Death wish

[bczoom]

I didn't know Walmart made cars. Or steel. Or did call centers. Or any of the thousands of other jobs that have been sent overseas. Walmart is hardly the driving factor; just one of the symptoms.

IMHO - The WalMart mentality/philosophy of pinching every penny is due to OUR GREED. We (the American people) want STUFF. For most people, the cheaper the better so we can get even more STUFF. The way companies sell their products is to manufacture as cheap as possible, which includes manufacturing overseas.

 

[thcri]

I didn't know Walmart made cars. Or steel. Or did call centers. Or any of the thousands of other jobs that have been sent overseas. Walmart is hardly the driving factor; just one of the symptoms.

No, Walmart doesn't make cars but I think Bob was using it as an example. I think the American people got greedy and wages soared at a higher pace than the rest of the world. Jobs are going over seas because other countries can make things cheaper and still sell to the US at a profit. Car industry is an example. Why is Ford, Chevy and Chrylser in trouble. Because the other countries can do it cheaper. And that even includes US companies outsorcing. That is why the majority of our cars and tractors and made elsewhere. The auto industry is serious trouble because now with China producing cars for export to the United States you will even see the existing Japanese and Korean cars start to drop in price to compete with China. If that happens Ford, Chevy and Chrysler and gone. Call centers, why would companies like Dell outsource their call centers to India. Well they can get highly technical people for and awful lot less than they can get from the US. Even the expenses of phone charges, freight whatever it isn't enough to offset the exhorbant wages. Companies like Walmart has caused other companies to find other ways with cheaper labor to stay in business.

murph

 

[HGM]

So...... Nobody see's the Unions in America causing our troubles????

The way I see it, we can blame free enterprise for whatever we want.. "Walmart is destroying America" seems to be a common belief, and though I dont think it was the best thing to happen here, it just supplies cheaper product choices for us.. If it wasnt Walmart, it would be Woolworths, Dollar General, Big Lotts, etc.. We live in a country that is extremely prosperous for the small bussiness. However, when you look at large bussiness with union influence, they start in a hole and progressively get deeper as time goes on, funding retirement for its employees.. When a factory worker in the US is payed $20-30 per hr to install one bolt because thats all the union agreed for him to do, the company must hire more employees to do each other task.. This sets a company up to be overstaffed with non productive workers.. (more power to the workers, but its not fair to the company).. At some point, the company will face a delima.. Will they move to another place(overseas) to reduce operating costs or close their doors...

As far as the Clinton VS Bush times with the economy.. I'm not a speciallist on the economy, but everything I have heard tells me that the economy is better and unemployment is lower than it was under Clinton.. To claim that was because if Clintons actions is absurd.. Bush entered his presidency with the most tramatic national emergency this country has ever faced.. For us to be in better shape after 9/11 than durring the Clinton administration is all Bush, 9/11 whiped the slate clean..

I dont know how to fix this mess, but its not all about Walmart.

 

[Melensdad]

I didn't know Walmart made cars. Or steel. Or did call centers. Or any of the thousands of other jobs that have been sent overseas. Walmart is hardly the driving factor; just one of the symptoms.

Actually in the trade, it is not just Wal Mart, it is referred to as the Wal Mart-ification of distribution and production.

We can choose to blame companies, or we can choose to blame consumers. Both are chasing the same goal. Lower prices.

The way it works is that consumers shop for lower prices creating competition among the retailers to cut costs. Retailers like Wal Mark, Sears, Kohls, JCPenny, AutoZone, Home Depot, etc have enough retail buying power to demand lower prices from some/most of their suppliers. Many retailers actually tell their suppliers to move the production to lower cost nations. So employers end up in a struggle, if they want to sell their goods to these large retailers they have to cut their prices to a point where either they lose money to keep domestic jobs, or they move production overseas and keep their companies alive, but without much/any domestic assembly jobs.

Then it gets taken a step further with call centers because the support staff is the next area where costs can be reduced. First, companies like Dell, which had long ago moved production offshore then moved support call centers offshore to futher cut their costs because they had to compete with the Pakard-Bell and e-Machines that were undercutting their prices, then other companies like Circuit City followed because they had to compete. Furniture companies have moved most of their production offshore to stay in business because they simply cannot make stuff as inexpensively as the consumers demand it.

It is oversimplification to say it is Wal-Mart's fault, but I thought my example would have been understood.

It is also oversimplification to blame unions, labor laws or our government regulations, but all contribute to the issue.

It simply boils down to the fact that most consumers want the lowest price they can get away with paying. Consumer pressure is forcing the entire process. That process is leading to greater efficiencies in production, fewer choices, lower prices, lower quality, less and less domestic production and lower profit margins. But it certainly is not corporate greed, it is often the difference between keeping SOME jobs and keeping ZERO jobs.

