Should Gays be Allowed to Serve Openly in the Military?

[rback33]

OK. So.. I had a LONG talk with my Airforce buddy... He does not really care either way. He has served with NUMEROUS people that he KNOWS are gay. One of which he said he would go to battle with and day of any week of any year. He can take a gnat off a hat at a thousand yards. Ok...that might have been an exaggeration, I could be more specific with the details, but the would put his career at risk. He does not care either way because they already have community showers in MANY places where men and women shower together already. Men and women can lust for each other just same a gay man can lust for another. He was emphatic that sexuality is NOT an issue in combat. Your too busy not getting killed. He also does not think it will matter after the next election.

 

[mak2]

huummmmm, he is in the Air Force. They stay in hotels, not tents. just a thought.

 

[American Woman]

Sounds like a guy secure in himself as a man.

 

[mak2]

Sounds like a guy secure in himself as a man.

Hey, who you talking too?

 

[rback33]

huummmmm, he is in the Air Force. They stay in hotels, not tents. just a thought.

LMAO He did admit to individual quarters and the the Navy was his biggest concern.

 

[American Woman]

Hey, who you talking too?

Not you, that's for sure

 

[Volfandt]

huummmmm, he is in the Air Force. They stay in hotels, not tents. just a thought.

Their chow halls are more like restaurants and they wouldn't know how to stand in a formation even if it walked up and smacked 'em upside the nogg'n

All kidding aside, I've several family and friends that has served in the AF and I feel very confident in saying that they wouldn't want to shower with openly practicing homosexuals.....

 

[ddrane2115]

Well under that train of thought, there shouldn't be two separate barracks for men and woman, there instead should be one common bathroom, barracks and shower for all. Which of course isn't right, but that is what having openly "Gays" eliminates, it is in those common areas with those that don't like that "Preferred" lifestyle.

difference is sexes is not something we have a choice on unless you want to say women or men should not be allowed to serve. Personally I dont care either way, long as their duties are completed according to the plans, let them be whatever.

As for the seperate men and women, I would think one or two gays or lesbians would be a lot less of a disturbance, then putting men and women in the same bunk, shower, and quarters............., but yes in theory you should be able to do that and expect the rules followed.............

 

[American Woman]

Their chow halls are more like restaurants and they wouldn't know how to stand in a formation even if it walked up and smacked 'em upside the nogg'n

All kidding aside, I've several family and friends that has served in the AF and I feel very confident in saying that they wouldn't want to shower with openly practicing homosexuals.....

Wow...if my sons go in I will push them to go in the AF

 

[Volfandt]

Wow...if my sons go in I will push them to go in the AF

In the rear with the gear IS where it's at. Had my daughter desired to serve in the military, I too would have HIGHLY recommended the AF. But knowing her she would have probably gone in the Marines
On a related note, I knew a few female Marines who were not happy with the shims they served with.

 

[fogtender]

I see the poll is drawing closer now. I am still a yes they should server guy. I believe they are already there and people know they are there and they server fine together. I will pose the question to my airforce buddy. He and I have been playing phone tag anyway. I'll see what he thinks.

People are getting two issues crossed, if a gay wants to serve, then then can keep their mouth shut and their "Preference" to themselves and serve as long as they want. If they are open about being "Gay" then they can't. It is their choice alone, and has nothing to do with skin color, born sex or being handicapped with a physical issue.

Someone in a wheelchair can't server period, that doesn't mean they don't want to or have the heart, they just don't have those abilities that are required in a battlefield to be able to get around without assistance. That doesn't mean people hate them either.

In a war, there is no such thing as "Behind the Lines", over and over in history, those areas have been attacked and overrun in warfare. The reason is you destroy the supply side of the enemy, the front lines tend to weaken or crumble. Even in Iraq, the "Green Zone" is the supply area, it is subject to rocket attacks for that very same reason and a source of some deaths of civilians and the like.

 

[fogtender]

I wouldn't have a problem with gays on the battlefield as long as they did their job. But answer me this. Does the military have showers where many guys shower together? If so i would have a real problem with it. It would be like me working with ladies and we all do our job and get along fine , but if we showered together then it would really be a problem.

