Shitites Chant "Death to Israel, Death to America

[dzalphakilo]

It would be ridiculous to give "Israel" back to anyone at this point.

The "state" of Israel has a very interesting begining, which the U.S did help.

Vins post is very interesting reading, likewise, I could post at least three other "versions". I guess it's what you want to believe, which asks some other questions as well.

Point being about the bumper sticker is that there are people who will never forget 9/11, and will always need to blame it on someone, and thus can justify any action taken.

Likewise, the I'm sure the Arabs and Jews will NEVER forget thier past with one another.

Yes, being sarcastic to a point.

Dutch, I'm surprised you don't have more excuses why we lost. God, I thought most people have given up trying to rationalize why and how we good ol Americans lost some "wars" after WW2.

 

[Melensdad]

Dutch, I think you may have mis-understood my post. While I do wonder openly if Israel is taking too long and causing too much collateral damage, I think that they would have been far better served if they had made a much stronger and far more forceful push earlier on to make for a more decisive statement immediately rather than a lingering slow push over the period of nearly 4 weeks. During a rapid assault, collateral damage is tolerated, but over a prolonged period collateral damage seems to turn public opinion against the people defending their territory.

 

[daedong]

Vins post is very interesting reading, likewise, I could post at least three other "versions". I guess it's what you want to believe, which asks some other questions as well.

Please do.

 

[Cityboy]

While I do wonder openly if Israel is taking too long and causing too much collateral damage, I think that they would have been far better served if they had made a much stronger and far more forceful push earlier on to make for a more decisive statement immediately rather than a lingering slow push over the period of nearly 4 weeks. During a rapid assault, collateral damage is tolerated, but over a prolonged period collateral damage seems to turn public opinion against the people defending their territory.

Just some observations here, not aimed solely at Bobs post:

It is very easy for us to sit in the comfort of our homes, watching the conflict on TV and casting our own limited judgement. Wars that are televised tend to get skewed from reality and news agencies play upon peoples emotions, and opinions are formed based on a six-minute news cast. War cannot be fought based on public popularity; it must be fought and won on the battlefield. If Israel stops at any point short of total victory, the Muslims will only regroup and rearm and attack again.

Why is it Israel, a tiny country who wants only to be left alone in its "promised land" villinized by most of the world media? Israel is not attempting to expand its borders, but the Muslim countries are. Why is the world media, and some here actually rooting against the underdog? Why is it so hard to see that the Muslim nations are the agressors who have vowed to never stop until the Jews in Israel are genocided? How can any rational, thinking person side with the Muslims against Israel? Why are these murdering Muslims being excused and coddled? Somebody please apply some reason and logic here.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Please do.

The fact is no matter what I post, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and then make general comments about just pasting "propaganda". My point about vin's post is at least make it seem as the information is coming from a "neutral" source. Mosada? come on.

What I find interesting is that Bonehead made the comment about what I would propose, such as giving Israel back. Why I find that interesting is that I never made such a comment, and actually that thought had never crossed my mind, but it did his.

I happen to agree with Bob, Israel did screw the pooch on the way they are handling thier situation (my opinon). You guys may find this hard to believe, but I actually think Israel has/had a right to retaliate (sp?).

What I find interesting by Boneheads question to me about the attack is it's apparent he believes that I think Israel dosen't have a right to retaliate. Where did I say Israel did not have the right to retaliate. My opinion is that there becomes a "pack mentality" here, "you don't agree with one thing we say, you don't agree with anything we say" to some extent.

I honestly believe that it is easier to make a war than it is to work for peace.

The middle east is also to complicated for myself to totally understand at times.

Per citiyboys post, I also happen to agree with some of his observations here and in some of his previous posts that Americans can do some "armchair quarterbacking" and can be lazy. By that same token, I happen to the U.S is one of the greatest countries in the world, and would serve my country to protect her, which I did (mos was in combat arms, not some REMF job).

Off topic, but I love the Americans who fly thier torn flags caught on tree limbs, at night with no lights who are too lazy to take them down or know no better. I consider myself American enough to get caught by Mr. Police officer (who by the way also served and did not write me a ticket) for climbing a tree to cut a flag down that had been torn and caught in that tree for over three months in a residential neighborhood (sp?), with the owner never making an attempt to replace her (the flag). Yes, most americans are lazy.

