crazy catholic priests at it again

[Dargo]

Now why would you say something silly like this in the midst of this debate? I'm being completely honest here, and have been from day one.

Do I believe in something I have never seen before? Sure - electricity, for one. The internet. Heat. Heat absorption and heat transfer.

Belief is not in question here, but I'm not sure what you are attempting to prove with your question. I can prove the existence of electricty and heat transfer. What is your point?

Point proven. If you don't see it, that's part of the issue you seem to have. Thank you.

 

[Cityboy]

Think about this ..... if the church is wrong and you don't believe, you do not gain or loose anything. And, conversely, if you believe and the church is wrong, you still do not gain or loose anything.

But, if the church is correct and you do believe, you stand to gain everything for all eternity and if the church is correct and you do not believe, you stand to loose everything for all eternity.

This, to me, is your own admission that you truly do not know, and that you are hoping that you will not burn in hell for eternity.

 

[Cityboy]

Point proven. If you don't see it, that's part of the issue you seem to have. Thank you.

Now that's just butt-assed ignorant Dargo. I thought you were going to participate in this discussion, yet you went and did the exact thing you suggested I was going to do.

So, you are saying that you are so far above me intellectually that I have no possibility of understanding what you just said, right?

OK, so run along now.

 

[Cityboy]

CB, it all comes back to Faith. You posted the definition. No one has argued that. So you know that having faith means you believe in something you can't prove or know for sure. That is what faith is all about.

I attended 12 years of Catholic school. At no time was it said that you have to be Catholic to go to heaven. I firmly believe that leading a good life (ie: obeying the commandments) and having faith and you will go to heaven. Wrong your fellow man, lie, kill, cheat, steal and you will not go to heaven.

But, it is all based on faith, that is what makes it interesting. What if the ten commandments were printed in the sky and when anyone disobeyed one God would immediately strike them with a bolt of lightning. Sure would change things. But God has given us a choice. Believe or not (Failth). Live life as you see fit. Take your best shot. No guarantees ...we'll all see how it plays out after we die.

We are not disagreeing here for all intents and purposes. I fully understand the concept of faith. One does not have to be religious to have faith in whatever one chooses to have faith in. You, nor I knows if heaven or hell actually exists. Not one of us knows what will happen to us when we die. Where does the energy go that was within a human being when that human beings body no longer functions and begins to decompose?

I do believe there is some form of infinite intelligence out there, I just do not know what it is, how it works, or what happens to the energy that powers our bodies when we die. And neither do any of you participating in this discussion. Many of you are going to be quite surprised what happens when you die, just as those Muslims who fervently believe they will awaken in the afterlife to 72 virgins will be. Those Muslims believe just as passionately in their faith as you do. How do you know they are completely wrong, and you are completely right?

Sometimes, you just have to look at life as it actually is. Some things we know, such as day follows night, spring follows winter, and each and every one of us WILL eventually die. These are natural laws and have been occurring as far back as we are aware of. What we do not know is what happens after death. You can choose to believe anything you wish to believe about the afterlife, but the fact is, you just don't know.

 

[daedong]

I attended 12 years of Catholic school. At no time was it said that you have to be Catholic to go to heaven. I firmly believe that leading a good life (ie: obeying the commandments) and having faith and you will go to heaven. Wrong your fellow man, lie, kill, cheat, steal and you will not go to heaven.

This is what I was taught too,
So that means at least 85% of the population will go to hell not to mention all those that preceded Christ.

How do you Know you have the right God, You may just be making him madder and madder because you have the wrong one?

Do you think that had you been born in India you would be a Christian?

 

[dzalphakilo]

Many of you are going to be quite surprised what happens when you die, just as those Muslims who fervently believe they will awaken in the afterlife to 72 virgins will be. Those Muslims believe just as passionately in their faith as you do. How do you know they are completely wrong, and you are completely right?

Scary, we're agreeing more and more. I was going to post on the topic of faith and other religious beliefs, but you beat me to it.

I however cannot believe that you actually asked how if we as Christains know for a fact that those who follow the Islamic faith could be completely wrong. I don't disagree with with your question, just surprised that you asked it.

My point is that it was man who wrote the Bible, yes, perhaps with a divine guidance, but nevertheless, man.

Sometimes men have alterior (sp?) motives, just like those leading large religious sects.

Kind of puts seperation of church and state into perspective.

 

[Melensdad]

This is what I was taught,
So that means at least 85% of the population will go to hell not to mention all those that preceded Christ.

Vin, some religions teach that salvation is only attained through THEIR RELIGION. However, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, you do not have to be Catholic to get into heaven. I believe that both Sir Knight and I mentioned this point already. The same is true for those who lived prior to the Christian era. If you are intellectually curious about the faith, there is a good book that has a silly name that explains many facets of the religion: Catholicism for Dummies is the title. Like I said, silly name, but don't let that fool you, it does cover many issues and does so within the context of Catholic teaching. There is another book, the Idiots Guide to Catholicism, and I would NOT recommend it, it seems to be far less accurate.

