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Project Dual
- Thread starter Blackfoot Tucker
- Start date
Day Six: (The home air compressor is once again working properly. The replacement magnetic starter was different, and Scott told me how to connect all the wires properly.)
Due to the significant space limitations on the left side of the engine, the manifold required a number of modifications to achieve an acceptable result. We still aren’t done, but we’re pretty far along in the process. We needed to move the outlet flange forward quite a bit, and getting the rear cylinder’s exhaust gasses to flow in the desired direction required a bunch of work.
We had planned to move some things before working on the manifold, but decided to postpone the relocating and make some more headway on the manifold. (I'm not looking forward to the relocating phase.)
Earlier, we had added a wedge piece to align the rear cylinder’s runner with the rest of the manifold. Well, moving the outlet flange so far forward was going to have the rear cylinder’s gasses flowing in the wrong direction to join with the exhaust flow from the other three cylinders. To avoid that situation, we decided to cut off a big chunk of the rear cylinder’s runner and splice in a section from another manifold. But of course the respective parts did not align very well. So, Scott would clamp the various parts to the shop’s welding table, heat the part needing some persuasion red hot, and then put a large adjustable wrench on the part needing some encouragement. Generally the parts cooperated, though sometimes they needed a second heating and bending. By doing this he was able to get the individual pieces in reasonably good alignment before welding them. Here are a couple pics.
This is the outlet flange piece and the red section needed to be bent outward to make it wider. This is on the side of the manifold that faces the engine. (It had cooled a bit before I got my camera out and took the photo.)
Here, Scott is making more adjustments to the outlet flange after tack welding it to the manifold. He’s about to bend the red hot section down for better alignment with the manifold.
In true Gorilla fashion the parts fit together pretty well and the not-complete-but-pretty-far-along manifold is looking remarkably good.
After welding everything in the jig we let it cool and then bolted the manifold to the engine to check our progress. The current plan is to cut the outlet flange itself off, then shorten the runner where it attaches, and re-weld it in the shortened location. But we’ll also change the angle the flange is welded to the manifold to more optimally aim the exhaust outlet toward where it needs to go.
After it was initially welded, I wanted him to add some additional weld in places so I could make the parts blend more smoothly as part of my planned cosmetic enhancement. You should have heard the howls from the self-proclaimed “precision surgeon”. “It’s fine” as it is", “You can’t see it anyway”, you get the idea…. Now he is calling it his "Frankenstein manifold".
Here are some pics. You can see the runner to the outlet flange can be shortened substantially, and the angle of the flange itself can be repositioned as well. Yes, we need to add another threaded boss to attach the heat shield.
Due to the significant space limitations on the left side of the engine, the manifold required a number of modifications to achieve an acceptable result. We still aren’t done, but we’re pretty far along in the process. We needed to move the outlet flange forward quite a bit, and getting the rear cylinder’s exhaust gasses to flow in the desired direction required a bunch of work.
We had planned to move some things before working on the manifold, but decided to postpone the relocating and make some more headway on the manifold. (I'm not looking forward to the relocating phase.)
Earlier, we had added a wedge piece to align the rear cylinder’s runner with the rest of the manifold. Well, moving the outlet flange so far forward was going to have the rear cylinder’s gasses flowing in the wrong direction to join with the exhaust flow from the other three cylinders. To avoid that situation, we decided to cut off a big chunk of the rear cylinder’s runner and splice in a section from another manifold. But of course the respective parts did not align very well. So, Scott would clamp the various parts to the shop’s welding table, heat the part needing some persuasion red hot, and then put a large adjustable wrench on the part needing some encouragement. Generally the parts cooperated, though sometimes they needed a second heating and bending. By doing this he was able to get the individual pieces in reasonably good alignment before welding them. Here are a couple pics.
This is the outlet flange piece and the red section needed to be bent outward to make it wider. This is on the side of the manifold that faces the engine. (It had cooled a bit before I got my camera out and took the photo.)
Here, Scott is making more adjustments to the outlet flange after tack welding it to the manifold. He’s about to bend the red hot section down for better alignment with the manifold.
In true Gorilla fashion the parts fit together pretty well and the not-complete-but-pretty-far-along manifold is looking remarkably good.