The only comment I made about Israel is how the country was formed.

What I find also interesting is that in this same post, Korea and Vietnam was mentioned. This is getting off the topic to some extent, but also raises some other serious questions as well. Americans are not use to losing in war, I think that is a given.

I was taught a long time ago that at times in your life you will be picked on if you don't stick up for yourself, and you can only turn your other cheek for so long. If you are going to fight (assuming its not a gunfight), no such things as rules, and if there is more than one (of your opponent), go for the biggest guy first, make it fast, then go after another. Worse case scenerio is that after that, you will be left alone. That being said, you have to be careful that you don't get the chip on your shoulder.

 

[Big Dog]

How can any rational, thinking person side with the Muslims against Israel? Why are these murdering Muslims being excused and coddled? Somebody please apply some reason and logic here.

IMO...cause they got lots a OIL!

 

[HGM]

How can any rational, thinking person side with the Muslims against Israel? Why are these murdering Muslims being excused and coddled? Somebody please apply some reason and logic here.

My personal feelings on this.... Because of the media and the way the WHOLE middle east is portrayed as being sub poverty and living in slums, some people feel they are being picked on and deserve consideration...

 

[daedong]

The fact is no matter what I post, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and then make general comments about just pasting "propaganda". My point about vin's post is at least make it seem as the information is coming from a "neutral" source. Mosada? come on.

[FONT=&quot]I will read other views on this subject and draw an opinion from a conglomerate of that information. So if you can post other views, I ask again, please post it. [/FONT]

 

[BoneheadNW]

My opinion is that there becomes a "pack mentality" here, "you don't agree with one thing we say, you don't agree with anything we say" to some extent.

I agree with you there, but it is not limited to here on FF. I get this from my wife from time to time.

I honestly believe that it is easier to make a war than it is to work for peace.

Once again, if someone is lobbing rockets into your country and kidnapping your soldiers, that is the choice you have. You said it yourself:

at times in your life you will be picked on if you don't stick up for yourself, and you can only turn your other cheek for so long. If you are going to fight (assuming its not a gunfight), no such things as rules, and if there is more than one (of your opponent), go for the biggest guy first, make it fast, then go after another. Worse case scenerio is that after that, you will be left alone.

So, once again, and I'm not trying to slant anything you say, if you were the PM of Israel and you were being bombed by rockets and had two soldiers kidnapped, would you: 1) Exchange 165 of their prisoners for your two men and hope the rockets would stop or 2) Go in to Lebanon and retaliate militarily? If there are other options, please state them. All I am asking is what would you have done differently?
Bonehead

 

[jpr62902]

Source aside, Vin's post on the genesis of modern Israel is largely accurate. Kinda makes it hard to understand the intense hatred SOME Arabs have for Jews. Is it possible to have civil discourse on this topic?

 

[BoneheadNW]

Is it possible to have civil discourse on this topic?

I think this discourse has been pretty civil. You should see dinner time when the entire family gets together at my parents house!
Bonehead

 

[jpr62902]

You're right. This thread has been largely civil. I just think some premature, if not incorrect, inferences have been made.

 

[dzalphakilo]

I agree with you there, but it is not limited to here on FF. I get this from my wife from time to time.

Once again, if someone is lobbing rockets into your country and kidnapping your soldiers, that is the choice you have. You said it yourself:

So, once again, and I'm not trying to slant anything you say, if you were the PM of Israel and you were being bombed by rockets and had two soldiers kidnapped, would you: 1) Exchange 165 of their prisoners for your two men and hope the rockets would stop or 2) Go in to Lebanon and retaliate militarily? If there are other options, please state them. All I am asking is what would you have done differently?
Bonehead

Did you read my post? I mentioned that I think Israel screwed the pooch, per Bob, they did not do enough. I expected Israel to "clean" Lebanon out, which they have not done. What more do you want to hear.

