Civil war

[HarryG]

All I read is answers rhetoric and BS why we should not be there or why we should get out but NO exiting strategy.
Tell me how we do this? This won't be easy. Just how?

 

[dzalphakilo]

Maybe control the world's second largest oil reserve without opposition?

Please tell me that you're not stupid enough to think that if we killed every man woman and child in the country of Iraq and then "took over" for the oil that we would not have any opposition!

You bring up an interesting point though as to why we may actually be there.

 

[AndyM]

Please tell me that you're not stupid enough to think that if we killed every man woman and child in the country of Iraq and then "took over" for the oil that we would not have any opposition!

No, I'm not that stupid (thanks for the compliment). The point was that there wouldn't be any opposition from the Iraqis.

There are plenty of countries where the people need our "help" more than Iraq...
Sudan is an example, but there is little "incentive" for our government to do anything there.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Sudan is an example, but there is little "incentive" for our government to do anything there.

On that we agree 110%.

I don't think that we could ever get to the point where every civilian (sp?) was killed in Iraq for control of the country (or if we did, god have mercy on our souls).

 

[AndyM]

I don't think that we could ever get to the point where every civilian (sp?) was killed in Iraq for control of the country (or if we did, god have mercy on our souls).

I don't think it will get THAT far, but it's hard to tell hard far it will go or how many American or Iraqi lives will be taken... The world revolves around money and greed and power, and the people pulling the strings want more of it.

My point was the taking of any lives should not happen. However, those who want more money and power will do whatever it takes to get more of it, and they really don't care who gets in the way, whether American, Iraqi, or any other.

I don't want any part of any of this... Since I can't control it, I just want to sell my house and put a double-wide up on the ridge and distance myself as far from everything as possible.

 

[Glenn9643]

Something was said back in the thread...??? lesser of two evils... not much to choose from... whatever.
The last several presidential elections I've felt that way. No way in hell I could have voted for Clinton. Maybe, if he had inhaled??? Shit, I'd have voted for Jesse J before Bill and he's a complete fool. Al Gore? invented the internet and what else?
Guilty. Voted for GW. I've been embarrassed at times; I remember in particular when he was speaking (reading) I think at the Queen of E's birthday or something. The SOB couldn't even make a speech without reading from his notes.
In spite of his limitations I still think he was the best choice considering the choices I had. I'll step right up and say he's not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I still think he's basically a decent person trying to do the job. As for oil being the reason we're in Iraq? I think we need to think a little simpler in this case. He's trying to finish what Daddy didn't. Unless something else shows that's what I'll always believe brought us into this war. I vote for the person and not the party. It's sad when you have such poor choices as we've had the past several elections.

 

[jdwilson44]

Please tell me that you're not stupid enough to think that if we killed every man woman and child in the country of Iraq and then "took over" for the oil that we would not have any opposition!

You bring up an interesting point though as to why we may actually be there.

You have to seriously ask yourself why else would we be there? As some of the posters have mentioned there are plenty of places around the world that are just as big a shithole if not bigger shitholes than Iraq and we don't go around saving them do we? I don't seem to recall us making big plans to get the military into Rwanda when they were going around massacreing each other and we got our butts out of Somalia right quick when the shit started flying there because in the end we had no big interests to protect there.

Without the oil factor and influence from pro Israeli lobbyists what vital US interests would there be over in the Mideast for us? The US does not do "humanitarian" missions very often. If we want to save a country from itself maybe we ought to look closer to our own shores and make another run at trying to fix Haiti.

 

[jdwilson44]

All I read is answers rhetoric and BS why we should not be there or why we should get out but NO exiting strategy.
Tell me how we do this? This won't be easy. Just how?

The exit strategy issue is hard. The problem is that we definitely helped make the mess so we inherited the responsibility to clean it up. The way things are currently the only way I can see to get out is to start making subtle threats that we are going to just dump the whole thing and run. This might get some of the other countries in the Mideast and in Europe scared enough of the possible outcomes from that happening to stop their bitching and actually pitch in and help. Maybe dumping responsibility of policing the cities one by one back onto the Iraqis would allow us to draw down to the point where we could withdraw.

