Religion and war....

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
We should all respect all religions even if it isn't the one of our choosing. If it were not for religion, there would have been no wars for the most part. Wars have been started for many reasons, but in the end, it always boils down to one side doesn't believe in respect for the other sides religion. They can drape it in democracy, or any other claim, but my opinion is that it almost always boils down to religion.
 
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Dargo

Like a bad penny...
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Junkman said:
We should all respect all religions even if it isn't the one of our choosing. If it were not for religion, there would have been no wars for the most part. Wars have been started for many reasons, but in the end, it always boils down to one side doesn't believe in respect for the other sides religion. They can drape it in democracy, or any other claim, but my opinion is that it almost always boils down to religion.

Do you think that that is the reason that the homeland for most all religions has been at war since the beginning of recorded history?? Please don't take any war or anti-war sentiment here, but I think were our troops are now, those people have never known anything but war for generations.
 
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Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
The only countries that have been exempt from war are those that were unsettled by the white man originally. Example, North and South America. Now that the white man has settled these regions of the world, there is turmoil because the white mans religious beliefs are that only his belief counts and the rest are wrong. Example, Jews vs. Muslims in the Arab block of countries, Aerian vs. Jews in Germany and surrounding countries, Protestants vs. Catholics in Ireland, Bosnia with the ethnic cleansing (Serbs vs Croats). Same for so many other regions of the world. The only place that religion hasn't caused a problem is when religion is banned such as in China. Now, there is a new religion starting in China and there is turmoil concerning it.
 
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bczoom

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Junkman said:
The only place that religion hasn't caused a problem is when religion is banned such as in China. Now, there is a new religion starting in China and there is turmoil concerning it.

Huh??? To my knowledge, there's a lot of religion in China.
Chinese traditional, Taoism, Confusian, Buddhism, Maoism, Christian, Islam
 

LarryRB

New member
in fifty five hundred and some years of recorded history, there has been only fifty known years of world peace. Most of it, a week here and week there at a time,, nothing known more than three months of peace,,, Of this and known wars, almost all are directly related or indirectly related to religious beliefs.
 

EastTexFrank

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"No war in North or South America before the white man"

Oh Junkman, what have you done? That is completely untrue. Go make sure of your facts before making a statement like that ... please!!!!!

I think that you'll find that religious difference is usually the superficial excuse for war. What is usually the root cause of war is land and the control of it.
 

Melensdad

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Well not wanting to get into the North & South America thing, or even the China thing, but with the desire to start up more grief ;) can someone please explain to me the 2 following things.

Catholics vs Protastants in Ireland
Shiia vs Sunni in the middle east


I honestly don't get either of those fights. In Ireland don't both believe in the same God and the same Jesus and the same base core beliefs? In the middle east, don't both believe in the same base belief that revolves around Muhammad and the core beliefs that he is the savior?

Honestly, I don't understand either of those fights. I'm not trying to make light of either, I just don't get it.
 

DaveNay

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dzalphakilo said:
I would think that money/power is the "cause" of war, not religion.

Now, religion has been used as an "excuse".

Hmmm...I would actually say that money, power & religion are very much on equal ranking. All other reasons boil down a combination of these.

Dave
 

Doc

Administrator
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dzalphakilo said:
I would think that money/power is the "cause" of war, not religion.

Now, religion has been used as an "excuse".


Exactly. Looking back at the more recent wars, WWII for example Hitler was after power.
The lines were not divided by religion, but by those for Hitler and his ways and those who saw him for the madman that he was. I do not believe religion caused that war.
WWI started with an assassination of archduke Ferdinand (wasn't it). I do not know allot about this war, but I can't remember a religious overtone to it.

Vietnam (the undeclared war) had everything to do with politics and stopping communism in it's tracks before it was on our doorstep.

Iraq - Oil! er should I say human rights. Neither are religious. Although the factions that are fighting do have very different religious beliefs.

Other wars I can think of that did not have religious overtones, the civil war, war of 1812, the French Indian War. Most were fought to see who would get control of the land.....as was most of the wars I mention above.

I think religion can be used as an excuse to motivate the people who are doing the actual fighting but I don't believe it is the real reason for the war.

I'm not a history buff, so feel free to educate me if any of the above statements are way off base.
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
Hitler wanted more land to provide for what he felt would be the expansion of the Airen race, which as most know, didn't include, Jews or Gypsies among others. This was the reason for his expansion policies.
 

OkeeDon

Charter Member
B_Skurka said:
Well not wanting to get into the North & South America thing, or even the China thing, but with the desire to start up more grief ;) can someone please explain to me the 2 following things.

