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Newbie prospective buyer

walt stradlater

New member
Hi all
I have a large property in VT and have been cutting trails for all kinds of activities. I'd love to groom them in the winter for all kinds of stuff - snowmobile, ski, fatbike, walk, etc.
We get snow that just drifts too deep for a snow mobile, and so i've been looking at Bombis and old Tuckers etc. The key is in the woods I need something relatively small or flexible in tight spots where I'm not constantly forced to back out. Any thoughts? Am I doing this right? :)
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
WARNING. quickly delete your post and never look for a snow cat again. If you don't, likely in a couple years you will have 3 in your yard at various stages of repair, spending all your time and money working on them. Then when you finally get 1 completed, you will sell it and buy 3 more.
 

Snowy Rivers

Well-known member
Snow cats are a disease...no cure either....

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....
All of this aside.
A tucker is a big machine.....Bombi's are not too bad....Depending on snow depth.....

A decent Spryte (Standard width) would do a pretty fair job.

8 foot wide...maybe 8'-6" and pretty decent machine.

Stay away from the big groomer types.

The small machines are going to get bogged down in deep snow when trying to break trail....especially with a blade on them.
 
Hi Walt, I've got all sorts of snowcats (Snow Trac, Tucker, LMC, Pisten Bully) but, having the right size machine for your activity is critical. I sounds like you've identified the most important issue for you. That being, that you need something small because you will be in the woods. Snowcats need a lot of room to maneuver so something small like a Bombi is advantageous. Tracks are also going to be a factor for traction in your snow conditions. The other consideration is your terrain. Do you have hills? If your property is relatively flat then a Bombi (with blade and groomer) will probably do just fine.

My Snow Tracs and Snow Masters are great because of their small size and surprising capabilites. However, they weren't built for heavy work. More of a passenger snowcat. I use them for backcountry ski adventures.

Tuckers are great in drifted snow. I love mine for backcountry snowcat trips. But, they are 16 feet long and can have difficulties in tight woods.

If money isn't an issue then a cat with hydrostatic drives will allow you to "turn on a dime". My PB and LMC can spin and rotate in tight areas. So, it is all about matching up a machine with your conditions and needs.

PS I've seen a BR100 and a Bombi advertised recently. I personally would recommend the BR100. They both appear to be nice machines.
Here's the link. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/395690432073167/?referral_code=undefined

I hope this was helpful,
MountainMike
 

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Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Seriously, don't do it. It is addictive. You will end up building another garage.
 

Snowy Rivers

Well-known member
Mt Mike has it spot on.


Many years ago I did periodic grooming for the local snowmobile club...
We had a Tucker and a Thiokol Spryte. (On and off a couple other privately owned units)
I usually ran the Spryte on the outer reaches mainly because of its size and track layout, but we were grooming the forest service roads and not into the tight trails in the woods.
The narrow trails were just a problem....Here in Oregon we can get everything from light super fluffy powder and a few days later it can be that heavy sticky "Mashed potato" wet stuff.

We had a Bombi for a while and it was fine on level to light grades in fluffy snow...but add heavy wet snow and the little machine just had a tough time on anything but flat ground..

The heavily traveled areas had serious issues with the moguls.....The Tucker only had a drag with a scraper and a couple other appendages that were more or less worthless.....The hydraulics were limited as well.

This was the mid/late 1970's and even the machines that the big parks had were nothing like the elaborate stuff available now.

I would say....Get a machine that has as wide a track as you can get through the area.....As much power as you can get too.
Too narrow of a track is just going to get stuck, too little power and the machine will be worked to death.

Sort of a catch 22......

Perfect snow????.....That is not usually the case....

If you can afford or justify 2 machines.....A herky beast that can deal with nasty condition and a lighter smaller machine that can do a spiffy job in good conditions and handle the tighter trails......

