• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

Score one for OkeeDon the Democrat....

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
To me, the question of which way the grounding hole should face on an electical outlet is just as improtant as whether or not the death penalty is an effective deterrent, and I worry about both of them until I come to terms with an answer that makes sense (the grounding hole should be on the bottom so the ground plug helps to support the plug,...

First off, I agree on the grounding hole thing. But, my main issue is that it looks "wrong" and "upside down" with it up. Anyway, to meet code, all of the damn outlets in my pool house had to be installed upside down. It took me well over one full day to later change them back! Maybe I'm slow, but there are 73 of the darn things!! I still don't get their explanation as to why they should be installed upside down now; something about not being shocked if your hand comes down on the plug etc. I have news for them. When I take a plug out, I grasp it on both sides and sort of wiggle a little while pulling out. I've never used the side of my hand to hack down on a plug! What's up with that? :smileywac
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Doc said:
You guys make me think. You make me question beliefs. I thank you all for that. :tiphat:

BH,
I know your question is for Danny. But, I can't help but throw in my two cents. As for the death penalty I have no problem with it. But, and this is where you make me wonder about my belief, I have faith in the judicial system to decide who should be put to death by the death penalty. I have never thought about should anyone who kills another be put to death, but up front with extenuating circumstances, this seems extreme. Nothing is cut and dry. That's why our courts are so busy. So, am I lame for not thinking thru the hard part of the death penalty? I've never considered that before. Maybe I am taking the easy way out ....but then again, that is why we have lawyers and judges. To figure out these tough questions as to what the penalty for each crime should be. What do you think?

Doc,
Having faith in the judicial system I hope is not to imply it's doing it's job. The reason the courts are so busy is because we fail miserably in administering it properly! The primary reason the courts are busy is because of repeat offenders and manipulative lawyers. We are not harsh enough the first time to inhibit continued practices.

My home was broken into 12 years ago. $19,000 dollars worth of goods, $13,000 which were high grade shotguns. I got no help by law enforcement and conducted my own investigation with the help of over 30 NRA friends. One of which was a pawn shop owner who broke the law to help me, I recovered a $4,000 shotgun for $150.

The fence ask my pawn shop owner friend what was wrong with the shotgun because it clearly stated it was a 12 guage but a 12 gauge wouldn't fit in the barrel (it had the 20 gauge competiton skeet tubes in the barrel). My friend refused to return the gun and told the fence it was obviously stolen and gave the fence what he had in it, $150. Action wasn't taken on the fence because the pawn shop owner would have gotten in trouble and I wouldn't have got my gun. The fence was reported later with the aid of other members on a completely different situation.

I reported my gun to insurance as recovered. Police called and wanted to know the circumstances. I refused and indicated it was by no help from them. They wanted my gun for evidense with no suspects???, I refused and immediately took all my guns to another NRA friend (owner of a safe and lock company) for safe keeping until things cooled. They called 3 more times over a 2 year period and demanded the gun, I never obeyed, they never had a suspect???.

The reason for the long post is to explain why I feel the way I do about gun control, law enforcement and the judicial system. I've had guns taken away, been a victim of crime and witnessed the failure of the judicial system. Sorry, but I will take the law into my own hands in certain situations after having been a victim.

The death penalty is a go for undisputed murder AND under certain circumstances interuption of normal life! The judicial system is too soft and the reason gun control is even an issue. Strictly enforce the laws we have now and the gun control lobby goes away........IMO!
 

OkeeDon

New member
Big Dog, you missed a really important point that both California and I made. Both of us came to our conclusions about gun responsiblity after we had guns stolen.

You had $13,000 worth of guns stolen and recovered a $4,000 gun. Doesn't it bother you that there are still $9,000 worth of your guns out there somewhere, maybe being used to commit a crime? Maybe one of those guns was or will be used in a drive-by shooting that kills some baby in a crib when the shot goes wide. It's happened in the small city next to ours several times. How do you feel about that? Is it more important fro you to own a gun than it is to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals? If you had never bought those guns in the first place, could they have been stolen?