Catholics vs Protastants in Ireland
Shiia vs Sunni in the middle east


I honestly don't get either of those fights. In Ireland don't both believe in the same God and the same Jesus and the same base core beliefs? In the middle east, don't both believe in the same base belief that revolves around Muhammad and the core beliefs that he is the savior?

Honestly, I don't understand either of those fights. I'm not trying to make light of either, I just don't get it.

I can't help you on the Shia vs. Sunni, although I think it might have something to do with secular government vs. religious government. For example, Iran is a religious state, while Saddam's Iraq was secular. The new majority in Iraq will probably gravitate towards a more religious government, in line with Iran. I have some doubts as to whether that is really the outcome we would like, but it's what we will get.

However, as the grandson of a man who wore Orange every St. Patrick's Day until he died, I do know a little about the Irish situation. It's not Catholic vs. Protestant in the sense that we think about those groups. The religious angle is just a convenient label. It's actually British vs. nationalist Irish. It goes back to the 17th century when William of Orange defeated King James for the British throne. Great Britain became Protestant mostly because the king said so. Most of the Irish did not want to be British, but wanted a separate republic of their own. Thus, the nationalism. They also tended to retain the Catholicism they had under King James.

The reason why the minority of two northern counties (and coincidentally Protestant) was able to hold off the nationalist Irish (and coincidentally Catholic) was because the Ulstermen had the power of the British Empire behind them.

There was a spill-over of religious prejudice as a result of the political battles, but it didn't always make a lot of sense. My Grandmother was typical. During my high school days, I had dated a couple of Catholic girls, and she did not approve. After I met Betsy, and it looked like it was heading towards the rest of our lives, I took Betsy to meet Grandmother. Grandmother was about 87 years old at the time, a large lady, sitting in a Queen Ann chair at the end of a long, narrow living room. Betsy and I entered from the other end of the room, and approached much in the same way as one would approach a throne. "Grandmother", I said, "This is Betsy. Betsy, this is my Grandmother." Grandmother shiifted in the chair and looked directly at Betsy. "Young lady", she asked, "Are you Catholic?" "No. M'am", Betsy replied, "I'm Lutheran." "Harrumph, Just as bad", said Grandmother Graham.

That was more than 43 years ago and Betsy and I are still together, so I guess those pejudices were not passed down. But, when I wear something green on St. Patricks Day, I wonder if my Grandfather is rolling in his grave.
 

Melensdad

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OK Don, I get the Ireland thing now.


As to the color choice. Do I gather correctly that if you are Protestant you wear ORANGE on St. Pat's day to protest the Catholic holiday but if you are Catholic you wear Green to support it?



 

OkeeDon

Charter Member
Yes. I'm not sure where the "wearin' o' th' green" comes from, but the orange goes all the way back to William of Orange, 1690, I think.
 

loki2

Charter Member
B_Skurka said:
Well not wanting to get into the North & South America thing, or even the China thing, but with the desire to start up more grief ;) can someone please explain to me the 2 following things.

Catholics vs Protastants in Ireland
Shiia vs Sunni in the middle east


I honestly don't get either of those fights. In Ireland don't both believe in the same God and the same Jesus and the same base core beliefs? In the middle east, don't both believe in the same base belief that revolves around Muhammad and the core beliefs that he is the savior?

Honestly, I don't understand either of those fights. I'm not trying to make light of either, I just don't get it.

The Irish just like to shoot each other. That is why we like to keep them drunk, so that they can't hit anything. Only trouble was that someone taught them to make bombs, that they did not have to aim, and that screwed up the whole plan. Such a pretty country with such idiots in it.
What I really want to do I go out and put a bomb in a school bus. Won;t that make me feel like a real man?:drink: Mean, petty and stupid!!!!!!!:StickOutT
 

messickfarmequ

Charter Member
I took a college class on world religions awhile ago. They talk about this Iraq war as against democary but I think it goes beyond that. Islam is a very brutal and unaccepting faith. The Koran is pretty black and white when it comes to things like not accepting black africans and killing Christians. I spent sometime on speakers corner in Londen where spokespersons for each faith duke it out on the street and the Islamic guys stood right there and said that the black guy in the crowd will never go to heaven - I was blown away. My opinion is that their hate for us stems somwhat from our foreign policy - but is put into action by the extremists of that faith that really believe what they are doing is fufilling their mission. People like Osama Bin Laden are fighting a religous war, and our government has become so poloticaly correct that it is inept when it comes to addressing that aspect of this war.
 
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