Certainly not a one size fits all me thinks

If you can get to try a couple machines and see wasssup.....maybe this would allow a better choice.....
 

alryA

Well-known member
Hi all
I have a large property in VT and have been cutting trails for all kinds of activities. I'd love to groom them in the winter for all kinds of stuff - snowmobile, ski, fatbike, walk, etc.
We get snow that just drifts too deep for a snow mobile, and so i've been looking at Bombis and old Tuckers etc. The key is in the woods I need something relatively small or flexible in tight spots where I'm not constantly forced to back out. Any thoughts? Am I doing this right? :)
How much $$$ do you want to spend? How much mechanics do you what, or have the time to do? Bombies come with different track widths but are becoming more rare over the years.... Tucker does make a smaller model but its still wider than a Bombi.
 

walt stradlater

New member
this is all very helpful, thanks!

i guess regarding budget it depends on what i need… i can be a bit flexible because what i REALLY dont want is to waste a good chunk of change on something inadequate that becomes leaky yard art that doesnt go out.

so, $10-$50k?

i have some flexibility to widen trails with a track loader and chainsaws, but a bombi with a blade and twice the power seems like it would be great
 

alryA

Well-known member
More questions I forgot to ask, what do you plan to tow or groom with?? And do you hope to till? Grooming snow is my forte.
 
Last edited:

walt stradlater

New member
More questions I forgot to ask, what do you plan to tow or groom with?? And do you hope to till? Grooming snow is my forte.
Ok, I have assumed that this is what I will figure out once I narrow down a platform that fits my needs. If I had all the space in the world like a ski mountain this would get easier. I am nervous about maneuverability, but right now once we get a good dump and drifts I'm kinda just stuck on foot so on the other hand I think anything (even a UTV on mattracks or whatever) would be better than nothing. Unfortunately what I've learned about after market track sets just isnt that confidence inspiring functionally.
 

alryA

Well-known member
I tend to like atv's and utv's with pods and got many, many thousands of hours operating them in snow. I personally own a 6x6 with pods and plan on getting another. I've also operated Bully 100, 150, 400 and the now gone model Paana. Seems you best look at a UTV which are quite useful in the summer as well. This photo is our machine.
bossindeepsnow1.jpg

defenderdrags1.jpg
 

walt stradlater

New member
we have an older yamaha utv that would take tracks or we could upgrade. a lot of mattracks / camoplast stuff just looks not that robust, no?
 

alryA

Well-known member
You need more ponies than that Yamaha has. We get snow here and would only look at 1000cc machines. In fact, we're looking at a 6x6 with that engine. If you don't get much snow, then the JD machines that have smaller engines, have had good results with groomers.

For pods, I only looks at ones made by Soucy. I'm NOT a fan of Camso.
 

GMoose

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Question to alryA: I have zero experience with an atv or utv with tracks, however I have talked to people who have used them and they indicated they go in groups when they go out because they always get stuck and they need a second one to pull them out. Now this could be operator inexperience or maybe snow conditions, but just curious with your experience of staying un-stuck.
 

walt stradlater

New member
Question to alryA: I have zero experience with an atv or utv with tracks, however I have talked to people who have used them and they indicated they go in groups when they go out because they always get stuck and they need a second one to pull them out. Now this could be operator inexperience or maybe snow conditions, but just curious with your experience of staying un-stuck.
this is consistent with what i have heard... fun in ideal conditions, but tough to count on. they look like a blast recreationally. hell, i'd love one to drive the trails once they're groomed!
 

redsqwrl

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
walt welcome to the madness, mountain mike and others are giving great pointers. Describe your snow moisture content and levels.

West coast guys get lots of fluffy dry us midwest folks get high moisture fluffy. do you get Atlantic induced high moisture icy snow or doe s lake ontario influence your snow events?

all this helps point you to a good platform, none are perfect for condition.....
 

walt stradlater

New member
redsqwrl (and others!) thank you all for so much input. really v helpful!