In the military, there is very little "Private" area, on some bases there is somewhat more of a private area, but in the real world of war, you "shower, shave and shit" in the same place, elbow to elbow in most cases.

If one wanted to stay married, I doubt your spouse would want you showering with the opposite sex on the other side of the world regardless of how you framed it....

During the last hours of Desert Storm, Saddam launched a scud missile and it hit a dining hall if I recall correctly and killed about 80+- people that were in the "Back Lines" area considered a "Safe area", it clearly wasn't.

 

[ghautz]

Maybe times have changed. When I served in the Navy, it seemed that the general population of enlisted men included a disproportionate number of homophobes, whose idea of a good time was to "bash queers." I would expect that attitude to be greater in groups with less education (stereotypical enlisted men) than, for instance, members of this forum. When the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was started, I figured the motivation was to minimize discipline problems in the ranks. It is probably easier to ban openly gay enlistees than to overcome the prejudices of many others.

 

[fogtender]

Maybe times have changed. When I served in the Navy, it seemed that the general population of enlisted men included a disproportionate number of homophobes, whose idea of a good time was to "bash queers." I would expect that attitude to be greater in groups with less education (stereotypical enlisted men) than, for instance, members of this forum. When the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was started, I figured the motivation was to minimize discipline problems in the ranks. It is probably easier to ban openly gay enlistees than to overcome the prejudices of many others.

I have an open prejudice in that I don't like women in the military combat units/ships, it isn't that I don't like them. I just know that when men and women mix, there is a degree of sex that doesn't need to be in a place where it is your job if called upon to kill. In a Corporate Boardroom or on an Assembly line, there should be no differences in the civilian world. The military isn't a civilian world, it can be a world that would tear your soul out with all the carnage that can be created by ones action. Adding a third component of "Open Gay", isn't something that the military shouldn't have to deal with. I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal choice that one makes in their sex lives, you keep your mouth shut with your private life private and nobody would know.

 

[American Woman]

People are getting two issues crossed, if a gay wants to serve, then can keep their mouth shut and their "Preference" to themselves and serve as long as they want. If they are open about being "Gay" then they can't. It is their choice alone, and has nothing to do with skin color, born sex or being handicapped with a physical issue.

The two issues I see getting crossed because of the "don't ask don't tell" could mean being Gay won't get you kicked out of the service, or being able to behave gay causing problems in a unit. (I see where that could happen). I think it means a gay man is safe from being kicked out of the military.

Someone in a wheelchair can't server period, that doesn't mean they don't want to or have the heart, they just don't have those abilities that are required in a battlefield to be able to get around without assistance. That doesn't mean people hate them either.

This is a lot different than a healthy gay man...

In the military, there is very little "Private" area, on some bases there is somewhat more of a private area, but in the real world of war, you "shower, shave and shit" in the same place, elbow to elbow in most cases.
If one wanted to stay married, I doubt your spouse would want you showering with the opposite sex on the other side of the world regardless of how you framed it....
I have an open prejudice in that I don't like women in the military combat units/ships, it isn't that I don't like them. I just know that when men and women mix, there is a degree of sex that doesn't need to be in a place where it is your job if called upon to kill. In a Corporate Boardroom or on an Assembly line, there should be no differences in the civilian world. The military isn't a civilian world, it can be a world that would tear your soul out with all the carnage that can be created by ones action. Adding a third component of "Open Gay", isn't something that the military shouldn't have to deal with. I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal choice that one makes in their sex lives, you keep your mouth shut with your private life private and nobody would know.

I agree with this....Anyway you look at it isn't going to be good.

 

[rback33]

I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal choice that one makes in their sex lives, you keep your mouth shut with your private life private and nobody would know.

I can tell you foggy.... that statement really bothers me. I long ago accepted the fact that you are from a different era, in a different part of the world than I. I KNOW we will never agree on this issue. If for no other reason, you have NEVER known for a day the gay people I have known my whole life. To say so vehemently say that you don't care what anyone says greatly tarnishes the respect I have for you. I sincerely hope I am misinterpreting your representation of your opinion.

