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Diesel fuel additives

BadAttitude

New member
Does anyone use any, and if so why? I do have enough diesel knowledge to understand the purpose of it.

I believe I'm starting to have a starting problem with my current NH CUT similar to my last one. I've been very strict about using super clean fuel...double filtered every ounce that has been put in it...and I've never used any additives from day one since the SM from my dealer said not to. I do have ~some~ faith in him since AndyMa has had nothing but good things to say about him. Plus the SM did step up to the plate and make good on the repair issue that arose from my TC21

I only use on road fuel from a high volume dealer if it matters.
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
I have used Service Power in my fuel from day one and I have never hand any problems with my engine. When I drove Mercedes diesels (1966 - 1998) I always used a quart of Dextron ATF in a tank full of fuel once every 5 or 6 tanks. I never had a injector or pump problem and I drove those cars until they wouldn't go any further because the bodies were rotting away. Back then, there was no Power Service, but today, there is and that is what I use. By the way, when did AndyMA become the diesel engine expert???? :yankchain:
 

BadAttitude

New member
I made the reference to Andy based on his posts at the other place. Plus he has praised this dealer so many times that I'll remain optimistic until proven otherwise...for now anyways

I've use Dextron in a 6.2 I used to have fior years, but my experience with tractor maintenance is limited to the 7 yrs I've owned them.

At the time of purchase of my current one, I did ask the SM about Power Service...they stock a boat load...and I was a little surprised that he was adamant about NOT using it or anything else.
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
If it is the dealership that I am thinking of, they are the highest priced dealer on the East Coast. When you get that kind of money for a purchase, you can easily absorb a few dollars of warranty repair. Ask LarryRB what his thoughts are about this dealer. I like Andy, but I wouldn't buy from this dealer because of Andy's recommendation.
Getting back to your problem which is what this discussion is about... If they stock "boat loads" of the additive, but the service manager doesn't recommend it, then what do they do with the product? Use it to block off an area that they don't want to use???? I don't know this service manager, but my opinion, based on what you have posted, is that he hasn't a clue as to the benefits of the products that the parts department sells, nor of the value of preventative maintenance. Just:my2cents:

PS..... what town do you live in???
 

BadAttitude

New member
Uh Junk...guess you haven't looked at frapper or whatever you guys call it. I listed my town there:pat: :D :D ...chill, I'm just :yankchain:

and your correct about everything you said...same dealer!! Larry has told me exactly what you said too. The PS they stock takes up quite a large area. Last time I was there, I'll bet there was 100 cases if not 500! Maybe the guys in the shop want to use it??? Maybe just for promotional looks?? Which is why I asked if anyone uses it and for what specific reasons other than old habits

btw...I didn't buy from them based on anyones recomendation, I was naive and decided to go local instead of long distance for the purchase. I had always bought my parts from them and they appeared to have gotten their act together since the first time I was tractor shoppimg. How wrong I was...
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
I use PowerService. Mostly in the winter because I don't use my tractor as much so the fuel sits more. I pretty much use it because so many people raved about here and at the other site so I just went along with all the hype. As far as I can tell it isn't hurting anything.
 

nixon

Boned
GOLD Site Supporter
I've always used Stanadyne . I use it at every fillup on My psd , Crd and tractor . Whether ,or not it has done any good , I can't say . But it certainly hasn't harmed anything :) I do think it has helped with the injectors on the PSD . It's an 03 with the C94 injectors that were known to fail . So far I have all the originals . I suspect that the extra "lubricity " of the Stanadyne has contributed to this .
 

BadAttitude

New member
Thanks PB

I actually thought summer would be more critical for fuel concerns, excluding gelling in the winter
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
Easy explanation as to how Power Service works......... all diesel fuel (and #2 home heating oil) contains paraffin wax in it. Think of the paraffin wax as being the size of a BB. When it gets cold..... really cold, like in the 20 degree range (Fahrenheit) the BB sized wax particles start to join together and they become the size of tennis balls. Since a BB will pass through the filter and the injector nozzle, but the tennis sized ball will not, your tractor will not run. Years ago, they got around the problem with the use of block heaters and fuel heaters. Once the engine was running, the warm/hot water from the engine was circulated around the outside of the fuel filter warming the fuel so the injectors would work properly. With the use of Power Service, the wax molecules can't join together, since the chemical that is in Power Service reacts with these wax molecules and causes a chemical change in there make up. There are also other chemicals in Power Service that act to clean the injector nozzle and lubricate the injector pump. Power Service also makes a product that has all these benefits plus it has a Cetane booster. I have never used it, but I can't see how it can hurt. I have no idea as to how the chemical make up of the new low sulfur fuels is going to be as for the paraffin wax content. Only time will tell if Power Service will continue to be needed.....
 