After welding everything in the jig we let it cool and then bolted the manifold to the engine to check our progress. The current plan is to cut the outlet flange itself off, then shorten the runner where it attaches, and re-weld it in the shortened location. But we’ll also change the angle the flange is welded to the manifold to more optimally aim the exhaust outlet toward where it needs to go.
After it was initially welded, I wanted him to add some additional weld in places so I could make the parts blend more smoothly as part of my planned cosmetic enhancement. You should have heard the howls from the self-proclaimed “precision surgeon”. “It’s fine” as it is", “You can’t see it anyway”, you get the idea…. Now he is calling it his "Frankenstein manifold".
Here are some pics. You can see the runner to the outlet flange can be shortened substantially, and the angle of the flange itself can be repositioned as well. Yes, we need to add another threaded boss to attach the heat shield.
BFT i am kinda with scott on this it is starting to look pretty good to me , take it out and run it Steve said just put some black header paint on it and run it , at 7 MPH and the hood closed on one will see your remarkable job any way , I am sure it will be as good as it can be before you take it out
Travler,
My posts almost always lag where we actually are in terms of progress on a project. Typically, I’ll write the post in draft form and share it with Scott before posting. If he takes major exception to something, I’ll usually revise it (I pretty much expect some objection - it’s just his style). But that means there’s a delay between action and the forum post.
I’ll spill the beans and admit at this point the manifolds are essentially ready to be installed. The previous manifolds were installed with ARP 12-point stainless steel flange bolts. Those manifolds didn’t have heat shields, these do. GM used a stud and one nut to secure the exhaust manifold to the cylinder head, then the heat shield, and a second nut. I’ve ordered ARP stainless steel studs and 12-point nuts to attach the heat shields, and some short ARP 12-point stainless steel flange bolts to attach the heat shields to the manifolds. I‘ve found Allen's Fasteners in Needles, CA has an excellent selection, and while I hate to use the term “reasonable prices” on anything that comes from ARP, it's fair to say their prices are better than most.
We still need to re-route/re-plumb the transmission cooler lines, the engine oil cooler lines, the brake line and the hydraulic lines from the orbitrol to the steering cylinder. Thundercat is a 1980 model, and your 1544 is a 1986. During the interim period Tucker made a number of changes to the machines, one of them was relocating the orbitrol inside the cab. That would provide a lot more room for an exhaust system, but alas, we have the older setup with a steering column that goes through the floor to the orbitrol below. We’ve started the re-routing/re-plumbing process, and it’s slow and tedious. The brake line is just about finished and in theory the engine oil cooler flex lines have been done. I say “in theory”, because I’m not proud of how they look, and I think there’s some room for improvement. We’ve started on the orbitrol, but barely.
We’ll wait until the re-routing/re-plumbing phase is complete before installing the manifolds. Then it will be off to the exhaust shop….
Thanks Travler.
I looked at their website and they have a great selection. I like AN washers, and Scott hates them with a passion, or at least he pretends to. Specialty carries AN washer kits with an assortment of different sizes. That gives me an idea for a Christmas gift for The Gorilla!
As The Infamous WBJ1 would say, “MUAHAHAHA”.
Day Seven involved modifying the outlet flange and runner to get them into a more optimal configuration.
We had a section of 3” exhaust tubing with some bends in it laying around, and one bend was close to what we were going to need. We cut that from the rest of the tubing so we could use it for mock-up purposes. Then we bolted the manifold to the cylinder head and used the bent tube to visualize what changes we needed to make to the manifold.
Back to the shop and Scott cut the manifold runner, removing about 1 1/4” in front and 1" in back. This would both shorten the runner and change the angle of the outlet flange. Then he tack welded it in position and we took the modified manifold back to check our progress. We had removed the expanded metal side shields for better access, but in our fitting and mock-up attempts we wanted to ensure there was adequate clearance between the side shields and the exhaust tubing when the exhaust system is installed.
Here’s a pic of the runner section Scott removed.
We thought shortening the runner further would be beneficial, and it would also help to adjust the angle of the outlet flange some more. In addition, we wanted to slightly rotate the outlet flange to reposition the studs more optimally for the exhaust tubing to fit, as well as where the studs were in relation to the orbitrol.
