Shopping for a Cat: What is best?

Hello all! I see this as the start of a long relationship with this forum.

I am all about winter, and grew up skiing: racing, now touring and ski trips. My dream above all dreams was to own a snowcat, and even started to look into how this was possible, before I knew others were doing this. I then found this forum.

I have been a lurker for a few years, and basically have read all info I can find online about cats, watched as much videos as possible, and read many posts and profiles.

Where we are at, is we are looking to purchase a cat in the next few years to use in the BC backcountry. I would like to either have this on a winter property directly adjacent to logging roads, or tow to an access area. We would then drive up to tour, hoarse around, or winter camp. I have read about all sorts of cats, and in theory considered all of them in my mind: Snow-Trac, Imp / Spyrte, Tucker, Pistenbully. I have read many threads, but never really seen what people would say is “the best”.

My question is, what’s best for steep terrain / deep powder? I had looked at getting tracks for my SUV, but crossed this off the list when they seemed inadequate for deep mountain snow. Then I see a lot of people use a Thiokol-type machine, but they are older, and though simpler, seem to break down a lot. That, the slow speed, and general discomfort, and old mechanics don’t sound good. Then I see a lot of people using Tuckers, but I don’t see a lot of people using these in steep and deep terrain. They do seem simpler to work on.

This would be a long term investment, so I would actually seriously look at getting a Pistenbully and maintaining the hydraulics. Long story short, is a Pistenbully / Bombardier Br, Prinoth tracked cat the ultimate for this application? Or would many of the above do. Again, I would like to get a cat that can handle steep and deep terrain, not break down, get stuck the least, and be somewhat modern / efficient / comfortable. As such, I am starting the search for a Pistenbully Scout, but don’t see many of these for sale.

Peoples’ input is appreciated. Thank-you!

Hercules

If your budget is essentially the sky is the limit then by all means the Pisten Bully and Prinoth are for you. Track width might be an issue if you are trailering it. The ski resort groomers are very wide tracked and they are made for deep and steep.

How wide are your trails?

Oh and welcome aboard.

Thanks! So glad I found this forum!

I wouldn’t quite say sky is the limit, but would realistically consider spending up to ~50k CAD to get the right used cat. I think that would put me in the range of a good used PB Scout / 100? I would say some maneuverability is important, so maybe not super wide tracks like one would see on a full time resort groomer.

I know the right cat doesn’t come along every day, or every year for that matter, so starting the research now so can pull the trigger when the time is right.

If you can find an old DMC Thiokol or LMC center cab that's got a cab on it, they climb like a mad man, and with ski resort (wide say 12' ) tracks they float great.

A few places off the top of my head.



Type snowcat in the search field. 8 on there now including a Prinoth.
The Skidozer 301 was owned at one time by a forum member.

Thanks for sharing! I have seen the first two, but didn’t know KSI had so many cats!

I must admit, I really like the look of the PB Scout. They seem modern, ideal of carrying people, nimble and robust. Does anyone know what years they were made, how often they come up for sale, or a price range? I would like to find one if I can.

Most, if not all snow cats can be purchased with the tracks the end user needs. That is PB 100's or Scouts will come with a variety of track styles which may, or may not, fit your needs. Nice to have you here with us Rockefeller!

Just thought I’d submit a recent LMC demonstration in fresh snow and low angle slope. Not only does it struggle but also digs trenches, sort of like my golfing.
The Tucker moto is No road too steep, no snow too deep. In short, the Tuckers are the king of the hill.

Sno-Surfer said:

Just thought I’d submit a recent LMC demonstration in fresh snow and low angle slope. Not only does it struggle but also digs trenches, sort of like my golfing.
The Tucker moto is No road too steep, no snow too deep. In short, the Tuckers are the king of the hill.

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How many tuckers do you have for sell

jo5 said:

How many tuckers do you have for sell

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That's the problem, they are hard to find. I only have one and it's not for sale.

Sno-Surfer said:

That's the problem, they are hard to find. I only have one and it's not for sale.

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Dam guess he’ll have to buy a snowcat

No matter what cat you get: No learning curve too steep, no pockets too deep. Newer, easier to have repaired, find parts... Older cheaper, adventure in support.

I would get something with a blade and turbo charged. I have been in places that were impassable without a blade and also at elevations that my naturally aspirated engine was asking for oxygen. So whatever you get, consider a blade and something turbo charged if you are getting up there in elevation. If you are going to trailer I would also try to get something around 8 ft wide so you don't have transport issues. Also, look at where you are going to use the machine, my local snow machine club is trying to get a width restriction on the groomed trails. Just some things to consider.

Sno-Surfer, that must be an LMC trait. Mine digs deep trenchs then stops moving. Luckily the transmission has a retreat mode and it got out.