 

[Spiffy1]

It simply boils down to the fact that most consumers want the lowest price they can get away with paying. Consumer pressure is forcing the entire process. That process is leading to greater efficiencies in production, fewer choices, lower prices, lower quality, less and less domestic production and lower profit margins. But it certainly is not corporate greed, it is often the difference between keeping SOME jobs and keeping ZERO jobs.

Well put Bob! The question is [not directed to anyone, and I only wish I had the answer] to solve the problem where do you start?

Educate consumers? I really wish, but Good Luck!
Boycott "Walmarts"? Again Good Luck (though I personally, try to patronize local merchants and always shop for the highest quality domestic products)
Blame Unions? The damage has spread well outside unions, to make that a solution.
Reform Labor Laws? Not a bad plan, but again the damage is already done.
Nasty import tarriffs? I'd love it, but we can't go pissing off the WTO now can we; and even if not for that don't forget our dumb polititions woundn't want to allienate equally dumb consumers who have to have their "Walmart" crap.

Vicious Circle!

 

[OkeeDon]

Well, you've all nicely used only one of my points, and a minor one at that, to sidetrack the discussion, and avoid the real issue I raised. I'll say it again:

I don't actually know what'd happened to all the money from tax cuts. It hasn't been invested in new facilities or jobs here, because all of the jobs are going overseas. It's not trickling down, because Fox News, of all people, reported the other day that real incomes in the middle class are down. It's not going into TBills, otherwise we wouldn't need so much foreign investment in our government borrowing.

 

[bczoom]

Well, you've all nicely used only one of my points, and a minor one at that, to sidetrack the discussion, and avoid the real issue I raised. I'll say it again:

I don't actually know what'd happened to all the money from tax cuts. It hasn't been invested in new facilities or jobs here, because all of the jobs are going overseas. It's not trickling down, because Fox News, of all people, reported the other day that real incomes in the middle class are down. It's not going into TBills, otherwise we wouldn't need so much foreign investment in our government borrowing.

Hey Don, that's cheating.
You avoided or didn't address the real issue I raised, but I asked first :StickOutT :StickOutT :StickOutT :StickOutT :StickOutT

OK... Now please tell me what should we tell the UAE and any of our other allies? The UAE has been a loyal ally in the war on terror. They've supported our military more than any other in the region. They have more of our military ships in their ports than any other country in the world. What message does that send them as well as any of our other allies about what you get when you cooperate with the USA. The cold shoulder?

 

[HGM]

Well, you've all nicely used only one of my points, and a minor one at that, to sidetrack the discussion, and avoid the real issue I raised. I'll say it again:

I don't actually know what'd happened to all the money from tax cuts. It hasn't been invested in new facilities or jobs here, because all of the jobs are going overseas. It's not trickling down, because Fox News, of all people, reported the other day that real incomes in the middle class are down. It's not going into TBills, otherwise we wouldn't need so much foreign investment in our government borrowing.

Doesnt the cost of employing higher payed union employees and retirees contribute to the need for cheaper labor options overseas? Walmart and the like, allong with moving plants out of this country are the reaction, not the cause.. The cause must be addressed before we remedy the result..

I dont believe the unions are the sole issue.. Just that it is a major factor leading to our troubles.. Untill recently I have been very neutral on unions because they are good for the employee(as long as the company remains in bussiness), but with more of our large founding companies in financial trouble because of them(mostly) I'm leaning more to the anti union side..

How do we fix it? Hell if I know....... Another issue I see is financing options allowing the average Joe to afford much more than he can afford.. This is driving the cost of everything higher, homes in particular, while most of our wages remain the same.. If we dont manage our lives properly, we'll implode, it could get much worse in the future...

 

[JimR]

The unions are a big issue in what is happening in America. The local city fire department is fighting right now for a two day work week. Imagine going to work for 2 days and getting paid for 48 hours. Then they get 5 days off. What a great deal this would be. If I was a fireman I would be able to be there for two days and get a weeks pay. Plus I could have another fulltime job for the government and pull two pensions when I retire. What's wrong with this picture? How good can a fireman be if he is on duty for 48 hours straight. Mind you, the city will be paying him to sleep for 16 of these 48 hours. Even with that, how good can a fireman be after being up for 12 hours? Efficient? I don't think so. This country is in a sad state of affairs and it is not going to get any better anytime soon.

 

[Junkman]

This country has been exporting our jobs since the 1960's when we started to import products from Japan..... then it became Taiwan's turn to send cheap good to our shores..... then India..... then ????? As long as a product can be made in another part of the world for less than it can be made here, it will be imported. The problem is that the workers want higher wages and cheaper goods. You can't have it both ways. We used to have the worlds largest manufacturing facilities bar none. Today, we have very little manufacturing jobs left. If there ever was a situation like we had in December 1941 when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and we went to war, there would be no place to make the items that we would need to support the war effort. So much of our manufacturing facilities have been dismantled that we don't even have the people with the expertise necessary to operate the machines of manufacturing. Our politicians have sold our country for there personal gain. We are the only country in the world where the politicians are allowed to donations from foreign companies and citizens. Foreigners own our farm land and collect government subsidies for not producing on the land. Many of the farms that do produce also receive assistance from the government and that money goes to the foreign owners also. Is this right?