 

[mak2]

Not you, that's for sure

I am not sure so I am just gonna ask. did you just insult me or not?

 

[Volfandt]

Maybe times have changed. When I served in the Navy, it seemed that the general population of enlisted men included a disproportionate number of homophobes, whose idea of a good time was to "bash queers." I would expect that attitude to be greater in groups with less education (stereotypical enlisted men) than, for instance, members of this forum. When the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was started, I figured the motivation was to minimize discipline problems in the ranks. It is probably easier to ban openly gay enlistees than to overcome the prejudices of many others

I've seen more childish homophobic behavior in college students than I have with enlisted service members.

Don't ask don't tell was implemented because Bill Clinton HAD to pay back the homosexual special interest groups that voted for him. He promised them he'd bring it to the table and did. They were not happy with it but it was better than what they had.

I've known openly practicing homosexuals and I've never felt the need nor desire to attack them nor have anyone I've been associated with.
To be honest, I feel quite sorry for them as I just can't seem to grasp the desire to want to bed another of my own sex. I don't think they would ever be happy nor satisfied w/ getting everything they want in regards to legal acceptance in modern society as they know that their behavior is inherently not normal behavior.
I personally know of a woman that has swung both ways. She was once married and has two children and she left her husband to live with another woman, which broke up yet another marrige. She is now back involved in a heterosexual relationship. An argument can be made that in some cases homosexual behavior isn't a hereditary condition but an aquired abnormal behavior such as smoking, alcoholism and or drug abuse......

History is strewn with the remnants of so called great societies that imploded within ....

 

[Doc]

Excellent post Volfandt!!!!! Very good points. I also witnessed more gay bashing in college than in the service.

 

[thcri]

An argument can be made that in some cases homosexual behavior isn't a hereditary condition but an aquired abnormal behavior such as smoking, alcoholism and or drug abuse......

 

[rback33]

An argument can be made that in some cases homosexual behavior isn't a hereditary condition but an aquired abnormal behavior such as smoking, alcoholism and or drug abuse......

History is strewn with the remnants of so called great societies that imploded within ....

I highlighted the key word there. He said some, not most. This is a fair statement.

Hey Murph.... You just agreed that SOME homosexuals are ARE born that way.
Never thought I would hear that.

 

[thcri]

I highlighted the key word there. He said some, not most. This is a fair statement.

Hey Murph.... You just agreed that SOME homosexuals are ARE born that way.
Never thought I would hear that.

Yeah the only ones that are hereditary are the ones who's parents were gay. Ok Ok maybe you caught me.

 

[Cityboy]

Hey Murph.... You just agreed that SOME homosexuals are ARE born that way.
Never thought I would hear that.

That's what happens with civil discourse. Eventually bigoted people begin to see beyond their blinders. I've been working on my own blinders a lot lately, and that sure has pissed a lot of my constipated conservative friends off.

Now, back to the military issue. I wittnessed heterosexual military members destroy more homes, family's and lives than any homosexual's have in in private life and military life combined. When the infantry and artillary units went to the field, the wives went to town. I know this for a fact because I was out there in town servicing as many of those wives as I could. I admit it...hell, I was single, young, dumb and full of........

When I was in Yokosuka, Japan, the USS Midway and its battle group was based there. There are 5000 sailors on the Midway alone. A poll of the "Midway Wives" was done while I was there. In that poll, 90% of the Midway wives admitted they were sexually active while their husbands were at sea. The Marines used to do battalion sized 3-mile+ runs around the base. During these runs, they would circle the Midway barracks when they were in port and sing "Midway! Midway! Sail Away!..Let the wives come out & play!" And you know what? The wives DID come out to play with the Marines and Sailors that stayed behind. Yep, lots of divorces were decreed and dear John letters sent with every deployment....broken hearts, broken homes...all by us "normal" heterosexuals.....

The women in the military have over 100 studly young men to choose from for every one woman. Do you not think this causes problems between the men? The fact is, the gays know how to find other gays through some kind of "gaydar". They are not after those 96 other guys slobbering over the one female member, so you boys so worried about some faggot ckecking out your little winkie in the shower need not bother....that is unless you are putting out the "Gaydar...