 

[dzalphakilo]

[FONT=&quot]I will read other views on this subject and draw an opinion from a conglomerate of that information. So if you can post other views, I ask again, please post it. [/FONT]

I will, give me time. Fact is I have yard work, real work, and more important things than to post something for your reading to bolster my point of view. Like yourself, I can post anything found on the internet. Information given has numerous variables to it (and we all know what we read on the internet is the TRUTH!). What I'm thinking of in particular is located in Washington D.C, will need to make phone calls to see if it is available online, if not (particularly what I'm thinking of) will need to scan some documents. I'm sure to an extent most here don't care what I have to say, and anything produced will go one in ear and out another. I'm also sure that I'm not going to porduce anything that will make front page headlines.

If you can't wait, would you like me to visit an anti Jewish website to produce facts that rebuffs what you you posted?

Thats my whole point.

 

[Cityboy]

Lets apply some common sense and logic.

1. Israel has never been the agressor. History bears this out. Israel has never attempted to expand their borders and has always been willing to compromise and to try to live with the Muslims.

2. The Muslims are in a constant state of expansion and have made it clear that the only acceptable solution is the killing of every Jew in Israel, thus completely eliminating Israel.

3. The Muslims have made it clear that they intend to rule the world under Islamic law.

Now, given these three indisputable facts, what justification do the Muslim nations have for carring on global genocide?

 

[Melensdad]

3. The Muslims have made it clear that they intend to rule the world under Islamic law.

Now, given these three indisputable facts, what justification do the Muslim nations have for carring on global genocide?

One point of clarification. Some Muslims are secular and do not belive in your point #3. There are Muslim nations that do not follow Shira law, etc.

However, there certianly are SOME Muslims who clearly fit your point #3. Iran and Syria fit the criteria.

As for their justification . . . that is very simple. They feel the religious need to clense the world of the infadels (you and me).

 

[BoneheadNW]

They feel the religious need to clense the world of the infadels (you and me).

And me too. Once again, I find myself grouped with the two of you! What is this world coming to? Too bad there isn't a smilie that is stabbing himself in the neck- I would be using it here.

Seriously, I read this morning that Syria is massing its troops in anticipation of fighting alongside its brothers in Hezbollah. I am afraid if that happens, Israel will go all out, which might include nukes.
Bonehead

 

[Melensdad]

Seriously, I read this morning that Syria is massing its troops in anticipation of fighting alongside its brothers in Hezbollah. I am afraid if that happens, Israel will go all out, which might include nukes.
Bonehead

And that goes back to my first post in this thread where I suggested that Israel is losing the war of public opinion by dragging this on. Obviously it is easy to be an armchair general, but it strikes me that Israel would be in a much better position if their defensive push would have been MUCH more aggressive in the early days and wrapped up their misson much quicker. Now we have a situation where Syria (a known terrorist nation) is readying troops. Nothing good can come of this if it continues.

 

[Cityboy]

One point of clarification. Some Muslims are secular and do not belive in your point #3. There are Muslim nations that do not follow Shira law, etc.

However, there certianly are SOME Muslims who clearly fit your point #3. Iran and Syria fit the criteria.

As for their justification . . . that is very simple. They feel the religious need to clense the world of the infadels (you and me).

Just for the sake of picking a technical bone here, how can a Muslim nation not follow Islamic (Shaira) law?

If someone in a Muslim nation is secular, can that person still be a Muslim?

Hell, I wish they were all secular heathens....we wouldn't be dealing with all this religous crap.

 

[Melensdad]

Here is what I see:

• Hezbollah is not well liked by many Arab nations, but is supported by Iran/Syria
• Hezbollah's militia is an illegal army inside Lebanon and Lebanon has ZERO control over Hezbollah but Hezbollah has a moderate level of control over Lebanon
• Hezbollah's actions may have been propmted by Iran to take the heat off of Iran's nuclear enrichment program (which today reaffirmed it will NOT comply with the United Nations requirements)
• Hezbollah must be disarmed as a militia
• Other than Israel, who can disarm Hezbollah (and Israel can only do that by virutally crushing them)?
• The Jordanian government was a "good neighbor" to Israel, friendly to the Western nations, but had/has virtually zero military power and is unable to disarm Hezbollah.
• As Hezbollah members are also members of the Jordanian government, and popular with many citizens, it would be a conflict of interest for Jordan to even attempt to disarm Hezbollah.
• The UNITED NATIONS has no military force that can act as a real military force which will keep the Hezbollah militia out of the buffer zone area that Israel demands along its north border.
• The N.A.T.O. nations have been suggested to send in a real military force in southern Lebanon to act as the buffer force. NATO has the ability, but does it have the desire?
• Lebanon requires Israel to withdraw from its territory, but has no way to expel them.
• Hezbollah requires Israel to withdraw from Lebanon as a condition of a cease fire.
• Israel would glady withdraw from Lebanon IF the Hezbollah was disarmed, which Hezbollah refuses to do, and which Lebanon cannot mandate through force.
• Any solution that does not leave Hezbollah weaponless is not a real solution.
• Lebanon can peacefully co-exist with Israel.
• Israel can peacefully co-exist with Lebanon.
• Hezbollah vows to destroy all Jews/Israel and operates with automomy from within Lebanon.

What did I miss?

 

[BoneheadNW]

What did I miss?

I think you covered it all. After reading that excellent summary, I see no reason to be optimistic for a peaceful settlement. In fact, it looks like the only way this "conflict" can go is upwards (with respect to intensity of fighting). That is depressing.

By the way, when does a "conflict" become a war?
Bone

 

[Cityboy]

I see no reason to be optimistic for a peaceful settlement. In fact, it looks like the only way this "conflict" can go is upwards (with respect to intensity of fighting). That is depressing.

By the way, when does a "conflict" become a war?
Bone

Will you knock that off bonehead! You keep posting stuff I agree with.

I have a bad feeling about this one guys. It's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're going to see some things we've never wittnessed in our lifetimes, and the U.S. will be forced into it at some point, I fear.

When does a conflict become a war? Don't know where that line gets crossed, but for all intents and purposes, it is already a war. Hezbollah considers it a holy war and Iran is pushing the buttons with its little Pit Chiuaua Syria on the leash yapping and growling.

 

[Av8r3400]

One point of clarification. Some Muslims are secular and do not belive in your point #3. There are Muslim nations that do not follow Shira law, etc.

However, there certianly are SOME Muslims who clearly fit your point #3. Iran and Syria fit the criteria.

As for their justification . . . that is very simple. They feel the religious need to clense the world of the infadels (you and me).

Note, please: The islamofacist elements in the muslim "faith" also consider secular muslims to be infidels worthy of dieing just as much as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and every other faith that is not shaira.

In addition to your comment, where are the condemnations by these secular islamists to the islamofascists? (This is a rhetorical question, because the answer is simple: There is no condemnation, outcry or even quiet murmers of dissent because they are NOT in disagreement. That is the only logical conclusion.)

 

[HGM]

By the way, when does a "conflict" become a war?
Bone

Make no mistake, this is a war... This war has been going on for centuries, we are just seeing parts of it for the first time.. They are a totally different form of humanity than most of us can even understand...

 

[BoneheadNW]

Will you knock that off bonehead! You keep posting stuff I agree with.

Hopefully that will wear off when I take a shower (my weekly shower is Sunday night).
Bonehead

 

[daedong]

Here is some good reading on this subject, several good links from the page. http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Israel,_Pro-Palestinian_Historical_Prospective

 

[daedong]

I received this today from a friend of mine that moved to Bahrain about 3 years ago. Each month he sends a bulk email to all his mates. I have never in all the time I have known him to talk about politics. Below is the first section (opening) of his email. This guy is level headed as you can get, enjoys work, likes to play and is very open-minded and loves people.

This has me scratching my head a bit.


[FONT=&quot]"No need to worry. [/FONT]
This month has seen tension throughout the region increase with the actions of Israel in Lebanon. We now receive security updates daily advising the areas where protests will take place and to obviously avoid. Even though Americans are held in contempt, there is no immediate threat to expatriates in the countries I visit. I can well assure everyone there is no need for worry, as all precautions to maintain our safety are taken.