 

[OkeeDon]

The first thing we have to do is get over the arrogance of Bush and the Neocons. If we eat some humble pie, admit we made a mistake, and genuinely ask for help, we might get some. Unfortunately, that will never happen while the clueless ones are in charge. Three more years is a long time. By then, we will have more Americans killed in Iraq than in 9/11, and more Iraqis killed because of our invasion than were killed by Saddam. Maybe the only answer is impeachment. But, first, Cheney has to resign and someone responsible put in place to take over. How about Colin Powell?

 

[Junkman]

................

Without the oil factor and influence from pro Israeli lobbyists what vital US interests would there be over in the Mideast for us? The US does not do "humanitarian" missions very often. If we want to save a country from itself maybe we ought to look closer to our own shores and make another run at trying to fix Haiti.

I would have to believe that this is the oil influence that was the reason for our invading Iraq. As for the Pro Israeli lobbyist, I don't think that they gave a damn about Iraq. They knew that Iraq wasn't a threat, and the last time that Iraq was even thinking about becoming a nuclear power, the Israelis bombed the hell out of them and the rest of the Arab world just watched from the side lines. The Arab world might not like Israel, but they sure do respect there military might and after the 1967 war, learned not to piss them off. They can handle themselves without any help from us. They showed restraint in the Kuwait war and they haven't gotten involved in this present one. They pick there battles carefully and are not baited into situations.

How long did we support S.H in Iraq? Don't forget that Detroit actually gave him a key to their city when he visited the U.S.

That is because they were hoping that he would come to Detroit and stop the violence there with his same tactics he used in Iraq.

In spite of his limitations I still think he was the best choice considering the choices I had. I'll step right up and say he's not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I still think he's basically a decent person trying to do the job.

I don't think that Al Gore is much better than GW, but at least he doesn't have to have everyone else thinking for him. We didn't have much of a choice, but that is the fault of the people that voted in the primaries. They had the ability to make the choice and they picked the wrong one for all the wrong reasons. GW catered to the religious right and they rewarded him with the nomination. The religious right is a small minority, but they are very well organized and know how to get out the vote. Don't ever under estimate what they can do. While other groups are fighting and bickering trying to vie for publicity, the religious right has there act together.

As for oil being the reason we're in Iraq? I think we need to think a little simpler in this case. He's trying to finish what Daddy didn't. Unless something else shows that's what I'll always believe brought us into this war.

His father had the insight and knowledge not to push all the way to Baghdad because even he knew that it was a mistake and he didn't want to become a occupying power in a hostile environment. He stated the original reasons for going to war and accomplished the task and brought the troops home. If GW Jr. were half as smart as his father, he would have known that. Unfortunately, he surrounded himself with people that did the thinking for him, and all they could see was how to get hold of the Iraqi oil. They never thought past the invasion and as to how they were going to control the country. They thought that they would be welcomed with open arms. They failed to realize that no people have ever welcomed the invading army with open arms, only the army that came to liberate them from the invaders and left.

I vote for the person and not the party. It's sad when you have such poor choices as we've had the past several elections.

In politics, voting for the person and not the party is like believing that you marry the wife and don't inherit the family that she came from.

 

[OkeeDon]

Unfortunately, he surrounded himself with people that did the thinking for him, and all they could see was how to get hold of the Iraqi oil.

I think you have come closer to the truth than all the other posts in this thread. Remember, before the invasion, how Wolfowitz said the oil was going to pay to repair the damage? Do you think anyone would have supported the notion of invasion if they knew we were going to have to borrow money on our national debt in order to rebuild Iraq by ourselves?

What the Neocons failed to see was that Russia, France and Germany were not going to stand by and watch us get ahold of the Iraqi oil. I think some day history is going to show that we were damned close to WWIII, and if we would have followed through with our plans to take over the oil, we would have been fighting the Russians, French and Germans (they've all been our opponents at one time or another in the past; why not again?) We probably could have beaten them, but not without one of us possibly pulling the nuclear trigger. All of them had oil or industrial contracts that would not have been honored under our original plans. All of them are now being paid while we pay through the nose.