nixon

Boned
GOLD Site Supporter
BA Just repeating what I've been told ,so take it for what it's worth :)
Sulfer in fuel acts as a lubricant . So reducing it lessen the ability of the fuel to lubricate things like injectors ,and injector pumps . Whether or not it's an issue with the current LSD fuel is a question I can't answer . But if it is I suspect it will get worse with the new ULSD fuel .
BA , You might want to look at this site as well. www.fppf.com
I have used their performance formula . But it's not as easy to measure out as Stanadyne.
I will say thAT it did work at clearing up at white smoke at idle problem with our f450 .
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I use Power Service (white bottle) in the tractors, but only in the winter. For my truck fleet we use the same Power Service. There are a couple different grades/types of Power Service. The silver bottle does not contain anti-gel but has more cetane boost & cleaning properties; the white bottle is most commonly associated with anti-gel. There are other versions as well, but these are the two that I keep in my warehouse.
 

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BadAttitude

New member
The reason I ask about lubricity is the late model GM diesels I work on are designed for low sulfor fuels and I assumed the tractor manufactorers followed the same reasoning. Anyone know if this is true?

Maybe I should start using PS??

here's a little detail about my condition...

About a month ago, it started to have extended crank times before lighting off. My last NH did the same, but one difference is that while my last one also made me a little nausous(sp?) after mowing for a couple hrs, this one doesn't. It runs like a bear and no smoke either. But it still doesn't start like it used too. I have 200 hrs on it now and it has been trouble free other than the hydro leak I fixed...long story there:blahblah:
I even tried different throttle openings...same result. If it sits any longer than about 5 mins, it cranks for about 10 secs or so and then lights off. I put some clear tubing on the inlet to the pump and when the condition is present, no air bubbles. I'd like to also check the return side, but haven't figured out where to check it yet.
 

Jim_S

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Does Power Service have a shelf life? My supply is about 2 years old.

Jim
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
jim slagle said:
Does Power Service have a shelf life? My supply is about 2 years old.

Jim
Jim, I doubt if there is an issue but I went to check anyway. There is no "best by" or "use by" date on any of the bottles I just looked at, however you may want to check their website to see if there is anything related to your question. www.powerservice.com
 

Jim_S

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
Jim, I doubt if there is an issue but I went to check anyway. There is no "best by" or "use by" date on any of the bottles I just looked at, however you may want to check their website to see if there is anything related to your question. www.powerservice.com

Thanks, I just looked and here's their answer:

6. What is the shelf life of Power Service diesel additives?

Our products will last indefinitely in a sealed container.


They don't address opened containers. There's not much left in the container I'm using. I think I will just toss it.

Jim
 

BadAttitude

New member
Thanks for the great explanation Junk, but waxing shouldn't be an issue around here yet, correct?. Plus the tractor is alwasy garaged,. Never had waxing with the first tractor either and NEVER used any additives. I'm pretty sure bacteria in the fuel caused the starting problems with the TC21...noticed some black junk in the filter bowl just prior to the problems. I've never noticed anything in the fuel bowl on the new one and like I said, I"ve been very religious about clean fuel. I even drained some fuel from the bottom of the tank and not a bit of water or any junk.

Bob, do you use the PS year round in your trucks or just winter time? Based on what you say, I'm thinking the silver bottle might be something I should use. Any difference in lubricity content between the white and silver?
 

BadAttitude

New member
nixon said:
BA , You might want to look at this site as well. www.fppf.com
quote]

Great link and very informative, thanks!. I didn't know that water is going to be a REAL issue with the ULSD...

>>>>HIGH WATER CONTENT
  • 50% higher since low sulfur diesel introduced in 1993
  • Potential for another 100% increase in water by volume with the introduction of ultra low sulfur diesel fuel.
>>>>
 

BadAttitude

New member
OK...here's another question

If the highway fuel is going to ULSD, what happens to home heating or off road fuel? If it's all the same other than dye, as many say, will it also be ULSD?

I should have paid more attention to this issue than I did...it don't look good
 

MadReferee

New member
BadAttitude said:
OK...here's another question

If the highway fuel is going to ULSD, what happens to home heating or off road fuel? If it's all the same other than dye, as many say, will it also be ULSD?

I should have paid more attention to this issue than I did...it don't look good
Off-road is already ULSD for the most part. You will still find some LSD in certain areas of the country where there is a small "botique" refinery. The big refineries can no longer make LSD, only ULSD. I have been using off-road ULSD in both my Kubota and 1963 TD6 bulldozer now for several weeks with no noticable difference.

