who has been having more fun driving and writing about his Mini E than anyone at BMW probably thought possible, recently wrote a most interesting post comparing electricity usage to produce gasoline to the electricity needed to drive an electric car. The short version: "It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles, than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles."

Let's go over that again. If we simply count the electricity used to make the gasoline that gets burned in a normal vehicle, you need more juice than you do to move an EV the same distance. Of course, then you need to factor in the actual gasoline used (and the resulting CO2 emissions). Plus, don't forget, it takes a bunch of water to refine gasoline. Put this all together and you've got on hell of an energy efficiency argument in favor of plug-in vehicles. Here are some numbers (get more details in Norby's post).

There is no exact calculation for how much electricity it takes to drill, transport and refine a gallon of gasoline, but the accepted amount is around 8 kWh. So, for 8 kWh, you can go around 22 miles (using the U.S. average; we know you can go over twice that if you drive a Toyota Prius). That means that a gasoline car uses just under 40 kWh to go 100 miles. An EV, on the other hand, uses around 30 kWh to go 100 miles (given 3.3 miles per kWh, which is on the low side for some cars).

 

[FrancSevin]

Oh please, gimme a break.

What about how much energy it takes to mine and refine the rare earth minerals in order to make and EV battery?


Or, how much energy it takes to manufacture a windmill that never produces as much energy as it takes to build it.
There is a reason that little Tesla cost 150% more than a gasoline version of the same size car. Even withe tax rebates.

Buy an EV to prove your virtue. Or because it fits your lifestyle.
Don't buy one to save the planet, because it won't.

 

[mbsieg]

Oh please, gimme a break.

What about how much energy it takes to mine and refine the rare earth minerals in order to make and EV battery?

So you're telling me aluminum steel copper and all the other materials to build an ice vehicle magically appear?

Or, how much energy it takes to manufacture a windmill that never produces as much energy as it takes to build it.

How the heck did we get on windmills?
But since we are now, in my book, the jury is still out on them. I've seen all the memes. I've read a bunch of articles that say they will never pay for themselves, but then I also see production numbers, other countries without subsidies putting them up and making them work. And articles saying that they pay for themselves very fast. Coal, natural gas, heck diesel power generators, you don't just get poof there It is either. You have to provide work to get energy. Seems there is always a negative to get the positive.

There is a reason that little Tesla cost 150% more than a gasoline version of the same size car. Even withe tax rebates.

Since the only vehicle that has a exact vehicle to compare from is the F-150 made both in electric and ice. Definitely does not have 150% markup , you would have to somehow prove that number. Most EVs tend to have higher tech and more luxurious interiors. So you are comparing apples to oranges to pears.

Buy an EV to prove your virtue. Or because it fits your lifestyle.
Don't buy one to save the planet, because it won't.

Not going to argue that point at all. Buy what fits your needs or wants.

You'll notice. I like being the devil's advocate. Evs definitely do not have their place everywhere, and definitely do some things better than ice and vice versa.

 

[m1west]

So you're telling me aluminum steel copper and all the other materials to build an ice vehicle magically appear?

How the heck did we get on windmills?
But since we are now, in my book, the jury is still out on them. I've seen all the memes. I've read a bunch of articles that say they will never pay for themselves, but then I also see production numbers, other countries without subsidies putting them up and making them work. And articles saying that they pay for themselves very fast. Coal, natural gas, heck diesel power generators, you don't just get poof there It is either. You have to provide work to get energy. Seems there is always a negative to get the positive.

Since the only vehicle that has a exact vehicle to compare from is the F-150 made both in electric and ice. Definitely does not have 150% markup , you would have to somehow prove that number. Most EVs tend to have higher tech and more luxurious interiors. So you are comparing apples to oranges to pears.

Not going to argue that point at all. Buy what fits your needs or wants.

You'll notice. I like being the devil's advocate. Evs definitely do not have their place everywhere, and definitely do some things better than ice and vice versa.