So, I think history will show that we had to back down, Big Time, and we've been playing catch up ever since.

It's sad to think how many brave American troops have died for this farce.

 

[jdwilson44]

I would have to believe that this is the oil influence that was the reason for our invading Iraq. As for the Pro Israeli lobbyist, I don't think that they gave a damn about Iraq. They knew that Iraq wasn't a threat, and the last time that Iraq was even thinking about becoming a nuclear power, the Israelis bombed the hell out of them and the rest of the Arab world just watched from the side lines. The Arab world might not like Israel, but they sure do respect there military might and after the 1967 war, learned not to piss them off. They can handle themselves without any help from us. They showed restraint in the Kuwait war and they haven't gotten involved in this present one. They pick there battles carefully and are not baited into situations.

From the following online article:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0ZmVjobOww8J:www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html%3Fid%3D110002840%2B%22max%2Bboot%22%2B%22key%2Btenet%2Bof%2Bneoconservatism%22&hl=en


and I quote:
Second, support for Israel--a key tenet of neoconservatism--is hardly confined to Jews; its strongest constituency in America happens to be among evangelical Christians.

One of the key architects of the Iraq war is a man by the name of Richard Perle who has made his support for Israel quite vocal - to the point where many have wondered which side he was really on.

You are correct about the respect that Israel gained after the 1967 - they lost a lot of that respect however after their retreats from Lebanon which has led directly to the suicide attacks that they have suffered from in recent years.

I wish I could agree with you on your comment "They can handle themselves without any help from us." The fact is that they have received substantial support from us. From the web page: http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

"Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries. "

I am glad to see that we can help provide them with such a high standard of living.

Why do I bring all of this up? Because the thought that our goverment is manipulated for the benefit of a another country is something that should be looked into. I do not pay my taxes to defend Israel - I pay them to defend THIS country. If there is any truth to any of this our soldiers are dying at least in part to defend a foreign country that could arguably be seen to have influenced our politics with money - money we gave them. Nice how that works isn't it?

 

[Junkman]

I haven't read the links, and I don't know this for certain, however, I believe that most of the foreign aid that we send to Israel is in the form of war munitions, such as planes, support parts, etc. Problem with politicians, is that they mask things under classifications that have no relevance to the actual facts. They also use classifications that are considered Government Secrets, so the general public has no idea of what any of it is about.

 

[jdwilson44]

I haven't read the links, and I don't know this for certain, however, I believe that most of the foreign aid that we send to Israel is in the form of war munitions, such as planes, support parts, etc. Problem with politicians, is that they mask things under classifications that have no relevance to the actual facts. They also use classifications that are considered Government Secrets, so the general public has no idea of what any of it is about.

I believe you are correct - a large part of the aid that is given to Israel is military equipment - which is exactly what the Arabs are all bitching about. We sell military hardware to the Israelis - or we basically give it to them - and they use that equipment against the Palestinians and other Arabs.

To put some perspective on the amount of aid that is given to Israel I did some Googling and pulled out a few numbers.

According to one site the population of Israel in 2002 was 6,029,529 .

According to this page: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=83&x_article=1070

The total amount of US aid to Israel in 2002 was $2.848 billion.

If I do a little math I come up $472.34 PER CITIZEN that Israel received in US aid for 2002.

I don't know what the average family size is in Israel but it is probably 3-4 people. This means that each family or household in Israel is the recipient of $1500 - $2000 of US taxpayer money during the year 2002. And this happens every year - it is not a one time thing. Pretty nice huh? I wish somebody would send me a couple of grand a year.

The issue is that all of this information is freely available on the internet - so it is know to the Palestinians and everybody else in the Arab world.

There is one simple truth at work here - money makes the world go round. We send a lot of money to Israel - and we send a lot of money to the Mideast thru the act of buying oil from them. We are in effect financing both sides of the Mideast problem - take away the money and the problem changes radically and you might be able to force some real change.