Back to the shop for more refinement. Scott then fully welded the outlet flange in it’s new position on the shortened runner.
We also modified the heat shield which required a lot of cutting, and some bending, to account for all the changes we had made to the manifold itself. Finally, Scott welded on a threaded boss salvaged from a scrap piece of manifold for heat shield attachment purposes.
I took the manifolds home for their cosmetic enhancement to try and make all these modifications look better… so we can cover most of them up when we install the heat shields. Here are some pics of the manifolds. Right side.
Left side.
A "before" photo of both manifolds.
And an after.
In my last post I mentioned Scott had started referring to the manifold as his Frankenstein manifold (it’s comprised of six pieces from four different manifolds). My recollection is Frankenstein was not the monster, but rather the name of the doctor who created the monster. That would make Scott “Dr. Frankenstein”. However, in deference to the Mel Brooks movie "Young Frankenstein", I’ll change the spelling to the phonetically correct pronunciation “Fronkensteen”. Scott was of course quick to point out that would make me Igor (pronounced Eye-Gore in the movie).
Honestly, these manifolds exceeded my expectations as far as the way they fit and should allow a true dual exhaust system to be fitted to Thundercat. Of course they’re not perfect, but they’re a more than acceptable work product from a couple of knuckleheads.
But now the less fun aspects of rerouting the various lines begins….
We had a section of 3” exhaust tubing with some bends in it laying around, and one bend was close to what we were going to need. We cut that from the rest of the tubing so we could use it for mock-up purposes. Then we bolted the manifold to the cylinder head and used the bent tube to visualize what changes we needed to make to the manifold.
Back to the shop and Scott cut the manifold runner, removing about 1 1/4” in front and 1" in back. This would both shorten the runner and change the angle of the outlet flange. Then he tack welded it in position and we took the modified manifold back to check our progress. We had removed the expanded metal side shields for better access, but in our fitting and mock-up attempts we wanted to ensure there was adequate clearance between the side shields and the exhaust tubing when the exhaust system is installed.
Here’s a pic of the runner section Scott removed.
We thought shortening the runner further would be beneficial, and it would also help to adjust the angle of the outlet flange some more. In addition, we wanted to slightly rotate the outlet flange to reposition the studs more optimally for the exhaust tubing to fit, as well as where the studs were in relation to the orbitrol.
Back to the shop for more refinement. Scott then fully welded the outlet flange in it’s new position on the shortened runner.
We also modified the heat shield which required a lot of cutting, and some bending, to account for all the changes we had made to the manifold itself. Finally, Scott welded on a threaded boss salvaged from a scrap piece of manifold for heat shield attachment purposes.
I took the manifolds home for their cosmetic enhancement to try and make all these modifications look better… so we can cover most of them up when we install the heat shields. Here are some pics of the manifolds. Right side.
Left side.
A "before" photo of both manifolds.
And an after.
In my last post I mentioned Scott had started referring to the manifold as his Frankenstein manifold (it’s comprised of six pieces from four different manifolds). My recollection is Frankenstein was not the monster, but rather the name of the doctor who created the monster. That would make Scott “Dr. Frankenstein”. However, in deference to the Mel Brooks movie "Young Frankenstein", I’ll change the spelling to the phonetically correct pronunciation “Fronkensteen”. Scott was of course quick to point out that would make me Igor (pronounced Eye-Gore in the movie).
Honestly, these manifolds exceeded my expectations as far as the way they fit and should allow a true dual exhaust system to be fitted to Thundercat. Of course they’re not perfect, but they’re a more than acceptable work product from a couple of knuckleheads.
But now the less fun aspects of rerouting the various lines begins….
The Gorilla and hammers. Hmmm, that’s a bad combination. If a little force doesn’t work - hit it harder. If that doesn't work - get a bigger hammer. You get the idea….
And it’s easy to damage the surface, so you use a wood block... or something. The concept of using soft face or dead blow hammers rarely occurs to The Gorilla. I think it was in 2022, Trusty-Cook, a US dead blow hammer manufacturer, had a sale at Christmas and their blems were ridiculously reasonable and shipping was a bargain, too. I bought The Gorilla their biggest dead blow sledge hammer. Twelve pounds worth. I was hoping that would have a positive impact on his methods of persuasion.