Is a EV made from air? all those components and more go into an EV, not to mention have you ever seen what a lithium mine looks like?

 

[mbsieg]

Is a EV made from air? all those components and more go into an EV, not to mention have you ever seen what a lithium mine looks like?

That was exactly my point. You have an interesting way of looking at what people post.

 

[mbsieg]

Is a EV made from air? all those components and more go into an EV, not to mention have you ever seen what a lithium mine looks like?

Yeah I've actually been to a couple. There's a startup lithium mine about 100 mi from my house. It is a brine based lithium mine looks just like a wellhead for an oil well. In fact, my landfill took all the drill cuttings from it. Also drove past the one in Arizona. Looked a lot like iron ore mines in Minnesota, gold mines in South Dakota, copper king mine Butte, Montana an open pit mine in general.

 

[FrancSevin]

So you're telling me aluminum steel copper and all the other materials to build an ice vehicle magically appear?

How the heck did we get on windmills?
But since we are now, in my book, the jury is still out on them. I've seen all the memes. I've read a bunch of articles that say they will never pay for themselves, but then I also see production numbers, other countries without subsidies putting them up and making them work. And articles saying that they pay for themselves very fast. Coal, natural gas, heck diesel power generators, you don't just get poof there It is either. You have to provide work to get energy. Seems there is always a negative to get the positive.

Since the only vehicle that has a exact vehicle to compare from is the F-150 made both in electric and ice. Definitely does not have 150% markup , you would have to somehow prove that number. Most EVs tend to have higher tech and more luxurious interiors. So you are comparing apples to oranges to pears.

Not going to argue that point at all. Buy what fits your needs or wants.

You'll notice. I like being the devil's advocate. Evs definitely do not have their place everywhere, and definitely do some things better than ice and vice versa.

It takes 1800 gallons of diesel fuel to produce enough Lithium for one Tesla battery.
See post #6937 in "Toons for the Times."
Prove me wrong!

So yeah, "Gimme a break."

 

[mbsieg]

It takes 1800 gallons of diesel fuel to produce enough Lithium for one Tesla battery.
See post #6937 in "Toons for the Times."
Prove me wrong!

So yeah, "Gimme a break."

That was pretty easy. Took me about 30 seconds

Busting the Lies About Big Trucks and Electric Cars

Have you seen the one about the big trucks that burn 1800 gallons of diesel to make just 1 electric car? Yeah – that one's a lie.

electrifynews.com

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MYTHBUSTING​

Busting the Lies About Big Trucks​

• JULY 8, 2022

Have you seen the one about the big trucks that burn 1800 gallons of diesel to make just 1 electric car? Yeah – that one’s a lie.
“This is a CAT994H,” the hysteria-fueled post reads. “It burns 1800 gallons of fuel in a 12 hour shift. This machine is required to move 500,000 lbs. of earth in order to get the minerals needed for ONE SINGLE Tesla car battery. In whose world does this type of math and green new deal make sense?”
And, look– if you think we’re making that all up and there is no one out there who could possibly be dense enough to believe anything like that’s actually what’s happening …

… there it is.
Look, we all know there are powerful forces in the world who are against electrification. Electrification threatens their business or their income, and they’ve found a way to use social media to influence people who are looking not necessarily for facts, but for fuel to feed the fires of whatever it is they believe. And, in fairness, that’s happening on every side of just about every issue.
What’s more, that post up there has already been debunked by an entire cottage industry of fact-checkers who will point out that the diesel calculations for the big mining trucks is wrong, the amount of dirt moved is wrong, and speak to the fact that those minerals, once pulled from the ground to be used in batteries, can be indefinitely recycled, meaning that initial carbon expense is only paid once, whereas a fossil fuel has a carbon cost to get from the ground, a carbon cost to refine, a carbon cost to transport, and a carbon cost to burn … and, of course, once it’s burned, you can’t reuse it. You have to go get more. Others have done all of that, admirably– but we’re going to do something different.
We’re going to assume that every single word of that nonsensical tweet/gram/tok is 100% correct, and show you that there’s a way to do the same amount of work that the big CAT994H can do with big trucks that are electric.
And, not just big trucks that are electric … but big trucks that never need charging. Ready to learn more? Read on.