The existing laws prevent criminals from buying guns, especially if those laws are strictly enforced, as you suggest. Therefore, the only way criminals can get their hands on guns is to steal them. The guns they generally steal are from gun owners like you. If you own a gun, you are putting that gun in a position to be possibly stolen. Therefore, you are directly responsible for the criminal getting the gun.

I no longer own any guns. Therefore, it is impossible for a criminal to steal a gun from me. Therefore, I am not responsible for any criminals getting their hands on guns. The only people responsible for criminals getting guns are the people who own guns.
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
Big Dog, you missed a really important point that both California and I made. Both of us came to our conclusions about gun responsiblity after we had guns stolen.

You had $13,000 worth of guns stolen and recovered a $4,000 gun. Doesn't it bother you that there are still $9,000 worth of your guns out there somewhere, maybe being used to commit a crime? Maybe one of those guns was or will be used in a drive-by shooting that kills some baby in a crib when the shot goes wide. It's happened in the small city next to ours several times. How do you feel about that? Is it more important fro you to own a gun than it is to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals? If you had never bought those guns in the first place, could they have been stolen?

The existing laws prevent criminals from buying guns, especially if those laws are strictly enforced, as you suggest. Therefore, the only way criminals can get their hands on guns is to steal them. The guns they generally steal are from gun owners like you. If you own a gun, you are putting that gun in a position to be possibly stolen. Therefore, you are directly responsible for the criminal getting the gun.

I no longer own any guns. Therefore, it is impossible for a criminal to steal a gun from me. Therefore, I am not responsible for any criminals getting their hands on guns. The only people responsible for criminals getting guns are the people who own guns.

NO, I no longer have responsibility for the gun because it was obtained throught the commitment of a crime. Doesn't bother me what they do with the gun! I don't commit crimes and I ain't pulling the trigger if they do use it in a crime. If they can't get the gun from your house they will get it from somebody else. Hell, I want them back, but I know that ain't happening.

I hope you never have to face it, but what are you going to do when you hear glass break and footsteps in your home at night? At my place they're in for a rude awakening. They will be faced with at least as much force as they're carrying. I ain't cowering or submit my family to the potential!!! Jee the thought of watching your wife raped, your kid beaten and your belongings stolen is ugly. Your gunless world is too far away for me to take that chance! I'm not about to be a trend setter to a helpless home....
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Sorry if I'm re-hashing but the thread's too long to re-read.

I think it may have been noted by Dargo, but if a crime was committed to take something of mine and then used in a negligent way, how is the person who got stolen from responsible?
You're specifically targeting guns but I'd like to substitute the word "gun" for "car" since it can be easily used as a weapon. If a person gets carjacked and the criminal subsequently uses that car in a criminal way or hurts someone, is the person that got carjacked responsible?
If I may Don, I'm going to take a paragraph from your post and substitute the word "gun" for "car".
OkeeDon said:
I no longer own any cars. Therefore, it is impossible for a criminal to steal a car from me. Therefore, I am not responsible for any criminals getting their hands on cars. The only people responsible for criminals getting cars are the people who own cars.
Do we all need to give up our cars?
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
You can find yourself in that 'Mr Deep Pockets' role also, if your car is stolen and kills someone. Liability insurance for an attorney to represent you is the customary way to avoid personal discomfort in that situation.

Gotta run - I start Jury Duty this morning!
 

OkeeDon

New member
California is right. If someone else drives your car and causes bodily injury or property damage, you will be sued. Doesn't matter if it was stolen; you should have kept it protected better. The concept is negligence. If you permit your guns to be stolen, you are negligent, and negligence creates responsibility.

It's a moot point, anyway, because a couple of times now, I have defined guns as a special case because of their ballistic nature. In order to cause damage with a car, you have to come into physical contact with someone or some thing. Same with a club, a knife, your hands, an axe and most other methods of hurting someone. Ballistic weapons are unique in that they can inflict damage from a distance, from hiding and with great speed. As I said in another thread, I can kill you with a gun from a great distance -- I just heard the other night that a 50 cal sniper rifle has been used to "engage" (read: kill) someone at a distance of 2650 yards -- that's about a mile and a half! That would be tough to do with a car.

