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DUAL BATTERY SYSTEM.

Snowcat Operations

Snowcat Operations

Active member
Ok there has been alot of talk about dual battery systems of late. Who has pictures we can check out? Since EVERY snowcat should have a dual setup this should be a great thread. I know I will be running dual batteries but havent decided exactly which ones (brand) to run yet. Also I do know in a dual bettery set up that both batteries need to be the exact same. They should also be made about the same time. Thats pretty much all I know about a dual battery system. My goal is to get the guys who really know what they are talking about to go over in detail how a dual battery system should be properly set up. If you have a picture of the correct switches or what ever please post as well.
 
For info and ideas, go over to www.ridesidebyside.com and do a search for "dual batteries" or "battery".

There's been a lot of great discussions and they discuss the isolators, stators, regulators...

I would also recommend you consider deep cycle batteries. They can run your accessories for a lot longer and still have a decent reserve. I've heard lots of good things about the Optima.
 
Optima was my first choice (Yellow Top) but have been looking into the Odyssey batteries as well. The Optima Yellow tops are a deep cycle and a starting battery.
 
Re: Parallel Bateries.

Lead Acid batteries are about 2 Volts per cell and their specific gravity varies with the amount of charge. 2 disimilar batteries hooked up in parallel will eventually discharge each other. Sometimes it only takes a day! If you do have an application that requires batteries to be run in parallel, try to get ones that have the same manufacturing numbers and dates, right off the shelf, side by side. Gell cells are nice, and seem to be able to withstand a bit more cold than conventional liquid type Lead Acid batteries. But they are pretty spendy. If the leads between the batteries are long enough and provide enough resistance, it is possible to get dissimilar batteries to work on a limited basis. I recomended the Boat Battery switch, but there are also various Isolator relays available. They are supposed to be able to sense when the charge circuit(generator/alternator) is active and allow both batteries to get charged, then when the vehicle is not running it only allows you to use power for say a camper, out of one of the batteries, isolating the other just for starting the vehicle. I have one of these on my Snow Cat Hauler, a 94 Diesel that already had 2 batteries, to keep a 3rd battery for the winch charged up. Unfortunately the 3 battery had a slightly higher voltage than my original truck batteries and wanted to discharce them when the truck sat for long periods of time. I operate it by a manual switch now. As for the Battery Boat switch, I get them from Blanchard Auto Electric, which is a wholesaler that supplies auto parts stores all over the state. I just threw out their catalog, someone like Grote, listed over a dozen variations on the switch. One should be able to find it on the net. After trying varioius relay arraingements, isolator charge diodes, and boat switches I have resigned to the baot switch as it is simple and usually doesn't have complications.
 
Back in my college days I ran dual battery setup in my jeep.. first battery was set up in the normal fashion.. second battery sat on the floor board on the passenger's side.. connected by jumper cables. Every time I got low on juice(engine sputter) I'd just reach over and clamp on the positive terminal. I didn't have enough money to buy a new alternator. On a trip home from PA to MD one night.. ended up turning around and having to drive on 95N w/ no headlights.
 
Ok I looked there are a dozen places listing battery switches, with pics. Some of the switches were in the 30 to 40 $ range.
 
I'm far from an electrical guy, but I do know that Guest makes top grade stuff. I also know enough to know that higher ratings are better than lower ratings.

Guest 2300a battery selector is roughly $135 list price, can be found for about $65 from the discount boating suppliers. This switch will handle 360 Amps continuous, 600 Amps momentary (Guest rates momentary as a 5 minute duration). The case is glass-filled polycarbonate and they claim to have much greater contact area than the lower priced switches. Guest makes a heavier duty version than this one too. There are dozens of cheaper switches, but this is what I was thinking of using.

Given my location in Indiana, it is unlikely that I will ever be far from help, but I do know that being stuck is a PITA, even if I can walk to help. I guess I'd rather have a high margin of safety and spend $10 or $20 extra for top-of-the-line reliablity if I can get it.
 

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VW starters only draw about 200 Amps, maybe less. Don't need a 1000Amp rated switch. The "Start" duration is usually less than a minute.
 
The premier battery switch is made by Cole Hersee. It is used on fire trucks and ambulances that can't suffer from electrical problems. Here is the one that I use, and it is often found on ebay at a good price. They are bullet proof and I have never had one fail to work properly.
 

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Mike, while I love Go2Marine as a source for hard to find parts, they sell at LIST prices most of the time. You can find the same things for 2/3rds to 1/2 the price if you search harder!
 
Re: Parallel Bateries.

Lyndon said:
After trying varioius relay arraingements, isolator charge diodes, and boat switches I have resigned to the boat switch as it is simple and usually doesn't have complications.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with LYNDON. Lets keep the system simple and reliable. The Boat switch seems to be the type of switch. Some feel a higher amperage switch is better. As Lyndon pointed out its not needed but still to each his own and is certainly better than gonig with a cheaper inferior unit. OK so now how about the batteries?