 

[mbsieg]

It takes 1800 gallons of diesel fuel to produce enough Lithium for one Tesla battery.
See post #6937 in "Toons for the Times."
Prove me wrong!

So yeah, "Gimme a break."

You also might want to Google 944H fuel consumption.

 

[m1west]

That was exactly my point. You have an interesting way of looking at what people post.

So you agree that at least as much resources go into a EV as a Ice vehicle. If not what do they cost so much more. I don't know how my statement proved your point, but happy that we agree.

 

[m1west]

 

[m1west]

15 tons of co2 to mine 1 ton of lithium, not to mention the toxic materials and toxic water left behind.

 

[FrancSevin]

15 tons of co2 to mine 1 ton of lithium, not to mention the toxic materials and toxic water left behind.

The fact that the dozer doesn't burn that much fuel is important. However, it does not mute the arguments made. Most of which cherry pick their facts leaving out any that might lay dispute.

I will admit that I do see total, mandated, electrification as a threat to my lifestyle, security and employment. Not because the Utopian world it promised is a lie, but because a corrupt government is forcing the change on a nation, a Western world, that in the last 200 years, made huge strides in the improvement of life through a system of free enterprise where-in the best product, the best process and the best solutions won the favor of a buying public.

We did not succeed as an economic powerhouse because of the brilliance of our government. In fact, our government has gone broke several times and has been so for the last 30 years. Enough said right there.

We live in a country whose leaders had to cheat to get elected and have made structural changes in our Democracy, (for the so-called effort to save it) and brought us to our knees in fear wearing useless paper masks, forced injections with unproven & dangerous drugs, all out of fear of a viral "flu" they, quite possibly, may well have engineered.

Total Electrification removes alternatives that make our lives better before this new age power source can duplicate the results to a similar level, much less have the capacity to even try. Flame broiling in a gas stove or BBQ beats an electric unit every time. I am all for improvement and change. However, I will always resist offers I am forced to take.

Especially so in a supposedly "free country."

 

[m1west]

The fact that the dozer doesn't burn that much fuel is important. However, it does not mute the arguments made. Most of which cherry pick their facts leaving out any that might lay dispute.

I will admit that I see total electrification as a threat to my lifestyle, security and employment. Not because the Utopian world promised is a lie, but because a corrupt government is forcing the change on a nation, a Western world, that in the last 200 years, made huge strides in the improvement of life through a system of free enterprise where-in the best product, the best process and the best solutions won the favor of a buying public.

We live in a country who's leaders had to cheat to get elected and have made structural changes in our Democracy, (for the so-called effort to save it) and brought us to our knees in fear wearing useless paper masks, forced injections with unproven & dangerous drugs, all out of fear of a viral "flu" they may well have engineered.

Total Electrification removes alternatives that make our lives better before this new age power source can duplicate the results to a similar level, much less have the capacity to even try. Flame broiling in a gas stove or BBQ beats an electric unit every time. I am all for improvement and change. However, I will always resist offers I am forced to take.

Especially so in a supposedly "free country."

Exactly, if the EV product is so good, why does the changeover to electric have to be forced down our throats. The proof is in the sales numbers. If the EV's were not heavily subsidized as well as the charging stations, the sales numbers would be even worse.

 

[FrancSevin]

Elon Musk made his fortune because off Tax rebates on his product. As it happened, the government was hell bent on providing the subsidies, and Elon was smart enough to seize the opportunity.

Much like Howard Hughes, who took government contracts, added his money and built planes for the military. After the war, when he wouldn't play ball, the gubmit went after him. Just as our gubmit is now doing to Elon.

 

[mbsieg]

15 tons of co2 to mine 1 ton of lithium, not to mention the toxic materials and toxic water left behind.