I live in a bit of a microclimate that can take on many characters. i'm near Mt. Snow in southern VT but the valley gets dryer and colder and fluffier snow than the rest of VT, at least for Jan/Feb on average. By March it's much wetter and heavier, and April of course is just a godawful mess. I think the degree to which it varies (and, at my place, get quite deep), is what keeps me biased toward slightly more power and slightly suspicious of mattracks type solutions
 
Do you live on the property and have the time to tend the trails regularly, or do you get there only occasionally?
If you can keep the trails packed, you probably won’t need as robust a machine. If you only get to work on them
once in a while, likely going to need a trail breaker.
Other question is, do you need to transport any volume of people or will a smaller cab suffice?
You might look at the older Thiokol 4T2 or 4T4 Trackmasters. 2 and 4 place respectively.
 

walt stradlater

New member
ah yes - to me this is about doing it intermittently. hence thinking a bit more power and a blade (and a winch!). i do have three kids so fun to have more seating but they are spoiled rotten as it is so no need to optimize for seating :)
 

walt stradlater

New member
here are some things available i have found so far
- bombardier 252 w blade. a little big, no passenger space, but looks capable in open space
- bombi / br100. nice and compact, looks low power
- thiokol super imp, looks great, no blade
- dmc1450 no blade, looks pretty identical to the thiokol

theres other stuff but these seem to be in good shape and hovering near what i want for not a ton of money
 

alryA

Well-known member
Question to alryA: I have zero experience with an atv or utv with tracks, however I have talked to people who have used them and they indicated they go in groups when they go out because they always get stuck and they need a second one to pull them out. Now this could be operator inexperience or maybe snow conditions, but just curious with your experience of staying un-stuck.
Was this sport machines and which pods did these use? Of the various machines we operated, that is multiple atv's and utv's we never got a atv stuck but did get the pictured UTV's stuck. Both got stuck one time and snow shoveled out of there bottom and drove off.

I have no experience with sport machines.
Rhino CR in heavey snow III (DL).jpg
defdeepsnow095.jpg
 

alryA

Well-known member
If walt or anyone wants to groom trails, you need to decided what type they will be, that is, who is the end user. Plus what implement you intend to use to create that trail with. I asked if he hoped to till and did not get a response, so I'll guess not.

Grooming XC trails is my forte but I've also done sled trails.
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
You may want to look in the tracked 4x4 section, I was a snow catter for a few years. I had a Thiokol 603 then a Tucker steel track for cabin access. Long story short, the Thiokol did the job but was very hot while driving even with the doors open, fuel consumption was horrible and it was difficult to negotiate tight turns, there was no way the wife could drive it in an emergency so sold it and bought the Tucker. I hauled it to the mountain and had it stored there. The first year and the second eveytime it snowed it got rained on and melted 1/2 way to the cabin and you can't drive a steel track Tucker down bumpy gravel road for miles. I explored my options and put tracks on a Japanese mini truck first. It worked well for me so I put tracks on a Japanese mini van and have never looked back. Will it work for you?? Both builds and testing are in the tracked 4X4 section I would check it out before buying anything.
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Walt,

I grew up in Vermont and snowmobiled there a fair bit, though that was admittedly many years ago. In my experience I have never been somewhere in a snowcat that I couldn’t get to in a snowmobile, but I’ve been lots of places on a snowmobile that a snowcat could never reach. A good sled and competent rider will outperform a snowcat.

UTVs and ATVs on tracks may be the rage, but they aren’t nearly as capable as a snowcat. In fact, the first time I saw a UTV on tracks was at the Utah Winter Sports Park and I chatted with the sales manager of the Polaris dealer I buy from. The first words out of his mouth were "It's not a snowcat". I totally concurr. I’ve posted this before, but I bought a used Polaris Ranger on tracks and took it to the same place my snowcat buddy and I do most of our snowcat testing. Its performance was really disappointing, and the snow wasn’t all that deep. Rather than being an over-the-snow vehicle it kind of chewed it’s way through the snow, and did so slowly. When I say "really disappointing", it was so bad it wasn't worth giving it another try under different conditions. I sold it after one outing in the snow! The idea of trying to use one to tow some grooming equipment strikes me as a non-starter.