With regard to Islam and the Jewish beliefs, realize all 3 are branches of the same basic understanding of God.

 

[Dargo]

So, you are saying that you are so far above me intellectually that I have no possibility of understanding what you just said, right?

OK, so run along now.

Okay, we were fine until now. It is clear for all to see what you can understand and what you cannot understand.

Just in case something is not clear for you to see, let me make something perfectly clear for you; you will never tell me when it is time for me to run along. Are we clear on that issue pal?

 

[dzalphakilo]

I don't have to prove what I know to be true. That is the beauty of faith. I also know my dog loves me, but it is not something I have to prove. Nor are either scientifically provable.

Bob, your dog is a animal with social traits. The trait that you are refering to is not love, but loyalty. Like most people, you associate the animal's behavior with human emotions which is wrong. Your dog is loyal to you, but it does not love you.

However, I do love my dogs like they were family.

Working with animals however, particularly those that need homes, I've found an interesting corrolation (sp?) at least for myself on an better understanding of how God works with humans (yeah, way out there, but an insight nevertheless, added to the fact that I don't do drugs anymore).

I'm also surprised that one of the first things that apparently you didn't learn in any of your college science classes is that science proves nothing.

 

[Melensdad]

Your dog is loyal to you, but it does not love you.

Fine, I'll accept the word substitution. The point is the same using either word.

I'm also surprised that one of the first things that apparently you didn't learn in any of your college science classes is that science proves nothing.

Actually I believed I illustrated THAT very point.

Science asks us to believe its theories. We are expected to have faith in science, but they simply don't call it faith. Seems pretty ironic that we can believe in scientific theories and atheists consider that to be normal behavior but if we believe in a God then those same people consider it irrational behavior.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Science asks us to believe its theories. We are expected to have faith in science, but they simply don't call it faith. Seems pretty ironic that we can believe in scientific theories and atheists consider that to be normal behavior but if we believe in a God then those same people consider it irrational behavior.

FACT is you cannot prove or disprove a God. Don't even try to "mix" science with religion, personally, I think that is part of the issue, particularly in the past.

I realize this is why it comes down to faith.

That damn woman had to eat from that tree of smarts.

If this is not the case (from my first sentence on this post), what is your scientiffic hypothesis on the God that you believe in?

Heck, everyone could just go back to the basics and run around nude.

Reminds me of a joke. What's the first thing Adam said to Eve?

Stand back, I don't know how big this thing gets!

 

[daedong]

Fine, I'll accept the word substitution. The point is the same using either word.

Actually I believed I illustrated THAT very point.

Science asks us to believe its theories. We are expected to have faith in science, but they simply don't call it faith. Seems pretty ironic that we can believe in scientific theories and atheists consider that to be normal behavior but if we believe in a God then those same people consider it irrational behavior.

Sorry Bob but science uses logic and accepts/or takes nothing for granted until proven.
A theory is nothing more than a theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

 

[Melensdad]

Sorry Bob but science uses logic and accepts/or takes nothing for granted until proven.
A theory is nothing more than a theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

People accept the theory of evolution as fact, but it is not proven.
People accept the theory of black holes as fact, but it is not proven.

 

[dzalphakilo]

Speaking of Catholics and gun control, since I don't follow whats going on in the Catholic church, what ever became of this story from two years ago?


Washington, Aug. 12, 2005 (CWNews.com) - An American expert on gun laws has sharply criticized the Vatican's representative at the UN, saying that by endorsing an international gun-control scheme. Archbishop Celestino Migliore cooperated in "a direct attack on the God-given right of law-abiding citizens to self-defense."

John Michael Snyder, a veteran gun lobbyist, took issue with Archbishop Migliore for his statements in support of the proposed UN Program of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects. That program, he noted, would entail worldwide gun control under UN auspices, denying private citizens the right to own firearms without explicit government approval. The program, Snyder observed, would violate the rights of American citizens to bear firearms, as guaranteed by the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution.

Snyder argued that petty criminals and powerful tyrants alike prey on individuals who cannot defend themselves. “When push comes to shove,” he said, “the ability of an individual to defend life from terrorist and other violent criminal action depends on whether or not that individual can get and use guns."
A practicing Catholic, Snyder is the author of Gun Saint, a biography of St. Gabriel Possenti, the Catholic seminarian who used his proficiency with handguns to rescue Italian villagers from a gang of bandits in 1860.

 

[daedong]

FACT is you cannot prove or disprove a God. Don't even try to "mix" science with religion, personally, I think that is part of the issue, particularly in the past.

I realize this is why it comes down to faith.