Sounds good. Let's do the math on that then. I'll use the Ford lightning. It's battery weighs 1800 lb. So a Ford F-150 ice produces 442 g. Per mile of CO2. There are 907,184 g in a ton. So we will divide. 907,184/ 442 equals 2052. 2052* 15 tons equals 30,780 mi.

 

[m1west]

Sounds good. Let's do the math on that then. I'll use the Ford lightning. It's battery weighs 1800 lb. So a Ford F-150 ice produces 442 g. Per mile of CO2. There are 907,184 g in a ton. So we will divide. 907,184/ 442 equals 2052. 2052* 15 tons equals 30,780 mi.

You left some factors out of your calculation, like mining the coal, transporting the coal, converting the coal into electricity. Yes your electric truck runs on coal. Yes fossil fuels have to be pumped and refined also, and a good thing or you couldn't mine the coal or produce the plastic that goes into building the car or truck. If your electric truck works for you and your happy with a 80 mile range while towing and extended charge time in the cold along with reduced range in a vehicle that cost at least a third more than an ICE vehicle, I'm happy for you.

 

[mbsieg]

You left some factors out of your calculation, like mining the coal, transporting the coal,

You gave me the figure to use. So I'm assuming your figure is correct

converting the coal into electricity.

Now you want to add in the fuel. They're the EV has you beat. Not only does the truck run on coal but natural gas, hydroelectric, wind, sun, and more. Do you seriously think there's no carbon emissions pumping oil out of the ground and refining it?

Yes your electric truck runs on coal. Yes fossil fuels have to be pumped and refined also, and a good thing or you couldn't mine the coal or produce the plastic that goes into building the car or truck.

No different than an ice vehicle. We're only talking about the fuel that powers it not building the vehicle again. That's the same across the board other than a battery.

If your electric truck works for you and your happy with a 80 mile range while towing and extended charge time in the cold

Please provide proof. I have real world experience

along with reduced range in a vehicle that cost at least a third more than an ICE vehicle, I'm happy for you.

It's always the same things you keep going back to. Why don't you start proving instead of just talking. This forum used to provide proof. people posted links, articles, etc. I see there are a few old timers that still do. But just cuz you say it does not make it So. You know so much about EVs. I doubt you've driven one. If you have, there's no way it would ever work in your mind. At your age. You are correct. You will never have to purchase or drive one. I'm not trying to convince you and I could care less what you do. But whether you like it or not. The numbers don't lie. People are buying them and using them and making them work. And they do work.

 

[chowderman]

you guys are funny!

 

[m1west]

You gave me the figure to use. So I'm assuming your figure is correct

Now you want to add in the fuel. They're the EV has you beat. Not only does the truck run on coal but natural gas, hydroelectric, wind, sun, and more. Do you seriously think there's no carbon emissions pumping oil out of the ground and refining it?

No different than an ice vehicle. We're only talking about the fuel that powers it not building the vehicle again. That's the same across the board other than a battery.

Please provide proof. I have real world experience

It's always the same things you keep going back to. Why don't you start proving instead of just talking. This forum used to provide proof. people posted links, articles, etc. I see there are a few old timers that still do. But just cuz you say it does not make it So. You know so much about EVs. I doubt you've driven one. If you have, there's no way it would ever work in your mind. At your age. You are correct. You will never have to purchase or drive one. I'm not trying to convince you and I could care less what you do. But whether you like it or not. The numbers don't lie. People are buying them and using them and making them work. And they do work

 

[m1west]

 

[m1west]

 

[m1west]

I have posted plenty of evidence, here are 2 more articles. Its common knowledge. 88 mile range while towing and no one is buying them except you.

 

[mbsieg]

I have posted plenty of evidence, here are 2 more articles. Its common knowledge. 88 mile range while towing and no one is buying them except you.

You're delusional! Lol

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/business/americans-bought-1-million-electric-this-year/index.html

Me and a million other people.

