Gasohol crap? and starting this summer

[BoyToys]

Just sharing a recent frustration. I run up to my cabin twice a month, and while there lay hands on my Imp so she doesn't get too lonely waiting for white stuff.
And of course I fire her up just to keep things lubricated. The last few times she's taking a lot of cranking to fire up. I have an electric fuel pump in-line with the mechanical pump, that I'll run for a half a minute to fill the carb float bowl. Carb is rebuilt and accelerator pump is squirting gas, choke is set dependent on the ambient temperature....but too much cranking before she fires. Will fire and run fine instantly if I squirt in some starting fluid.

My guess is crap gas with a layer of water sitting on the bottom of the tank. There's only about 2.5 gallons of E10 in the tank and I suspect the alcohol has absorbed a bunch of water from the air. I did put Stabil in the tank last winter but I don't think that stuff guards against water absorption.

Thoughts? I'm thinking of draining most of the gas and refilling with high buck ethanol free 91 octane.

 

[pixie]

I think you are doing the right thing. I don't put ethanol in anything I have to cart the gas to.....chainsaws, 6 and 13 and 20 HP motors, my J5... nothing that doesn't drive to the gas station

It does cost more but having generators and all that other stuff Start is Way worth it !!!

 

[BoyToys]

We have but on station in town that offers ethanol free; just the other day filled up my air cooled turbo Porsche at around $5.45/gallon. Ugh. Welcome to Washington state, the second highest in the nation next to Hawaii.
Good points on anything that sits and doesn't regularly see a gas station. The P car sleeps all winter, I drain my home snowblower each spring, and I guess I'll be switching to ethanol free for the Imp. Hope that does the trick.

 

[bczoom]

There's some good fuel additives that'll help. I like SeaFoam. I don't care for StaBil as I don't think it's nearly as good.
If you're using E10 gas, IMHO you have to run the engine at least monthly.
If your engine doesn't run at all or runs really rough, look at "Mechanic in a bottle". That stuff really works but I'm pretty sure you should not leave it in your fuel system so when you use it (I only apply it to about a gallon of gas), use up whatever you've mixed.

 

[Reaper]

I have heard and experienced first hand that once you use starting fluid to start an engine, you will forever have to use it to start an engine. Have experienced this with both gas and diesil engines so dont be alarmed if you are stuck having to do it from now on.
As for Mechanic in a bottle, more than one small engine repair shop has told me that they have had to work on many engines after the owners have used it in their engines. I have not used it so I cant speak from experience on it but there are many youtube videos advising against using it. I prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

[BoyToys]

There's some good fuel additives that'll help. I like SeaFoam. I don't care for StaBil as I don't think it's nearly as good.
If you're using E10 gas, IMHO you have to run the engine at least monthly.
If your engine doesn't run at all or runs really rough, look at "Mechanic in a bottle". That stuff really works but I'm pretty sure you should not leave it in your fuel system so when you use it (I only apply it to about a gallon of gas), use up whatever you've mixed.

And the other part worth mentioning is to keep the tank plumb full at the end of the season. That limits air contact and water absorption.
Now if I would only follow my own advice and not leave a scant 2 gallons in a 20 gallon tank all summer.

 

[BoyToys]

I have heard and experienced first hand that once you use starting fluid to start an engine, you will forever have to use it to start an engine. Have experienced this with both gas and diesil engines so dont be alarmed if you are stuck having to do it from now on.
As for Mechanic in a bottle, more than one small engine repair shop has told me that they have had to work on many engines after the owners have used it in their engines. I have not used it so I cant speak from experience on it but there are many youtube videos advising against using it. I prefer to err on the side of caution.

I used starting fluid just once last week, if only to rule out weak ignition. I don't want to make it a practice, just there in my tool box for emergencies.

 

[bczoom]

As for Mechanic in a bottle, more than one small engine repair shop has told me that they have had to work on many engines after the owners have used it in their engines.

It works but as I mentioned, DO NOT leave it in your fuel system for more than a day or so. If you leave it in there for more than a couple days, yes, I've heard it causes problems.

 

[thepooguy]

either it'll start or it wont

 

[mbsieg]

One way to stop the water issue with ethanol fuel is to go to your local auto parts store and see if they have any of the moisture absorbing items. A lot of times they hang from a string and lay in the bottom of your tank and absorb the water. With metal tanks, this works very well where you get temperature swings and constant condensation.

Many other places to purchase this. This is just a quick and easy. Very expensive option. LOL

PIG, 9 in Lg, 1 in Dia, Fuel Tank Water absorption - 820C34|WTR200 - Grainger https://share.google/4Lnqlq4uPiCOb8t2v

 

[BoyToys]

One way to stop the water issue with ethanol fuel is to go to your local auto parts store and see if they have any of the moisture absorbing items. A lot of times they hang from a string and lay in the bottom of your tank and absorb the water. With metal tanks, this works very well where you get temperature swings and constant condensation.