I know that gell batteries last alot longer than a regular battery. AND in our application were vibration is high a gel battery to me at least is a must. Vibration KILLS regular batteries in a matter of months! So we know we want gel batteries but which brand?

SO WHICH BRAND BATTERY?
 
B_Skurka said:
Mike, while I love Go2Marine as a source for hard to find parts, they sell at LIST prices most of the time. You can find the same things for 2/3rds to 1/2 the price if you search harder!
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, Actully I was just using that to show the type of switches. If you have a better source then please post it OR as in my 4x4 Expedition group forum does is a group buy. MAYBE we can set up a group buy on the switches and other items? I can get my yellow top Optimas for about $140.00 at Costco. Maybe we can do better?
 
Dual Batteries are quite common in the RV world too. Don't overlook the battery isolators they use on them.
 
Yes OhioTC18,
They are a great little device. But as Lyndon has pointed out the easiest and most simple device (boat battery switch) is the most reliable. I happen to agree. I already have a pre departure / start check list. I will include the switch in the start and stop list.
 
I used the Cole hersey switch pictured on 2 machines and it worked well. Earl's machine which is in my shop right now has one. It's rated at twice what it need's to be and was easy to mount out of sight below the dash.
 
Re: Gell Cells:

I had the following experience with gell cells: My boss in Prudhoe Bay Alaska purchased these 2 Cat generators from the surplus yard. They were each in a 46' dual axel truck trailer and had been sitting there for about 9 months. He had me and his head mechanic go over to check them out before buying them. Each generator had a huge battery box with 2 "two hander's", which are batteries that can only be picked up by 2 people. They are about the largest automotive battery available. The second trailer/generator had a pair of automotive sized gell cells. After they made the deal I took a 10 wheel tractor over to BP's surplus yard and hauled the first one away to our shop at Frontier Pad, about 12 miles away. It was around 30 below and I didn't even try to start the Genset, instead I put it in our huge shop building which had 12 bays, each had a 24 by 24 door, that's feet! and were drive thru. While that one was thawing out I drove the tractor back to BP's surplus yard and rocked the other trailer loose from a snow bank and brought it back to frontier pad. After thawing out for only about 30 minutes the Unit with the 2 comparitively small gell cells started right up to the complete and total amazement of myself and the other mechanics. The other Genset, with the 2 huge Cat batteries wouldn't start and we had to replace the batteries. At 30 below a battery will survive only if it is fully charged, otherwise they freeze and crack open. Gell cells don't seem to mind being run at wierd angles or even sideways so they are a prime candidate for Snow Cats. My associate Earl runs them in his ST4, his car and Jeeps, as well as for his winch on his trailer. They do seem to last longer. And the previous writer was absolutely correct when he said that vibration is a batteries worst enemy. I wrote a paper on battery technology in the late 60's (wow is it that long ago?) and things havn't changed for liquid filled batteries. The Vibration actually shakes the plates apart. All the studies showed that for Lead Acid's and Nickel Cadmium liquid filled "B" batteries this is true. Over charging was number 2 on the list as I recall. It is reasonable then that the Gell cell would be less saseptable to vibration due to it's construction.
 
Re: "A" & "B" batteries.

Oh yes,Type "A" or Class "A" batteries are non rechargeable like carbon zinc and alkaline. Class "B" is a rechargeable. A recent article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science was describing some "newley Invented" Sea water battery. The editors didn't know that the US Navy had been using them for 20 years in Sonobouy's. I disassembled one still new in the crate from 1967 that had a Sea water electrolite battery. It took a few minutes to figgure out why there was no electrolite in the battery and a small port that led to the outside. They were designed to be dropped from aircraft to listen for submarine traffic.Once they hit the water the battery got a fresh charge of electrolite and it started transmitting. I have no Idea what class of battery they would be!?
 
Re: "A" & "B" batteries.

Lyndon said:
Type "A" or Class "A" batteries are non rechargeable like carbon zinc and alkaline. Class "B" is a rechargeable.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the definition of A and B batteries has changed over the years.

Until transistors came into general use both were dry, the A is 1 1/2 volts for the tube (or valve for Mith) filaments and the B pack is high voltage for the plate and screen supply. B packs came in 22 1/2, 45, 67 1/2, and 90 volts. There was also a C pack at 7 1/2 volts for the bias supply in a few radios.

My Zenith Transoceanic takes an A battery and a 67 1/2 volt B pack.

On Saturday night if the batteries started failing during the Grand Ol Opry you could put them on the back of the wood stove to heat them up and get a few more minutes of music before they totally failed.

One of the products that started the Galvin Company, the predecessor to Motorola, was a battery eliminator to take the place of the dry cells and allow the radio to operate from house current.


Jim
 
I would recomend using a battery isolator or a solinoid. With a battery switch, you have to remember to turn it to both batteries to charge the secondary. I have had issues with my boat in the ocean-very difficult leson!