I went on to lump most deadly ballistic weapons into the same category, including cross bows, etc. Strictly speaking, bows and arrows, slingshots and rock throwing fall into the same category, but other than David and Goliath and Injuns, they aren't commonly used this way. Once other weapons disappear, if slingshots become a problem, we can always add them.

So, I reject your analogy. There are other uses for a car other than inflicting damage. There is no other use for a gun other than inflicting damage, even if it's just to put holes in paper targets. A paper punch is a better tool.
 

OkeeDon

New member
Big Dog said:
I hope you never have to face it, but what are you going to do when you hear glass break and footsteps in your home at night? At my place they're in for a rude awakening. They will be faced with at least as much force as they're carrying. I ain't cowering or submit my family to the potential!!! Jee the thought of watching your wife raped, your kid beaten and your belongings stolen is ugly. Your gunless world is too far away for me to take that chance! I'm not about to be a trend setter to a helpless home....
At the risk of going to far and being rude, I have to say: paranoid delusions.

How many people are there, and how many have seen their wife raped, their kid beaten and their belongings stolen? Other than in dictatorships or the Bible? It's never happened to me or anyone I know. Of course, I live in the 2nd safest large city in Florida (we finally got beat by Cape Coral after 6 straight years of being the safest) and the 24th safest large city in the United States; this is probably a better deterrent than a gun. Let me ask you a question: If you ha ve an intruder and go for your gun, how would you like the bad guy to blow you away simply because you became a threat? That's much more likely to happen to you than to me, assuming an equal chance of a bad guy in the first place.

Further, while I wouldn't like to have my wife raped nor my kids beaten, a bad guy can have my belongings. It's just stuff. I'm not about to take the risk of going for a weapon and inciting a bad guy to hurt me in order to defend himself. There are occasional bad guys who kill first and rob afterwards, but if they're that determined to eliminate witnesses, you have no chance against them, either. They'll kill you before you can even think "gun".

Macho scenarios may reassure you, but it's highly unlikely they'll work in the Real World.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
California is right. If someone else drives your car and causes bodily injury or property damage, you will be sued. Doesn't matter if it was stolen; you should have kept it protected better. The concept is negligence.
Although you live in a safe area, you're telling me that if someone ripped Mrs. Don out of her car in a car-jacking and does something illegal or hurts someone, that Mrs. Don is negligent and should have protected it better. If so Don, I don't even know how to reply to such a thought.
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
At the risk of going to far and being rude, I have to say: paranoid delusions.

Excuse me for being rude but I truly believe your out of touch and an easy target. It wouldn't take a great criminal to watch you and find out!

How many people are there, and how many have seen their wife raped, their kid beaten and their belongings stolen? Other than in dictatorships or the Bible? It's never happened to me or anyone I know. Of course, I live in the 2nd safest large city in Florida (we finally got beat by Cape Coral after 6 straight years of being the safest) and the 24th safest large city in the United States; this is probably a better deterrent than a gun. Let me ask you a question: If you ha ve an intruder and go for your gun, how would you like the bad guy to blow you away simply because you became a threat? That's much more likely to happen to you than to me, assuming an equal chance of a bad guy in the first place.

I'll die knowing I at least I tried to protect my family and he's gonna have to shoot my wife and I at the same time....We both be packing (sorry, lame attempt at humor)

Further, while I wouldn't like to have my wife raped nor my kids beaten, a bad guy can have my belongings. It's just stuff. I'm not about to take the risk of going for a weapon and inciting a bad guy to hurt me in order to defend himself. There are occasional bad guys who kill first and rob afterwards, but if they're that determined to eliminate witnesses, you have no chance against them, either. They'll kill you before you can even think "gun".

Macho scenarios may reassure you, but it's highly unlikely they'll work in the Real World.

If you want to be one of the long shot chances you speak of, feel free to accommodate.