Almost 18 months later... I’m not sure it’s been used.
These days my preferred SLC bolt supplier is Fastener Engineering. I get great customer service from James and their selection and pricing are pretty darn good. “The guy behind the counter” is crucially important, and many companies don’t seem to grasp that concept. To management, it’s "all about the cheap”, yet customers build relationships with the guy they work with, and that relationship breeds loyalty. Maybe they don’t understand my loyalty is to James, not the company.
Stainless steel fastener selection tends to be more limited, and that where Allen’s Fasteners comes in. I don’t know of any company in SLC that stocks stainless steel AN washers. Allen’s Fasteners has them in both various sizes, and thicknesses, and they’re inexpensive. That's a win all the way around.
Finally… an update:
Well, things came to a grinding halt for a bit. Scott went to Lake Powell on a fishing trip (and picked up the name “Catfish Slayer”). We’ve also tackled some automotive repair and maintenance projects.
The orbitrol in Thundercat has been making non-normal noises, such as chattering and/or groaning. We were pretty much clueless as to the problem so I reached out to Midwest Steering for their thoughts. They were somewhat stumped as well, but suggested I send it to them and they would put it on their test bench. With the hydraulic system completely drained of fluid, there is no better time, so I boxed it up and shipped it via USPS “Priority Mail”. If you’re thinking “Uh Oh, bad call BFT”, you’d be right.
Mailed on 5//29, it was supposed to be delivered on 6/2. Well, it didn’t even leave SLC until 6/5, and then no updates other than “It’s in transit and will arrive late”. It eventually got there on 6/12; ten days late. But... at least they didn’t lose it.
We completed the re-plumbing of the engine and transmission cooler lines. Here’s a pic of the engine cooler lines. (The vertical braided stainless steel lines are fuel supply and return lines. You can see the orbitrol has been removed from the steering column mount.)
We also decided on a minor electrical system upgrade. When we originally assembled Thundercat we used a 150 AMP fuse. That's great, but if it blows and you don’t have/can’t find a spare, you’re stuck. On both CHUGSzilla and the 1544 projects, we used 150 AMP re-settable circuit breakers, and decided to replace the fuse setup with one of those.
Then things started downhill… and picked up steam.
The thickness of the exhaust manifold flange on the stock 8.1 exhaust manifolds was thinner than the flange thickness on the manifolds we had been using, so those expensive ARP bolts were too long. My machinist friend in Vermont swears by ARP fasteners, and though I was not very impressed with them the first time around, I ordered another set of shorter ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts. Planning for future removal, I bought a lifetime supply of high temperature never seize, specifically made for stainless steel. We liberally applied this to the new bolts and started to install the manifolds. Then… "Oh… fudge” (that wasn’t the real word). Scott had installed, I think six bolts on the left side not fully torqued, but more than finger tight. When he went back to finish tightening the bolts, four of them got stuck. In a stainless steel on stainless steel situation, galling is a problem and using some lubricant helps prevent that. Well, this was stainless steel on cast iron, AND we had applied the never seize, so we were dumbfounded why. But, we had a problem because they would move a little, but that was it. More “Oh, “fudge”.
Using some WD-40 and working the bolt back and forth multiple times, Scott got one bolt out. But the other three? Ah, no. “Oh, fudge” went from bad to worse. Broken bolts are bad enough, broken stainless steel bolts magnifies the ass pain. We discussed removing the cylinder head and taking it to a machine shop, but that’s a lot of disassembly, and we didn’t want to do that, unless we had to. The other three bolts? We broke every one. Great. Just great.
I have previously mentioned buying tools Track Addict has recommended, and one of those was an Owatonna Tool Company jig for drilling out broken bolts. I had also bought some cobalt drill bits, which work better on stainless steel than standard High Speed Steel bits. We thought let’s give this a try before we remove the cylinder head. I had also told Scott, “If we have to remove the cylinder head, let’s change the cam”. Not wanting to go down that rabbit hole, he had extra incentive to make the broken bolt removal successful.