The vast majority of my snowcat experience is with rubber belted Tuckers. They, like all snowcats, have their plusses and minuses, but in terms of ease of use a Tucker with an automatic transmission is hard to beat. If you aren’t familiar, the Tucker system uses two axles with two tracks on each axle. When you turn the steering wheel you “crab steer”; meaning the axle assemblies turn opposite each other. If you turn the wheel to the left, the front axle turns left and the rear axle turns right. The effect is a smaller turning radius.

With two track machines you have brake steer machines and hydrostatic cats. Brake steer means you apply brake pressure to slow or stop one of the tracks while the other spins normally. It certainly works, but in my opinion it’s not really smooth and the shorter the turning radius the less smooth the turn. Hydrostatic machines definitely have their advantages, but they also have a lot of complexity. And when something breaks, I think it gets real expensive... real fast.

That brings me back to one of the Tucker advantages: simplicity and ease of repair. While the newer generation machines are bigger heavier and much more complex, the older rubber belted Tuckers are easy to understand and parts availability is pretty darn good. While there are Tucker proprietary parts on them (which Tucker is very proud of) a great deal of the other stuff is readily available. Most, for example have gasoline fueled Chrysler Industrial V-8 engines and parts commonality with their automotive counterparts is excellent. Manual transmissions were made by New Process Gear and most of the automatic transmissions were Allison AT545s. Axles are Dana Spicer. Need a part? Call your local auto parts store.

I chide the Snow Trac mafia on the forum somewhat frequently. They have their plusses, but parts availability is not one of them. When something breaks or wears out, they scramble to try to find a part that will work. Often, it’s another used part in marginally better shape than the one that’s broken. Some other times they try and reverse engineer a part and have it fabricated. That would drive me up the wall...

When you start looking for a machine to buy I strongly suggest you focus on “value” and not price. I understand you will have a budget, and need to stay within that, but the cheapest machine will very likely have a lot of hours which means wear. If you start replacing idler wheels, drive sprockets and track belts the dollars add up fast. You are way better off spending somewhat more on a machine that is in much better shape. Within the Tucker universe sales are typically to governmental agencies, utility companies and some are sold for groomer usage. I recommend staying away from groomers. They tend to get a lot of hard hours and maintenance and repair can be sketchy, at best. Ex- government machines can be good, but sometimes not. Utility companies tend to put low hours on their machines, and they have huge maintenance budgets.

Good Luck!
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
The mini Trucks, atv and utv on tracks in my experience and I have one, work very well on wet heavy snow or snow thats a few days old. Deep powdery snow, not so good. It also comes down to ground pressure. Mine on the mini van is .68 psi. which is pretty good. I used Mattracks UTV tracks rated to 3500# and it weighs 1500#, some other brand tracks do not have the track area for good flotation and will not perform very well. Google stuck snow cat, they get stuck too and when they do its not easy to get them out. I do agree with BFT that what ever you buy, make sure it is low hour and well maintained, as he said repairs can get real expensive real fast.
 

alryA

Well-known member
This photo was taken at a NFS sled survival seminar that trained operators on how to do things with there sleds, like get unstuck. Was really fun to attend!! Especially fun was the survival and shelter training course. Part of this training was we went into this cut-over section to find holes and get our machines stuck. Problem was there was there wasn't enough snow to get our 6x6 stuck while being operated by the spousal unit who had no experience at it... Our 6x6's PSI is quite low. We did help everyone else in the field to get there machines out..

Has the Red squirrel seen this machine in the snow?
Boss in snow471.jpg
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Alry,

I guess it depends on your point of reference. In my opinion that's not deep snow and it's flat ground, so... not much of a test. Before I made the mistake of buying that used Polaris Ranger on tracks, I was curious enough to ask about them on the forum:


I started that thread about three weeks after this picture taken during an epic day of snowmobiling. Seriously deep, fresh snow and we spent a lot of that day getting unstuck. It was exhausting, but a whole lot of fun. These are very experienced riders on top-of-the-line Polaris RMKs. The one in the background was maybe a month old and has a 163" track. The sled in the foreground was a year older and the rider competed in the Jackson Hole Snowmobile Hill Climbs for a number of years. The point being if these guys were getting stuck... well, you get the idea.

DSC00871.JPG
 
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