Here is a simple schematic for using a starter solinoid of the type on older Ford vehicles. An ignition source powers the solinoid in the primary position, this stops the batteries from being connected unless the engine running. In the second position solinoid power is supplied by the second battery.
 

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So does anyone have a favorite brand of gell type batteries? I am leaning towards the Odyssey batteries myself. I have had great luck with the Optimas but have my eye on two 1,200 CCA Odyssey batteries. These are about the same size as the Optima Yellow top at 750 CCA.
 
No "Favorites" on the type of Gell Cell, but as far as the solenoid goes you have to get one that is rated for continuous operation. Most starter relays will burn up if left on for any period of time. The one's used in forklifts are available in continuous duty versions. The 'emergency stop' relay that is esentially the ON/OFF switch for a fork lift is a good choice. The cole hersey catatog lists some that are designed to stay on continuously. I remember those high voltage batteries reffered to above, they were not the type you tested with your tounge! When I wrote the paper on battery technology in high school I based the classification of the batteries on material I got from Gould or Exide, that classed the rechargeables and non rechargeables. They were just developing the Sulpher/Sodium and Lithium chloride batteries back then. Sulpher/Sodium's were a wash because the liquid Sodium metal had to be kept at several hundred degrees in a molten state and would explode on contact with water. Edison invented the Nickel Iron battery and it worked good but had corrosion issues. The Germans later improved on the Nickel Iron by making it the Nickel Cadmium, with superior results. Instead of being limited to about 800 charge/discharge cycles as is a Lead/Acid, the NiCad is good for about 2500 charge/discharge cycles and can be washed out and the life extended another 1000 to 1500 cycles. The Sunbeam Alpine, and presumably the Tiger were the only cars I know of that were ever fitted with NiCad's from the factory. That's about all I remember from the paper, but I generated it around 1968, 38 years ago. I don't have a copy but I remember my younger sister being jealous when the high school science teacher showed it to her class saying that this was the kind of "report" they wanted to see. If one could get a car sized NiCad you wouldn't need dual batteries. NiCads are manufactured in a Gell Cell variety now. So much for batteries.
 
OK Now we have the battery type down. Now how about a source for some really cool Nickel coated copper wires? I once saw some battery cable that was nickle coated at a marine shop in Monterey. At the time I was the only one making custom battery cables for my friends and such. We used these mainly on our 4x4s and replaced the factory battery cables and winch cables. I was using welding cable and found these very cool brass or bronze battery connectors that had solder inside. I would take a torch and heat up the solder and dunk my cable end into it and held it till she cooled off. This was much better and cleaner looking than the crimp I had been using before.

OK so now we need some nickle coated wire and battery cables.
 
Nickel is a very hard metal and I doubt that you ever saw nickel wire. What you possibly saw was a nickel coated copper wire. The only place that I have ever experienced pure nickel wire was in applications where it was used as a resistance wire, such as in a automobile heater fan blower resistor. I vaguely remember one other application, but for the life of me, I can't remember how it was used, but it was about 1/2" and in a application where the current went through it and the wire would glow red. Marine wire applications use either a tin or sterling silver coated copper wire for corrosion resistance. I have a friend that is a retired Navy officer and he taught me to spray all connections that are subject to corrosion with a product called PDRP. That is the fancy term for cosmoline. If you do a Google search for PDRP, you will find places that sell it by the case. It is produced by Sherwin Williams. It protects from moisture, but it doesn't inhibit electrical conductivity. I solder my spliced connections whenever possible, unless it is in the house current system. Everything automotive is soldered with high grade electrical solder. Splicing automotive electrical wires sometimes is more of an art than just putting two wire together if you want it to look neat and professional........... Junk..
 
Try Annixter for the wire, or call Hardware Specialties in Seattle at 206-624-5785. electrical wire is about all they handel. Annixter is nation wide. They may not want to sell to you direct and will refer you to a local electrical supplier. Graybar is also a big time wire dealer. Hardware will cut lengths and has a warehouse about a mile square. If you can find a catalog or listing of wire types you'll find that there are hundreds of types of nickel plated wire currently available. Hardware Specialties has all the sizes of welding cable in every concievable color too. I like it for battery connections. For multiple vehicle applications forklift battery connectors are nice. Instead of having to keep a dozen batteries charged I only kept about half a dozen, and had the quick connect ends. Earls ST4 has 2 of these connectors and battery jumper cables in combinations of the connector on both ends and one that have jumper clips on one end and the plug on the other. I set up an entire fleet of vehicles in Prudhoe including generator light stands, big portable heaters, and welder generator sets this way. I fished them thru the grill so one didn't even have to open the hood to jump a vehicle. The mechanics loved it.
 
I have the same set up on my Dodge Power Wagon. I bought the kit from Warn and just used it to jump start my Thiokol. (Junkman) actually I ment nickle plated copper as seen in the other posts of this thread. I have a set of tin plated or coated bronze battery terminals. Lyndon is this nickle and tin the same stuff? I wouldnt think so but have to ask.
 
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