When drilling stainless steel the preferred technique is to use lower RPMs, cutting oil and lots of pressure. If you use higher RPMs and not much pressure you’ll work harden the surface, and now you have an even bigger problem. I started the drilling process using a 1/8” diameter drill bit in the drill jig’s alignment collar, and both Scott and I were really impressed how well that worked. It wasn’t like cutting butter, but it worked. Neither of us like the completely miss-named EZ Outs. In our opinion, they're a recipe for disaster.) So we upsized the drill bit three times and Scott used a special punch he has to carefully pick away at the bolt remnants. The process also requires using a tap, and a lot of patience is required, too. It took about 90 minutes per bolt, but we got them out.
Pics. Here’s Scott drilling out the first bolt. I have an old school Milwaukee 3/8” right angle drill, also called a Duck Bill drill. That was very helpful because of limited space for a typical drill.
A close up showing the jig. If you look to the right, you can see the other two broken bolts.
I’m not sure what we’ll use for fasteners at this point. The cheapest option would be to buy more ARP to replace the broken ones. But their track record on this project is less-then-optimal. GM used carbon steel studs, but way back when, researching the Internet showed those were somewhat problematic, and the conventional wisdom was to use ARP. I thought removing the factory studs and going with ARP was the smart thing to do, and would avoid problems down the road. Ha! But now, after doing more research on the OEM GM studs, they are grade 10.9, which is slighter better than grade 8 on US bolts. How much time and money did I waste on ARP? Too much.
The Infamous WBJ1 and I exchange texts from time to time, and we sometimes chat via phone. He asked me to “Say Hi to the Sweet Gorilla”. Yes, a totally absurd name. So, later that day I shared the text string with Scott, and he announced he is more properly called (I’m not making this up) “The Sweet, Knowledgeable and Kind Gorilla”. OMG. Unbelievable….
Well, things came to a grinding halt for a bit. Scott went to Lake Powell on a fishing trip (and picked up the name “Catfish Slayer”). We’ve also tackled some automotive repair and maintenance projects.
The orbitrol in Thundercat has been making non-normal noises, such as chattering and/or groaning. We were pretty much clueless as to the problem so I reached out to Midwest Steering for their thoughts. They were somewhat stumped as well, but suggested I send it to them and they would put it on their test bench. With the hydraulic system completely drained of fluid, there is no better time, so I boxed it up and shipped it via USPS “Priority Mail”. If you’re thinking “Uh Oh, bad call BFT”, you’d be right.
Mailed on 5//29, it was supposed to be delivered on 6/2. Well, it didn’t even leave SLC until 6/5, and then no updates other than “It’s in transit and will arrive late”. It eventually got there on 6/12; ten days late. But... at least they didn’t lose it.
We completed the re-plumbing of the engine and transmission cooler lines. Here’s a pic of the engine cooler lines. (The vertical braided stainless steel lines are fuel supply and return lines. You can see the orbitrol has been removed from the steering column mount.)
We also decided on a minor electrical system upgrade. When we originally assembled Thundercat we used a 150 AMP fuse. That's great, but if it blows and you don’t have/can’t find a spare, you’re stuck. On both CHUGSzilla and the 1544 projects, we used 150 AMP re-settable circuit breakers, and decided to replace the fuse setup with one of those.
Then things started downhill… and picked up steam.
The thickness of the exhaust manifold flange on the stock 8.1 exhaust manifolds was thinner than the flange thickness on the manifolds we had been using, so those expensive ARP bolts were too long. My machinist friend in Vermont swears by ARP fasteners, and though I was not very impressed with them the first time around, I ordered another set of shorter ARP 12-point stainless steel bolts. Planning for future removal, I bought a lifetime supply of high temperature never seize, specifically made for stainless steel. We liberally applied this to the new bolts and started to install the manifolds. Then… "Oh… fudge” (that wasn’t the real word). Scott had installed, I think six bolts on the left side not fully torqued, but more than finger tight. When he went back to finish tightening the bolts, four of them got stuck. In a stainless steel on stainless steel situation, galling is a problem and using some lubricant helps prevent that. Well, this was stainless steel on cast iron, AND we had applied the never seize, so we were dumbfounded why. But, we had a problem because they would move a little, but that was it. More “Oh, “fudge”.