PJL, it was interesting to me to see the side by side comparison between the LMC and the Tucker 500 series. The Tucker’s stayed on top of the snow and leaves a real nice smooth xc ski quality track behind them. The snow doesn’t get chewed up at all. But the LMC, even on flat ground leaves more of a tilled garden effect behind it and you wouldn’t want to use the track to ski in. With the LMC, if you’re doing any turning one track is already spinning and digging and if the snow is spring slush, it gets even harder to go up the hills. The LMC seems like a nice cat though but doesn’t come close to climbing like a Tucker 500 series.
I wish I had a blade on it but I don’t. But so far I’ve been able to go about anywhere. If it gets to be too much of a side hill I just turn and go straight up the hill. But sno drifter has the best set up on his with both a blade and packer/groomer/track setter. A blade makes a lot of friends in the search and rescue groups and his packer/groomer makes a lot of friends with the xc skiers, both groups we want to get along with.

Auction sites can be a good source of used snowcats, the key word being "can". Sometimes machines go cheap, but other times not so much.

With the current Covid situation and existing restrictions on cross-border travel that may change the dynamics somewhat. Here are some ex-groomer Pisten Bullys up for auction in Canada next week:


I chat on an irregular basis with one of Tucker's sales representatives and the conversation can sometimes drift. I do not want to misrepresent what was said, and the specifics are somewhat vague, but I recall him saying he was making sales calls with contract proposals to some utility companies in the western US. They had fairly recently purchased Pisten Bully Scouts and were disappointed in the Scout's performance for their usage.

I wouldn't necessarily eliminate the Scout from consideration, but I do think you should investigate its capabilities and limitations further.

Scout is in the utility cat category. Easy to trailer, narrow tracks.

PJL said:

Scout is in the utility cat category. Easy to trailer, narrow tracks.

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Might get a good buy when they decide to sell them

Hey guys, thanks so much for the advice! This is all really valuable. Also, thank you for passing on the advice about Ritchie Brothers Auctioneers. I hadn’t thought to look; They are definitely a Canadian company that sells locally.

I didn’t know the Scout had problems as described. I actually would love to get a larger Pistenbully, but they are are of course more expensive, I don’t think you can be trailer to on the roads with tracks on, and I’ve only seen them with cabins where people you were transporting are separate. That said, they look like absolute beasts. I wonder if they will be tomorrow’s IMPs or Sprytes. We are also in the real estate market, so I suppose if I end up buying a place where I don’t have to trailer, i.e. at the base of a mountain, I could just get a larger cat. That would be so badass..

I have watched many videos about all the snow cat meet ups in the United States. Does anyone know of any meet ups in Canada, or are there any especially great places that people know of in BC to snow cat?

Thanks so much to everyone for a lively discussion. If and when the COVID border issues are over I would definitely look forward to checking out one of the US meetups.

Yes they are a Canadian company but they are world wide.

These Rag Doll critters are cool cats. I have one. They run about a grand brand-new.
It takes virtually no maintenance to keep them purring.

Sorry guys but this thread keeps popping up and teasing the mischievous bone in my @ss. Couldn't help myself

H.R.
Welcome aboard.
Snowcats are a disease....once you get bitten....you are forever part of the Cat croud.

I am doing a custom cat on a Thiokol 2100 chassis.
Sounds like you want a far newer machine....
One word...Any hydraulic driven cats are sweet...but maintenance can be expensive.....
The older planetary drive cats are fine for a private machine.

Age means nothing...condition means everything.
Generally machines break down because of maintenance issue...as in lack of.
A well refurbished machine can provide a lot of trouble free hours of service.

Buying a used machine and "Just getting it going" will many times be the ones broke down.
Once the hands have been laid upon old cats....they can and should run as well as a new one....

Good luck in your search.....
Have fun

HRockefeller said:

Hey guys, thanks so much for the advice! This is all really valuable. Also, thank you for passing on the advice about Ritchie Brothers Auctioneers. I hadn’t thought to look; They are definitely a Canadian company that sells locally.

I didn’t know the Scout had problems as described. I actually would love to get a larger Pistenbully, but they are are of course more expensive, I don’t think you can be trailer to on the roads with tracks on, and I’ve only seen them with cabins where people you were transporting are separate. That said, they look like absolute beasts. I wonder if they will be tomorrow’s IMPs or Sprytes. We are also in the real estate market, so I suppose if I end up buying a place where I don’t have to trailer, i.e. at the base of a mountain, I could just get a larger cat. That would be so badass..

I have watched many videos about all the snow cat meet ups in the United States. Does anyone know of any meet ups in Canada, or are there any especially great places that people know of in BC to snow cat?

Thanks so much to everyone for a lively discussion. If and when the COVID border issues are over I would definitely look forward to checking out one of the US meetups.