Many other places to purchase this. This is just a quick and easy. Very expensive option. LOL

PIG, 9 in Lg, 1 in Dia, Fuel Tank Water absorption - 820C34|WTR200 - Grainger https://share.google/4Lnqlq4uPiCOb8t2v

Funny, I was just theorizing about hanging a packet of moisture absorbing material in the air space above the gas.

 

[BoyToys]

Good responses, thanks kids!
I'm on the fence regarding all the purported stabilizers...probably because I have this science based education that makes me far short of an expert but gives me a deeper perspective. Stabilizers are probably fine for slowing down the natural degradation of fuel hydrocarbons primarily as the result of oxidation and evaporation.
But alcohol, being hygroscopic, is going to bind moisture from the air and eventually form a layer of water-rich fuel/alcohol in the bottom of the tank, the first stuff sucked into the engine. Add whatever magical marvel mystery potion you want and it won't stop alcohol from...well...being alcohol and it's love affair with water. At most, some of these "solvents" may help disperse and keep the water in suspension, not a bad thing, but not really of much worth in a static fuel tank sitting for months feeding a carburetor vs. fuel injected and constantly being mixed with a return line.
So: Keep oxygen and water away by keeping the tank full during long storage periods. Add a stabilizer...it has a purpose and will help clean carbs and intake deposits.

 

[Reaper]

One way to stop the water issue with ethanol fuel is to go to your local auto parts store and see if they have any of the moisture absorbing items. A lot of times they hang from a string and lay in the bottom of your tank and absorb the water. With metal tanks, this works very well where you get temperature swings and constant condensation.

Many other places to purchase this. This is just a quick and easy. Very expensive option. LOL

PIG, 9 in Lg, 1 in Dia, Fuel Tank Water absorption - 820C34|WTR200 - Grainger https://share.google/4Lnqlq4uPiCOb8t2v

Very interesting on those! Was not aware of them.

 

[zspryte]

Visited this rabbit hole a while back. Learned condensation is responsible for nearly all the water that is in your gas tank. While ethanol in gas can absorb water moisture from the air, it happens very slowly. So keep your tank full! Also found info on what happens when water does get into a gasoline.

Ethanol in E10 gas will combine with water and remain mixed with the gasoline provided there is not too much water (< 0.5%). In this state the water in the E10 gas barely impact engine starting or performance. When the water percentage gets too high, a phase change happens causing the ethanol-water mix to separate from the gas and settle to the bottom of the tank. This ethanol-water mix is corrosive, won't run an engine and won't remix with the gasoline above it. As the gasoline above the ethanol/water mix no longer contains ethanol, it has a much lower octane and is pretty useless too.

Ethanol-free gas can only absorb a very small amount of water (< 0.05%) - so a tenth or less of what E10 can absorb. Cross the limit and any excess water will accumulate on the tank's bottom. If you use a water/fuel separator/filter maybe you can deal with it. And if you add an alcohol product to remove water, you are back in an E10-like situation.

This suggests that for small amounts of water in a gas tank, ethanol-free gas might be more problematic depending upon your tank configuration. That said, ethanol containing gas holds water and can corrode things in the fuel system that don't like water. Unclear which is the lesser evil.

 

[BoyToys]

Visited this rabbit hole a while back. Learned condensation is responsible for nearly all the water that is in your gas tank. While ethanol in gas can absorb water moisture from the air, it happens very slowly. So keep your tank full! Also found info on what happens when water does get into a gasoline.

Ethanol in E10 gas will combine with water and remain mixed with the gasoline provided there is not too much water (< 0.5%). In this state the water in the E10 gas barely impact engine starting or performance. When the water percentage gets too high, a phase change happens causing the ethanol-water mix to separate from the gas and settle to the bottom of the tank. This ethanol-water mix is corrosive, won't run an engine and won't remix with the gasoline above it. As the gasoline above the ethanol/water mix no longer contains ethanol, it has a much lower octane and is pretty useless too.

Ethanol-free gas can only absorb a very small amount of water (< 0.05%) - so a tenth or less of what E10 can absorb. Cross the limit and any excess water will accumulate on the tank's bottom. If you use a water/fuel separator/filter maybe you can deal with it. And if you add an alcohol product to remove water, you are back in an E10-like situation.

This suggests that for small amounts of water in a gas tank, ethanol-free gas might be more problematic depending upon your tank configuration. That said, ethanol containing gas holds water and can corrode things in the fuel system that don't like water. Unclear which is the lesser evil.