 

[thcri]

That's what happens with civil discourse. Eventually bigoted people begin to see beyond their blinders. I've been working on my own blinders a lot lately, and that sure has pissed a lot of my constipated conservative friends off.

so you calling me a bigot? Just because I don't think being gay is natural does not make one a bigot. No different than if one thinks that Blacks are pushing for more rights than whites doesn't make them a racist.

I say no, but then I don't give a rat's ass. BD is right it ain't normal.

From the first post I made in this thread. I don't give a rat's ass about them. They can be what they want.

 

[Cityboy]

so you calling me a bigot?

Nope. Just busting your balls and making you think.

 

[fogtender]

Now, back to the military issue. I wittnessed heterosexual military members destroy more homes, family's and lives than any homosexual's have in in private life and military life combined. When the infantry and artillary units went to the field, the wives went to town. I know this for a fact because I was out there in town servicing as many of those wives as I could.

Well there is a big difference between what happens off the base and what happens in a military environment or in a foreign Port. The fact the Wife/Husband/boyfriend/girlfriend doesn't stay at home isn't the same as battlefield romances either between same or opposite sexes, which by the way is illegal in the military as it is.

That is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

 

[fogtender]

I can tell you foggy.... that statement really bothers me. I long ago accepted the fact that you are from a different era, in a different part of the world than I. I KNOW we will never agree on this issue. If for no other reason, you have NEVER known for a day the gay people I have known my whole life. To say so vehemently say that you don't care what anyone says greatly tarnishes the respect I have for you. I sincerely hope I am misinterpreting your representation of your opinion.

My statement is a fact in law, not by my making.

Originally Posted by fogtender
I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal choice that one makes in their sex lives, you keep your mouth shut with your private life private and nobody would know.

If a person in the Military makes an open admission of being gay, they are out of the service. If they keep their mouth shut, then they stay where they are. They could have a fleet of gay friends back at home and nobody cares (or would know), it is what they do in their professional military life that matters on what happens to their career and is totally up to them.

The policy of "Don't ask, Don't tell" is what Clinton signed into Military Law by Presidential Decree.

Before that, if the Military found out by someone snitching on you, then that alone could get you outed. I believe that Clinton did the right thing by his actions... (hear that BigAl, he was a Democrat too!)

I still don't agree with someone being openly gay in the military, I don't have any objections if I don't know what their belief is, same as a guy's religion, it is totally his choice as long as it doesn't bother me.

 

[Doc]

That's what happens with civil discourse. Eventually bigoted people begin to see beyond their blinders.

The old CB is back. Your above statement is a low blow. It's people like you and AW who have to call folks who don't see things the same as you bigots or homophobes that take away from the civil discourse.

 

[Cityboy]

The old CB is back. Your above statement is a low blow. It's people like you and AW who have to call folks who don't see things the same as you bigots or homophobes that take away from the civil discourse.

Bullshit, Doc. You disagree with me and you tend to make statements like this. If you were on my side of this argument, you would be sending me rep points. I see the same old people with their same old arguments over and over again get pissy when someone disagrees with their bigoted, yes, bigoted views that revolve around religion.

Step back for once and question your own beliefs. Try being the Devil's advocate once in a while...it's enlightening.

 

[Doc]

I have stepped back and questioned my thoughts on the subject. You asked for peoples opinions and you got them. Then if they don't agree with you you turn to name calling.

I can disagree with you without calling you a name or labeling you gay or some BS like you did above.

The key to this whole argument is "Openly gay". No one appears to agree on how far and what openly really means. And we all know some gay folks would push it further than others. It happens in society all the time. I work with gay folks. Most of them you'd never know their sexual orientation but some have to make sure you are aware of their gayness. This does not mean they are hitting on you or anything, but they make sure everyone realizes they are different. I believe "openly gay" would have negative connotations for our military. I know I am not a bigot nor a homophobe and I do not appreciate name calling when we are trying to have a civil debate. Debate the issues, name calling only takes away from your argument.