Also, regarding lubrication, ULSD and LDB both meet or exceed the current lubricity standard for diesel fuel that has been in effect for several years. This is accomplished in ULSD by the addition of certain additives to replace whatever lubricity was lost in removing the sulphur.

As for home heating oil being ULSD, a lot depends on where in the country you are located. Around here it is still LSD but I suspect that after the first of the year it will be ULSD as the HHO refineries and imports change over. Remember that HHO usually does not contain any anti-gel additives so beware when using it in your tractor.

All of the above information was taken from various informational web sites, either from the EPA or the various fuel producers. The other tractor site has had many discussions on this subject and I am not really going to repeat all the info I posted over there.
 

HGM

New member
Power Services is a good product, I have used it with good results.. Stanadyne is excellent as well, but not quite as readily available in my experience... Motorcraft also make a good one for sale at your local Ford dealer..

Like Mad, I have chimed in on this at the other site too... But I have definitely noticed a difference when running the additive(PS and Motorcraft).. The fuel economy alone more than payed for the additive... One bottle of the Motorcraft will treat 3 tanks(on the Excursion I was driving/40gal) and gave me 1.5mpg increase at 80mph on the highway.. The engine seemed to run smoother and quieter(but it was low mileage, so it may have been my immagination) and have better responce.. My buddy has a '95 PSD with a 7.3L and developed a missfire, the stanadyne additive helped to clean that injector and he is still running it today(1yr later) smoothly and with better fuel economy, he even claims 2.5mpg, but he drives slower.. The mpg is relative to the fuel quality, but the cetane booster does work as well as the lubricity additive.. Its safe reassurance to me with the new ULSD.. However, the Motorcraft(I suspect the others are the same) is not intended for '07 emission trucks... Apparently they have not been tested to burn clean enough for the new systems and may cause emission component issues(particulate filter in particular)..
 

BadAttitude

New member
HGM said:
My buddy has a '95 PSD with a 7.3L and developed a missfire, the stanadyne additive helped to clean that injector
Too bad it won't correct the Dmax injector problems. I'd rather dump a bottle in the tank and send it down the road than replace the injectors for what the General wants to pay...:blahblah:

No doubt just searching 'ULSD' over there pretty much answered all my questions. Mad was right...you could spend days reading what has been posted.

Thanks everyone and from now on PS is going to be on the menu:a1:
 

HGM

New member
BadAttitude said:
Too bad it won't correct the Dmax injector problems. I'd rather dump a bottle in the tank and send it down the road than replace the injectors for what the General wants to pay...:blahblah:

What kind of problems are you seeing with the injectors? Are they Piezo or Solonoids? We're looking forward to the comon rail next year, looks like it will be interesting..
 

BadAttitude

New member
The injectors are solenoid controled and the problem up til the early 05 ones were that the high pressure(about 2K) was too much for the injectors. They would leak by and cause all kinds of driveability problems. Worse case they would leak pass the rings and fill the crankcase to the point of the fuel leaking out the VC breathers. Surprised that none of those ever 'ran away'...
 

HGM

New member
BadAttitude said:
The injectors are solenoid controled and the problem up til the early 05 ones were that the high pressure(about 2K) was too much for the injectors. They would leak by and cause all kinds of driveability problems. Worse case they would leak pass the rings and fill the crankcase to the point of the fuel leaking out the VC breathers. Surprised that none of those ever 'ran away'...


Dont you mean 20k psi?

We had a few '03 6.0L's run away because of the injectors leaking early on, but they were usually caught before that because the crankcase filled up too(ran rough).. They got a grip on that pretty quickly..

We're going to piezo comon rail with about 26k psi last I heard.. Should be interesting..
 

Trakternut

Active member
Anybody ever tied Howes?? It's got antiwaxing agents in it.
Way back when Dodge first put Cummins in pickups, a friend of mine had one. Used Howes in every tank of fuel. Ran straight #2 all winter in temps well below zero. He does garage the truck at night, but it's not heated. Otherwise, it's outside all day as he does garage door installs and repairs. He's on his Xth Dodge/Cummins and loves them..........and Howes
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Never heard of Howes. Where is it available?

Does it also have lubricating properties so it will work with the new Ultra Low Sulfer diesel? The problem with the new diesel fuel requirements is that it does not lubricate as well as the old stuff.
 

LarryRB

Member
I've used Howes and still do since buying my first tractor trailer in early 74. Howes is the only one that has no alcohol in it, and also guarantees they will pay the tow bill if you ever gell up and shut down... Buy it at any good sized truck stop, such as TA...
 
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