That damn woman had to eat from that tree of smarts.

If this is not the case (from my first sentence on this post), what is your scientiffic hypothesis on the God that you believe in?

Heck, everyone could just go back to the basics and run around nude.

Reminds me of a joke. What's the first thing Adam said to Eve?

Stand back, I don't know how big this thing gets!

This is another good point.
If god is so damn powerful and superior why did he bother with Adam and Eve when she ate that apple? He should have just killed them and started again.

One other question, if this so called God is so almighty why would he care if we worship him or not? Is he on some sort of power/ego trip?

 

[Cityboy]

Okay, we were fine until now. It is clear for all to see what you can understand and what you cannot understand.

Just in case something is not clear for you to see, let me make something perfectly clear for you; you will never tell me when it is time for me to run along. Are we clear on that issue pal?

Dargo, just get over yourself, pal. You are not as big a bad ass as you think you are and you do not intimidate me in the least. Don't be a smart ass and then cry and make threats when someone turns it back on you.

So, run along now, little boy.

 

[daedong]

People accept the theory of evolution as fact, but it is not proven.
People accept the theory of black holes as fact, but it is not proven.

No they don't, its a theory, with lots of strong evidence to support it. Faith has nothing.

 

[Dargo]

Dargo, just get over yourself, pal. You are not as big a bad ass as you think you are and you do not intimidate me in the least. Don't be a smart ass and then cry and make threats when someone turns it back on you.

So, run along now, little boy.

You're showing your complete and total ignorance. When I asked you if you believed in something you haven't seen, your reply was something I'd expect from an 8 year old. I can show you what you listed. Use your mind man! I'm not going to help you any further than that because you have shown a tendency to be a complete smart ass who thinks they are far more intelligent than they are.

As far as your childish "run along now" comments, get back with me when you own your own site and I'm stupid enough to join said site. Otherwise go get a bucket of sand, a spoon and a hammer. Do I need to send instructions along with what you are to do with those items?

I've ignored most of your childish and smart ass comments to most people here and just passed them off as you being insecure and immature. It seems that you are showing your ass more than usual now. Having issues with your allowance?

 

[Melensdad]

All, I would like to suggest that there are a few posts here that are bordering on uncivil. We should be able to stick to the topic without getting into person conflicts outside of the topic. We are in the debate & discussion area, which is generally given much wider quarter but it is not immune to moderation by the moderators.

Let's stick to the heart of the discussion and stay away from the personal conflicts.

 

[Sir Knight]

How do you know what you are quoting is actually the "word of God", and not, say...the word of King George?

Because the bible was compiled by the church which was given the authority to do so by the Son of God. Independent historical accounts from different sources bear this out.

In other words, you are ignorant of other religions.

That is correct.

Any Baptist, or many other Protestant demination's ministers could argue that point with you. My point here was that even the numerous Christian sects cannot agree what is actually the truth. They call "truth" their interpretation of scripture.

And my point is that using scripture, historical events and logical deductions drawn from scripture and historical events, I can support the truth of the Catholic Church.

Perhaps I am somewhat ignorant of Catholic teachings, just as you are ignorant of any religion outside of your sect of Christianity. Protestants, at least the churches I have attended over the years, do not believe purgatory exists.

Just because they do not believe in something does not make it so. I refer you to the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man as found in Luke 16:19-31. We see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

Additionally, note that in 1 Cor. 15:29-30 Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Again, those in hell are forever lost and no amount of prayers can atone for their sins and those in heaven are free of sin and do not need to have their sins atoned for. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Then I'd suggest you attend protestant services and begin learning. All sects have their reasons why they are right and the other sects are wrong. What makes you certain your sect is right?

Just look around your community. What is the population of your community? How many different churches are there in your community? Divide the population of your community by the number of churches and examine the result. What does that tell you?

There are about 2 billions Christians in this world. One billion of them are Catholic and one billion of them are non-Catholic.

In John 17:21 Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

The bible tells us that a kingdom divided against itself will not stand. That is why the Catholic Church has remained united for 2,000 years, and the Protestant sects, in less than a quarter of that time, has continue to splinter by the hundreds each year.

 

[Sir Knight]

This, to me, is your own admission that you truly do not know, and that you are hoping that you will not burn in hell for eternity.

None of us can ever be certain of our salvation. Even St. Paul, who was obviously filled with the Holy Spirit and wrote many parts of the infallible Word of God, still feared for his salvation.

 

[Sir Knight]

Speaking of Catholics and gun control, since I don't follow whats going on in the Catholic church, what ever became of this story from two years ago?


Washington, Aug. 12, 2005 (CWNews.com) - An American expert on gun laws has sharply criticized the Vatican's representative at the UN, saying that by endorsing an international gun-control scheme. Archbishop Celestino Migliore cooperated in "a direct attack on the God-given right of law-abiding citizens to self-defense."