Towing all depends on what you are towing. I was making further distances then you're saying towing over 16,000 lb.
I managed to pull this to the mountain and back quite often. Four sleds in it. Not sure what it weighs. Have never weighed it full. that's right at 100 mi.

 

[m1west]

So you made it 12 more miles, guess your a better driver than the motor trend driver, WTF. A dodge with a cummins would pull it 1/4 way across the country and wouldn't have to rent a hotel room to fill up, who is delusional?

 

[mbsieg]

So you made it 12 more miles, guess your a better driver than the motor trend driver, WTF. A dodge with a cummins would pull it 1/4 way across the country and wouldn't have to rent a hotel room to fill up, who is delusional?

Had a Dodge Cummins didn't care for it. It got horrible mileage pulling same as the electric. Yeah I sleep in hotel rooms at night. Lot of people do. You should try it.

 

[mbsieg]

So you made it 12 more miles, guess your a better driver than the motor trend driver,

Nope, just different roads. Different trailer different. Lots of things.

WTF. A dodge with a cummins would pull it 1/4 way across the country and wouldn't have to rent a hotel room to fill up, who is delusional?

Still cost less than driving a diesel.

 

[FrancSevin]

Nope, just different roads. Different trailer different. Lots of things.

Still cost less than driving a diesel.

Had a Dodge Cummins didn't care for it. It got horrible mileage pulling same as the electric. Yeah I sleep in hotel rooms at night. Lot of people do. You should try it.

But that doesn't work for most people. Stopping at a hotel costs time. Time is money. So isa hotel bill.

You're delusional! Lol

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/business/americans-bought-1-million-electric-this-year/index.html

Me and a million other people.

Towing all depends on what you are towing. I was making further distances then you're saying towing over 16,000 lb.
I managed to pull this to the mountain and back quite often. Four sleds in it. Not sure what it weighs. Have never weighed it full. that's right at 100 mi.

I tow a 24foot dump trailer 240 miles just to go to my ranch. There and back on one tank of diesel. One ton Dodge diesel.

Let us know when you get that accomplished.

 

[mbsieg]

But that doesn't work for most people. Stopping at a hotel costs time. Time is money. So isa hotel bill.

I tow a 24foot dump trailer 240 miles just to go to my ranch. There and back on one tank of diesel. One ton Dodge diesel.

Let us know when you get that accomplished.

Borrow my buddies dump trailer all the time. Don't tow it 240 mi but I don't need to either. But I did pull a tractor and an equipment trailer 650 mi no problem. You guys don't understand when you know the limitations it doesn't bother you. We keep talking about the same points over and over and over and over. Saying you can't do it, when it's been done. You're constantly trying to compare 3/4 and 1 ton Dodge diesels to a half ton pickup. It's irrational.

You're definitely old enough to remember the early '80s pickups. Didn't have that big of gas tanks. These huge fuel tanks have only come around in the last 20 years. I owned a 1980 Chevy 4x4 pickup that had one 16 gallon tank. I couldn't make it as far with that pickup as I do with my lightning.

 

[FrancSevin]

Borrow my buddies dump trailer all the time. Don't tow it 240 mi but I don't need to either. But I did pull a tractor and an equipment trailer 650 mi no problem. You guys don't understand when you know the limitations it doesn't bother you. We keep talking about the same points over and over and over and over. Saying you can't do it, when it's been done. You're constantly trying to compare 3/4 and 1 ton Dodge diesels to a half ton pickup. It's irrational.

You're definitely old enough to remember the early '80s pickups. Didn't have that big of gas tanks. These huge fuel tanks have only come around in the last 20 years. I owned a 1980 Chevy 4x4 pickup that had one 16 gallon tank. I couldn't make it as far with that pickup as I do with my lightning.

So you are going to compare the inefficient vehicles 40 years ago to modern EV range. Bullfeathers.
EV's must compete with the modern fleet of gas and diesel. When it comes to range, and capacity, they simply don't.
The truth is modern vehicles get remarkable mileage compared to older carbureted versions.
I smell desperation.