 

[Spiffy1]

If there ever was a situation like we had in December 1941 when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and we went to war, there would be no place to make the items that we would need to support the war effort. So much of our manufacturing facilities have been dismantled that we don't even have the people with the expertise necessary to operate the machines of manufacturing.

I was begining to wonder if I was the only one afraid of that! Of course, when you consider the the trade deficit, why are we worried about losing the country to a war (that is in the conventional sense as opposed to economic)?!

 

[Junkman]

We have already given up manufacturing and any service jobs that can be done by telephone are already being sent to India and other countries. We import a lot of our land grown food from South America. If it were not for the Mad Cow disease, we would be importing more of our beef than we already are. I don't know what the situation is on the rest of the meat products, but I am inclined to believe that there is a large percentage of it that is imported also. Our automobile industry is just an assembly line of parts that are imported from other countries and bolted together here. Unlike Japan and Germany, which manufacture almost 100% of the parts for the cars that they export. Do we export many cars any more???? Possibly the military is buying some for use in Iraq, so I guess that qualifies for an export. Almost all of our steel mills have just about closed or produce limited quantities of steel, and that is primarily for domestic projects that require the product to be made here because of technical difficulties in importing beams to build a bridge or sky scraper. Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time that we built a sky scraper.... Not much need for tall buildings, when they get in the way of airplanes. We still mine coal in the US, but that is only because we can no longer get cheap oil. We send the oil from Alaska to Japan, and import oil from Saudi Arabia and South America. Isn't Alaska closer to us than both of those other places???? Our one big export is tobacco products to China. The Chinese know that tobacco kills, so they want lots of smokers. That way, they won't have to worry about what to do with the people that get to old to work. They will just pass on as a result of smoking. Interesting that we are pushing for cessation of smoking in this country, but other countries are not following our lead. Just think about all those smokers in the US that die prematurely. They never get to collect Social Security, and there health costs are not that much. They usually die before the costs can add up like keeping a healthy person alive and well into their 80's & 90's.

 

[California]

Wow. I glance back in here and the mood has turned gloomy.

Here's one new thought I haven't seen discussed:

What we are seeing overall, resulting from unstoppable globalization, is best described as 'the race to the bottom'.

There is a trend to source each product or service from the lowest cost provider, usually overseas. This leaves the traditional American supplier with two bad choices - match the new competitor's price, or go out of business.

Some industries can lobby for special-interest protectionism to some degree, but this won't stop the overall trend.

Here's my contribution to the topic: I don't see any alternative to raising the standard of living worldwide, since workers here are inevitably going to reach a balance in income level with workers everywhere.

Utopianism, maybe, but I don't see an alternative.

 

[HGM]

The Chinese know that tobacco kills, so they want lots of smokers. That way, they won't have to worry about what to do with the people that get to old to work. They will just pass on as a result of smoking. Interesting that we are pushing for cessation of smoking in this country, but other countries are not following our lead. Just think about all those smokers in the US that die prematurely. They never get to collect Social Security, and there health costs are not that much. They usually die before the costs can add up like keeping a healthy person alive and well into their 80's & 90's.

Very interesting point, I totally agree... I've probably said it here before, but I believe thats another key to our troubles... The fact that people are living much longer than ever before, lack of disease, war, and just death in general.. Everyone seems to want to live forever or prolong everyones life, but noone seems to be thinkng about sustaining those lives.. It ends up effecting everyone.. We surely dont want to just kill off our families, but nature had a way of controling life on this planet, ofcourse that wasnt good enough, so we had to screw with it.....

 

[Melensdad]

The Chinese know that tobacco kills, so they want lots of smokers. That way, they won't have to worry about what to do with the people that get to old to work. They will just pass on as a result of smoking. Interesting that we are pushing for cessation of smoking in this country, but other countries are not following our lead. Just think about all those smokers in the US that die prematurely. They never get to collect Social Security, and there health costs are not that much. They usually die before the costs can add up like keeping a healthy person alive and well into their 80's & 90's.

What I find interesting is that Japan's smoking rate is roughly 50% of the adult population, while the US smoking rate is roughly 26% of the adult population. I find that interesting because Japan has a lung cancer rate that is 50% LOWER than the lung cancer rate in the US. Japan has 100% more smoker per capita but far lower cancer rates. I don't know about the Chinese cancer rates, but it is very possible that the corelation of smoking to cancer has not been properly explored and conclusions may be inaccurate.