BTW..........You didn't answer the question! What would you do if your home was invaded at night while you were in bed? Let alone anything else the invader might like to impose on you! Cross your fingers?
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
a bad guy can have my belongings. It's just stuff. I'm not about to take the risk of going for a weapon and inciting a bad guy to hurt me in order to defend himself. There are occasional bad guys who kill first and rob afterwards, but if they're that determined to eliminate witnesses, you have no chance against them, either. They'll kill you before you can even think "gun".

Macho scenarios may reassure you, but it's highly unlikely they'll work in the Real World.

After your car or home is broken into for the third, fourth, eight time. Are you going to feel the same way? How would you feel after you were held down and had to watch some guy rape your wife or daughter, knowing that if you had a gun that maybe you could have prevented this. The emotional and psychological damage of being a helpless victim is much more damaging than that of at least trying to prevent the crime.

Florida has very progressive gun laws (CCW, right to defend) thanks to the NRA and Jeb Bush. I would suggest that your safe haven is the direct result of some of these policies. Let's see you move into a poverty stricken area of NYC and see how long you last without being able to defend yourself.

Or move to Canada and live in a big city. Park your car on the street and see how many car stereos, air bags, insurance papers, door locks, or windows you lose or are damaged. Even after the insurance deductible it gets costly and it a hassle and expense no law abiding tax payer should have to burden.

It is your right to defend (or not defend) yourself from criminals but please don't impose your beliefs or values on me. That is not fair, I have not performed any crimes. My guns are secure and if they are stolen from me then I should not be held responsible for a crime that someone else performs. That is just plain wrong.
 

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
OkeeDon said:
California is right. If someone else drives your car and causes bodily injury or property damage, you will be sued. Doesn't matter if it was stolen; you should have kept it protected better. The concept is negligence. If you permit your guns to be stolen, you are negligent, and negligence creates responsibility.

It's a moot point, anyway, because a couple of times now, I have defined guns as a special case because of their ballistic nature. In order to cause damage with a car, you have to come into physical contact with someone or some thing. Same with a club, a knife, your hands, an axe and most other methods of hurting someone. Ballistic weapons are unique in that they can inflict damage from a distance, from hiding and with great speed. As I said in another thread, I can kill you with a gun from a great distance -- I just heard the other night that a 50 cal sniper rifle has been used to "engage" (read: kill) someone at a distance of 2650 yards -- that's about a mile and a half! That would be tough to do with a car.

I went on to lump most deadly ballistic weapons into the same category, including cross bows, etc. Strictly speaking, bows and arrows, slingshots and rock throwing fall into the same category, but other than David and Goliath and Injuns, they aren't commonly used this way. Once other weapons disappear, if slingshots become a problem, we can always add them.

So, I reject your analogy. There are other uses for a car other than inflicting damage. There is no other use for a gun other than inflicting damage, even if it's just to put holes in paper targets. A paper punch is a better tool.

The crud of an "legal weagle" that would take a case where the defendant is the owner of a stolen car, and the judge that would allow the case, should both be jailed for being stupid! It is bs like this that makes living on the gov't look good. NO money, NO car, NO insurance, NO food, what have you got to take then........sue me, who the F$%^ cares. But meet me out back judgy boy, let me show you the real world of beat your a$$ with a justice stick! (read H and B)
 

Big Dog

Large Member
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Big Dog said:
If you want to be one of the long shot chances you speak of, feel free to accommodate.

BTW..........You didn't answer the question! What would you do if your home was invaded at night while you were in bed? Let alone anything else the invader might like to impose on you! Cross your fingers?

Was sorta looking for an answer to the question that hasn't been answered, anyone gunless is invited to answer!
 

TINGUY

New member
Big Dog said:
Was sorta looking for an answer to the question that hasn't been answered, anyone gunless is invited to answer!

Not Gunless but they are stored in a way that it is unlikely I could get to them to make a difference. I think this is true of everyone I personally know that own guns. They are mostly hunting guns stored in a gun case. I also know no one personally that has been in the situation you are describing. To be honest the threats to life and limb to me and those I know does not come from violent crime from an unknown person. So there for the risk is equivalent of me or mine being threatened by let say..,.. a Tank from the local national guard armory. And no I have no preparations for that either, should I?
 
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