[FONT=&quot]A Region in Crisis[/FONT]
My time in this region has given me an appreciation for the people of the Middle East and the difficulties they face, in particular from countries trying to change their culture which has survived hundreds of years. This region has been in crisis for thousands of years, and when you look back at the history of the region it is no wonder with other “powers’ having a major input into past events. The super powers of the world have a lot to answer for when it comes to what state the world is in today. Both Iraq and Israel were countries created years ago through the influence of both England and America.
The current situation in Lebanon is a very sad state of affairs with many innocent women and children being killed each day. I am sure Australians are not seeing all the graphic images we see here; images that make me feel sick in the stomach. This crisis is not a matter of two Israel soldiers being captured; it is more about the atrocities Israel has enacted over many years. The American press promote that Hizbollah started this current conflict, however there is never any mention how the Israeli’s first entered Lebanon and captured suspected members of Hizbollahs group.
Almost 60 years ago the West helped create Israel over the corpses of Palestinians. I have personally seen some of the result from that and subsequent actions which have occurred ever since. What I have seen makes one appreciate just how lucky we are back home in Australia.
The children and grandchildren of these victims are now fighting back for their inalienable rights, what ever the price.
What really disappoints me about America is they pushed hard for Syria to leave Lebanon so the Lebanese could hold democratic elections and live in peace. In a democratic world we are supposed to respect the wishes of the people; not America! They did not get the result they needed so they turned against the people of Lebanon, and now that Israel has invaded Lebanon all America can do is sit back and provide more bombs to Israel.
The USA supports Israel with millions, that is fine, but if Syria or Iran support Lebanon, it is illegal; strange don’t you think!
I can really understand why there is so much hatred towards America and in particular Bush; someone I personally have no respect for.
If Syria and Iran become involved and support Lebanon, you can be assured America will step in to support Israel, and all I can say is God help us all if that happens"

 

[ALLEN PARSONS]

YES IT IS EASIER TO MAKE WAR THEN IT IS TO WORK FOR PEACE.
IT IS ABOUT TIME THE POLITICIANS GOT OFF THERE FAT ASS AND WORKED FOR PEACE, INSTEAD OF JUST THROWING THERE SMART BOMBS INTO MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTIES AND HOPING THE PROBLEM WILL GO AWAY,
EVERY ONE WANTS TO POINT THERE FINGERS, THEN THERE GUNS AND BLOW THE HELL OUT OF ANOTHER COUNTY, WHY. MAN LOVES WAR,
WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, WHAT COUNTRY WILL BE NEXT ON THE HIT LIST. (COME ON FOLKS) DONT YOU THINK IT TIME TO STOP.

 

[Cityboy]

Vin - I think your friend has been influenced by the media, as many have in Europe, as well as here in America these days. No doubt, this conflict is disconcerting to all spectators and everyone is looking for someone to blame, and it is easy to blame America for supporting Israel, and blaming Israel for entering Lebanon. I think many people just wish Israel would simply pack up and leave, because in doing so, these people believe all the middleast turmoil would then end.

But would that really be the answer? Would the Islamic crusaders then be content to remain within their own borders and live in peace? Given that with nearly no exceptions, all the shooting wars going on around the world today involve Muslims, that does not appear to be a realistic expectation.

There are those that say America's involvement is primarily oil driven. I think this is the closest argument to the truth. Our economy, and the worlds economy for that matter, is oil driven. Take all the oil away today, and tomorrow, the world stands still.

When you have religous fanatics in control of a large portion of the worlds oil supply in an oil dependant world, it is a recipe for turmoil and conflict. If you take Islamic fanaticism out of the picture, there would be little remaining conflict. If you only remove the Jews from the situation, you still have the Islamic issue. Therein the problem truly lies.

What is the answer? Some genius scientists invent or discover a lubricant that makes crude oil obsolete, or the elimination of Islam. Eitherway, Islam will be taken out of the picture and the conflict largely resolved.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Both Iraq and Israel were countries created years ago through the influence of both England and America.
"

Interesting, in your post linked from Mosada on the "creation" of Israel, I could of missed it, but there was no mention of America (AKA the U.S) helping in the creation of Israel.