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Are Electric cars truly our future mode of transportation?

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Notes: Review of hybrid cars from a Canadian source. Electric costs are a good bit lower in my neck of the woods still he raises some interesting points.

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IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!
In case you were thinking of buying a hybrid or an electric car:
Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.
Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.
At a neighborhood BBQ, I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.
If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.
This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!
This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead-end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.
If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.
Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
"Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran
on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.
I pay approximately (it varies with the amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline-powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, which costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
By Larry Kelse
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Notes: Review of hybrid cars from a Canadian source. Electric costs are a good bit lower in my neck of the woods still he raises some interesting points.

------------------

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!
In case you were thinking of buying a hybrid or an electric car:
Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.
Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.
At a neighborhood BBQ, I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.
If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.
This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!
This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead-end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.
If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.
Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.
"Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran
on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.
I pay approximately (it varies with the amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline-powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, which costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
By Larry Kelse
The only way for any of the electric vehicles to pan out is if the come with a battery that has a 200k mile charge or change the term electric vehicle to rolling blackout.
 

Lyndon

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Electric vehicles will eventually push Gasoline, Diesel, LP/LNG, and even Hydrogen and alternative fuels right out of existence. It's not a matter of 'IF', it's a matter of 'When'. Between the simplicity, efficiency, and environmental it's all in the Math and Physics, not in someone's opinion, including mine.
Diesel Electric Locomotives made Steam obsolete. They couldn't scrap them out fast enough. And we never went back. The same is in store for internal combustion engines, and eventually Gas Turbines. The overall efficiency of a reciprocating engines never reached 40%, some large jet engines and steam turbines exceed this by a small margin. Electric motors reached efficiencies of 98%>99% almost 100 years ago.
The batteries have always been the "Achilles Heel" of electric vehicles. Once they broke the 300 mile range it was all over. As scientists and Industry keep making improvements it's just a matter of time. We won't get a "say" in it.
All the biggest car manufacturers are poised to unleash a torrent of new electrics that will give Tesla serious competition. Especially now that VW moved back into the number one position. BMW, Mercedes, and the American makes, GM, Ford, Chrysler,.... the Japanese and the Chinese too.
You may live to see the day that we have to take our antique, collector cars down to some enclosed stadium on a trailer just to start them up!(so my associate Rick, who restores Mussel- Cars, says) I haven't laid any bets on that one yet.
Like I said: "It's all in the Math", If one looks at the rate at which the Physicists and Chemists are making advances in energy storage, you can actually pinpoint where in the future cars will run for a whole month, and eventually a whole year on a charge. It's not that far out. Sort of like Moore's Law on Information storage.

Don't sell all your Oil Stocks just yet. They will still want that stuff for everything else, grease, printing ink, plastics,.... until it is all used up. Don't forget, your cell phone is 92% out of the 'petro-chemical' stream, as is your computer.

Back to work!
 
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300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
For 100% conversion we will have to radically enlarge the capacity of the grid. I mean radically. I am not convinced it can all be done with wind and solar either. Nuclear energy should be looked into I think, as this technology has advanced a lot since we built any here in our nation.

For now, I believe the biggest market will be for the urban commuter. Definitely makes tremendous sense for a round trip of 100 miles or less.
The road tax issue will be a tax you will pay when you register your car each year. It will come as a shock to those who already have been drinking the milk with out buying the car.. Still the EV will win as the cheapest form of transportation..
Rural area's adoption will take more time. Distances are great, and up North temps will limit range. I suspect the technology will have to improve before rural area's adopt it.
Trucking, Agriculture, rail transportation are the bigger target if we are looking at emissions. There again I believe many technical advances will have to over come for electricity will power these industries currently using heavy diesel power. Not to mention a 3X increase in electrical production above the increase we would have to do for just cars... We must be careful here with these as the price of what we buy will be effected negatively if wrong choices are made.
This will be a very interesting thing to see play out longer term. I just remember how fast cordless power tools took over the market, just because of a cord!!
 
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m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Electric vehicles will eventually push Gasoline, Diesel, LP/LNG, and even Hydrogen and alternative fuels right out of existence. It's not a matter of 'IF', it's a matter of 'When'. Between the simplicity, efficiency, and environmental it's all in the Math and Physics, not in someone's opinion, including mine.
Diesel Electric Locomotives made Steam obsolete. They couldn't scrap them out fast enough. And we never went back. The same is in store for internal combustion engines, and eventually Gas Turbines. The overall efficiency of a reciprocating engines never reached 40%, some large jet engines and steam turbines exceed this by a small margin. Electric motors reached efficiencies of 98%>99% almost 100 years ago.
The batteries have always been the "Achilles Heel" of electric vehicles. Once they broke the 300 mile range it was all over. As scientists and Industry keep making improvements it's just a matter of time. We won't get a "say" in it.
All the biggest car manufacturers are poised to unleash a torrent of new electrics that will give Tesla serious competition. Especially now that VW moved back into the number one position. BMW, Mercedes, and the American makes, GM, Ford, Chrysler,.... the Japanese and the Chinese too.
You may live to see the day that we have to take our antique, collector cars down to some enclosed stadium on a trailer just to start them up!(so my associate Rick, who restores Mussel- Cars, says) I haven't laid any bets on that one yet.
Like I said: "It's all in the Math", If one looks at the rate at which the Physicists and Chemists are making advances in energy storage, you can actually pinpoint where in the future cars will run for a whole month, and eventually a whole year on a charge. It's not that far out. Sort of like Moore's Law on Information storage.

Don't sell all your Oil Stocks just yet. They will still want that stuff for everything else, grease, printing ink, plastics,.... until it is all used up. Don't forget, your cell phone is 92% out of the 'petro-chemical' stream, as is your computer.

Back to work!
You are just trading one mechanical loss for another unless the power is generated by nuclear fuel. The example of the diesel over electric in trains is a hybrid and the train is still powered by the diesel engine. The electric motor is the transmission with 100% torque at 1 rpm. Thats why the combination worked for trains and ships.
 
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Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Battery technology needs to improve. I know there are new breakthroughs in battery technology, and that is critical. We need re-charge times that are measured in minutes, not hours.

City travel by electric car is reasonable today. Commuting and short distances.

Rural travel by electric car is a huge problem. Lack of infrastructure (charging stations). Long distances. Just not currently practical with the current batteries.
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Battery technology needs to improve. I know there are new breakthroughs in battery technology, and that is critical. We need re-charge times that are measured in minutes, not hours.

City travel by electric car is reasonable today. Commuting and short distances.

Rural travel by electric car is a huge problem. Lack of infrastructure (charging stations). Long distances. Just not currently practical with the current batteries.
there is suppose to be a battery coming out that would send a Tesla across the US a couple times on a single charge. It would make electric vehicles and solar homes a bit more of a reality
 
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waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
However long a battery lasts, the machine still.visits energy. It has to be replaced. I am thinking almost everyone every home and every residential power line will need to be enlarged.
Who's got that kind of money?
 

mla2ofus

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Let's just get 'em on the road, then worry about charging "infrastructure". OOOOO, lately that's become a nasty word!!
 
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