Great analysis and description. I'm leaning toward non ethanol as perhaps the lesser of two evils.
Either way, keeping the tank full...especially during long storage...is probably the best remedy. I do that with my bike and collecter car during winter storage with no issues.

 

[DAVENET]

I have a poly tank (after the steel OEM turned into a screen). During the last run of the season I add the Stabil Marine formula (blue) to my non-ethanol gas. I also add 10 gallons of AvGas to that mix. It has MANY more stabilizers that allow the fuel to sit for a long time and still be viable. Think general aviation aircraft sitting on a hot ramp and not flying for months (sometimes years). And within reason 95% will fire up with limited assistance. I top it off on the way home to fill the tank void. After it's home I also pop the supply side hose off the electric fuel pump and let the engine run straight AvGas for about ten minutes.

Overkill yes, but I also have zero issues with startups or next seasons running.

 

[zspryte]

As a shot of starter resolves things, crud or water in the fuel may not be the issue. Could a little starter make either problem go away instantly? Maybe or maybe the gas is just old and degraded. As gas degrades its volatility decreases. Your old gas's volatility may be good enough to run the engine but not sufficient to get it started. Add a little starter fluid and boom. If that is the case a little fresh gas added to the tank could resolve things. BTW - how old was the gas before you added the StaBil in?

 

[BoyToys]

As a shot of starter resolves things, crud or water in the fuel may not be the issue. Could a little starter make either problem go away instantly? Maybe or maybe the gas is just old and degraded. As gas degrades its volatility decreases. Your old gas's volatility may be good enough to run the engine but not sufficient to get it started. Add a little starter fluid and boom. If that is the case a little fresh gas added to the tank could resolve things. BTW - how old was the gas before you added the StaBil in?

Those are my thoughts too. Probably this time last year I gassed up with around 8 gallons and put Stabil in at that time. I suspect volatility degradation. Wil run fine once started, just initial fire is taking longer than it should.
I think I'll try to siphon out most of the 2 gallons or so and dump in 5 gallons worth of fresh next time I'm up there. I bet that corrects things.

 

[NorthernRedneck]

I think you are doing the right thing. I don't put ethanol in anything I have to cart the gas to.....chainsaws, 6 and 13 and 20 HP motors, my J5... nothing that doesn't drive to the gas station

It does cost more but having generators and all that other stuff Start is Way worth it !!!

One thing to consider about the higher octane fuel. And this is coming from a bad personal experience last year helping my brother with his race car. He was running the higher octane fuel from the pump at a gas station. His engine blew after 2 races. Bad gas from the station filled with water when we took a sample from his fuel tank. He switched over to straight racing fuel and hasn't had any problems since. The issue with the higher octane fuel is it sits in the storage tanks longer and breaks down.

 

[redsqwrl]

I believe you have a solid plan (post number one)

Ill be firing up this later today. It Sat 7 years. The tank is 1/3rd fuel of what was gas.

Ill verify spark is present by hand activating the points.

I will spend most of my time picking the green or blue residue from stabil that set up like concrete everywhere in the carb.

The mechanical pump has been bypassed by a crappy electric solenoid type pump. It will be ignored in lieu of a squeeze ball (I use a gravity fed fuel system during these exploratory missions)

It will start, it will run good.

Its likely with the short no load runs you are slowly fowling your plugs and washing down your piston rings. Theres no harm in that but your cranking time is the result. DaveN airplane analogy is perfect if those engines are started, they are going flying.
And yes starting fluid is an addicting drug for internal combustion engines. My shop teachers said it dried/washed out the rings

 

[zspryte]

Those are my thoughts too. Probably this time last year I gassed up with around 8 gallons and put Stabil in at that time. I suspect volatility degradation. Wil run fine once started, just initial fire is taking longer than it should.
I think I'll try to siphon out most of the 2 gallons or so and dump in 5 gallons worth of fresh next time I'm up there. I bet that corrects things.

Everyone is focusing on the gas, ethanol and water, but no one is talking about the 600 lbs gorilla in the room. Last fall 8 gallons went in and 2 were left come summer. Clearly, the problem is BoyToys isn't using his snowcat enough. Had he used it more and had to refill the tank four or five times, he won't have had to start this thread!

 

[BoyToys]

Everyone is focusing on the gas, ethanol and water, but no one is talking about the 600 lbs gorilla in the room. Last fall 8 gallons went in and 2 were left come summer. Clearly, the problem is BoyToys isn't using his snowcat enough. Had he used it more and had to refill the tank four or five times, he won't have had to start this thread!

Ok, I stand chastised!
I probably ran maybe 8 gallons through it last winter, just putting around pushing snow and shaking her down for her first season. This season I hope to burn a boat load more fuel. Run her dry and top up come the spring mud season.