Using some WD-40 and working the bolt back and forth multiple times, Scott got one bolt out. But the other three? Ah, no. “Oh, fudge” went from bad to worse. Broken bolts are bad enough, broken stainless steel bolts magnifies the ass pain. We discussed removing the cylinder head and taking it to a machine shop, but that’s a lot of disassembly, and we didn’t want to do that, unless we had to. The other three bolts? We broke every one. Great. Just great.
I have previously mentioned buying tools Track Addict has recommended, and one of those was an Owatonna Tool Company jig for drilling out broken bolts. I had also bought some cobalt drill bits, which work better on stainless steel than standard High Speed Steel bits. We thought let’s give this a try before we remove the cylinder head. I had also told Scott, “If we have to remove the cylinder head, let’s change the cam”. Not wanting to go down that rabbit hole, he had extra incentive to make the broken bolt removal successful.
When drilling stainless steel the preferred technique is to use lower RPMs, cutting oil and lots of pressure. If you use higher RPMs and not much pressure you’ll work harden the surface, and now you have an even bigger problem. I started the drilling process using a 1/8” diameter drill bit in the drill jig’s alignment collar, and both Scott and I were really impressed how well that worked. It wasn’t like cutting butter, but it worked. Neither of us like the completely miss-named EZ Outs. In our opinion, they're a recipe for disaster.) So we upsized the drill bit three times and Scott used a special punch he has to carefully pick away at the bolt remnants. The process also requires using a tap, and a lot of patience is required, too. It took about 90 minutes per bolt, but we got them out.
Pics. Here’s Scott drilling out the first bolt. I have an old school Milwaukee 3/8” right angle drill, also called a Duck Bill drill. That was very helpful because of limited space for a typical drill.
A close up showing the jig. If you look to the right, you can see the other two broken bolts.
I’m not sure what we’ll use for fasteners at this point. The cheapest option would be to buy more ARP to replace the broken ones. But their track record on this project is less-then-optimal. GM used carbon steel studs, but way back when, researching the Internet showed those were somewhat problematic, and the conventional wisdom was to use ARP. I thought removing the factory studs and going with ARP was the smart thing to do, and would avoid problems down the road. Ha! But now, after doing more research on the OEM GM studs, they are grade 10.9, which is slighter better than grade 8 on US bolts. How much time and money did I waste on ARP? Too much.
The Infamous WBJ1 and I exchange texts from time to time, and we sometimes chat via phone. He asked me to “Say Hi to the Sweet Gorilla”. Yes, a totally absurd name. So, later that day I shared the text string with Scott, and he announced he is more properly called (I’m not making this up) “The Sweet, Knowledgeable and Kind Gorilla”. OMG. Unbelievable….
)))))something to do a search on. I use a lot of stainless steel over the years and even good quality stainless seems to gall up with neversieze for no reason and it usually taken it back out even if it's been together for a short time.
So i watch a show on building fishing lodges in Alaska with like 100ft pontoons hand made in shop in Alaska. there was multiple fishing lodges there on pontoons and the builders of the pontoons and lodges said to use pipe dope with teflon in for the stainless bolts because neversieze didn't work and this worked better. they said they would gall up brand new bolts putting them in with neversieze. something to check out. just started trying it out my docks this year
So i watch a show on building fishing lodges in Alaska with like 100ft pontoons hand made in shop in Alaska. there was multiple fishing lodges there on pontoons and the builders of the pontoons and lodges said to use pipe dope with teflon in for the stainless bolts because neversieze didn't work and this worked better. they said they would gall up brand new bolts putting them in with neversieze. something to check out. just started trying it out my docks this year
We could have a whole thread on stainless tapped holes.. One thing I found screws things up is mixing different classes of fit. If a hole is tapped for a 3B fit (tight tolerance) and you run in a 2A (not as tight tolerance) screw it is easy to get enough interference to cause it to seize no matter how much of what. Add to that the "H" limits and you can get torqued off just thinking about it.
Sledhead Ed,
Thank you for the suggestion. I don't think it would ever have occurred to me to use pipe dope with Teflon. I will definitely get some and try it.
At this point we're going back with the OEM fasteners that came on the engine. We know they work.