John Michael Snyder, a veteran gun lobbyist, took issue with Archbishop Migliore for his statements in support of the proposed UN Program of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects. That program, he noted, would entail worldwide gun control under UN auspices, denying private citizens the right to own firearms without explicit government approval. The program, Snyder observed, would violate the rights of American citizens to bear firearms, as guaranteed by the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution.

Snyder argued that petty criminals and powerful tyrants alike prey on individuals who cannot defend themselves. “When push comes to shove,” he said, “the ability of an individual to defend life from terrorist and other violent criminal action depends on whether or not that individual can get and use guns."
A practicing Catholic, Snyder is the author of Gun Saint, a biography of St. Gabriel Possenti, the Catholic seminarian who used his proficiency with handguns to rescue Italian villagers from a gang of bandits in 1860.

I don't understand what this is making reference to since the Vatican is PRO-gun -- from the Vatican's Web site ...

... In a world marked by evil, the right of legitimate defense by means of arms EXISTS ... ​

 

[Melensdad]

The bible tells us that a kingdom divided against itself will not stand. That is why the Catholic Church has remained united for 2,000 years, and the Protestant sects, in less than a quarter of that time, has continue to splinter by the hundreds each year.

Interestingly some of the Protestants are coming back to the Catholic Church, and coming back en mass. The Traditional Anglican Church, by unanimous vote of its Bishops, has sent a letter and emissaries to the Pope asking to be allowed back into the Catholic Church. The entire T.A.C., then has asked to return to where it started. Similarly, shortly after the petition from the T.A.C., the Traditional Church of Ireland also asked to rejoin the Catholic Church. Action on this is all pending.

But, going back to the Reformation I've always thought it was interesting that in letters written by Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran Church, essentially admitted he was wrong.

 

[daedong]

I have asked fairly basic questions in post 65 and 75, no one has responded, am I right in thinking no one has the answers?

 

[Sir Knight]

Post #75 ...

This is another good point.
If god is so damn powerful and superior why did he bother with Adam and Eve when she ate that apple? He should have just killed them and started again.

Because He is a merciful God. What parent would kill his own children when they disobeyed him?

One other question, if this so called God is so almighty why would he care if we worship him or not? Is he on some sort of power/ego trip?

God didn't create us for His sake but for our sake.

 

[Sir Knight]

Post #65 ...

This is what I was taught too,
So that means at least 85% of the population will go to hell not to mention all those that preceded Christ.

How do you Know you have the right God, You may just be making him madder and madder because you have the wrong one?

Do you think that had you been born in India you would be a Christian?

... It all comes down to faith --

"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have NOT seen and YET have believed." - John 20:29
​

 

[daedong]

Post #75 ... Because He is a merciful God. What parent would kill his own children when they disobeyed him?


God didn't create us for His sake but for our sake.

1ST
So instead he chose to allow humans to be evil so they could kill one another in Gods name, so the lesson from this would be it is alright for parents to allow their kids to kill one another. Logic would tell me any fair peace loving thing would take 2 lives (Adam and Eve) to save millions.

In other words, God would not kill to rid sinners but allows his creation to kill in his name.

2ND
So we could suffer, kill each other and destroy the planet.


You have not made any attempt to answer this question.
"Do you think that had you been born in India you would be a Christian?"

 

[Cityboy]

You're showing your complete and total ignorance. When I asked you if you believed in something you haven't seen, your reply was something I'd expect from an 8 year old. I can show you what you listed. Use your mind man! I'm not going to help you any further than that because you have shown a tendency to be a complete smart ass who thinks they are far more intelligent than they are.

As far as your childish "run along now" comments, get back with me when you own your own site and I'm stupid enough to join said site. Otherwise go get a bucket of sand, a spoon and a hammer. Do I need to send instructions along with what you are to do with those items?

I've ignored most of your childish and smart ass comments to most people here and just passed them off as you being insecure and immature. It seems that you are showing your ass more than usual now. Having issues with your allowance?

So, I take it you do not wish to engage in a civil debate? You're setting a fine Christian example.

Have a blessed day!

Now run along and play nice with the other children.

 

[Cityboy]

None of us can ever be certain of our salvation. Even St. Paul, who was obviously filled with the Holy Spirit and wrote many parts of the infallible Word of God, still feared for his salvation.

Protestants preach "Once saved, always saved." It would really suck to have all this faith and belief and still get toasted.

You see, here is yet another conflict of Christianity. What good is salvation if it can be taken away?

 

[daedong]

None of us can ever be certain of our salvation. Even St. Paul, who was obviously filled with the Holy Spirit and wrote many parts of the infallible Word of God, still feared for his salvation.

God didn't create us for His sake but for our sake.

Isn't this a contradiction?