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H.R. - Are the areas you will travel in used by other machines as well, or will you be packing & maintaining your travel routes by yourself? When you get storms, how much snow do you get in a single storm, or say over the course of a good snow week? Regarding PB Scouts, I kind of watch those and have found in the last couple of years most units with less than 1000 or 1200 hours have sold for $55k to 85K USD. The Deere turbo diesel has a pretty good reputation. Scouts are built for easy trailering (< 102" width with a deck-over trailer) so there isn't a "wide track" version unless you get custom tracks, as far as I know.

Hi HR,
I have a PB170DR Groomer that is in very good condition and would work quite well for you. See pics. It is too wide for my trails so, I want to sell it to someone like yourself who needs it and will appreciate it for what it can do. I am located in Washington State so I'm relatively close to you. I also know of a transport company that works with all the ski resorts in the Northwest who could assist you with transporting the machine. Give me a call.
MountainMike
1-253-241-8019

FrancSevin: I love the “cat”, but am not sure that could get me out of a snowy bind!

Hi Red130: I’m actually not sure where we’ll use it as I’m fairly new to this. My dream is to fire up the cat and take the fam up to a bowl or something to do some touring, but I am open to suggestions / ideas. I don’t think one can rely on groomed trails / others, so would want to assume the cat could handle deep fresh snow. That’s why I was thinking a relatively modern PB (or similar) would work.

Snowy Rivers: I’m sure you’re right about the age of the cat vs being well cared for. I was just assuming older cats might be a bit less comfortable / break down more. Maybe that wouldn’t be true about one that was fixed up well.

MountainMike: Thank you for the suggestion, I will drop you a PM. I like the vintage look!

HRockefeller said:

FrancSevin: I love the “cat”, but am not sure that could get me out of a snowy bind!

Hi Red130: I’m actually not sure where we’ll use it as I’m fairly new to this. My dream is to fire up the cat and take the fam up to a bowl or something to do some touring, but I am open to suggestions / ideas. I don’t think one can rely on groomed trails / others, so would want to assume the cat could handle deep fresh snow. That’s why I was thinking a relatively modern PB (or similar) would work.

Snowy Rivers: I’m sure you’re right about the age of the cat vs being well cared for. I was just assuming older cats might be a bit less comfortable / break down more. Maybe that wouldn’t be true about one that was fixed up well.

MountainMike: Thank you for the suggestion, I will drop you a PM. I like the vintage look!

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Don’t discount a 1500 there are responsible priced and proven a blade is nice but adds weight to the front end
make up your own mind it’s your money and you have to live with it

I've never owned, let alone operated, a hydrostatically driven/steered snowcat so take this with a grain of salt...

Those new(er) Pisten Bully / Prinoth / Bombardier machines sure look nice and I'd think they are pretty capable. However, my suspicion is a lot of the parts have to be sourced from the manufacturer, and are very likely costly enough to water your eyes. The older machines from the sixties - eighties are much simpler, and the majority of the parts are pretty commonly available.

The newer machines are subject to emissions laws and at least some will have electronic engine controls. That can also mean specialized (and expensive) diagnostic equipment to sort out problems and likely specialized training to use the equipment. What happens in say five or ten years when a circuit board goes bad and the manufacturer no longer stocks parts for "machines that old"?

My understanding is it's very important to have the hydrostatic fluid warm before using the machine. Assuming you don't have a heated area to keep it in, they may require electrically powered heater(s) that you plug in to keep the fluid warm when you want to use it.

My opinion only, but these are some issues you should give consideration to in the decision making process....

Turbo Diesel engines and hydrostatic drives are fine but heavy compared to mechanical drives systems, and Gasoline engines.
Hydrostatic drives are less efficient at getting engine horse power to the ground, and there for require a larger engine to do the same task.
Todays smaller light weight Diesel engines and hydrostatic pumps are much better than what was available 30 years ago. Emissions systems on today's Diesel engines (those made post 2006) make many if not all, problematic in the longer term... Not to mention the electronics engine/machine manufactures are installing these days. Complication is only your friend when it is working properly...
Weight is the enemy of Snow Cats. The only way to deal with it is to widen the tracks, or lengthen the track line. Both have limits and trade off's.
Easy trailering with out the need to de track the machine is were most draw the line. Most of the older mechanical drive machines are trailer friendly.
Just some rambling observations that have caught my eye over the years. Your mileage may differ.....

Regards, Kirk

HRockefeller said:

FrancSevin: I love the “cat”, but am not sure that could get me out of a snowy bind!

Hi Red130: I’m actually not sure where we’ll use it as I’m fairly new to this. My dream is to fire up the cat and take the fam up to a bowl or something to do some touring, but I am open to suggestions / ideas. I don’t think one can rely on groomed trails / others, so would want to assume the cat could handle deep fresh snow. That’s why I was thinking a relatively modern PB (or similar) would work.

Snowy Rivers: I’m sure you’re right about the age of the cat vs being well cared for. I was just assuming older cats might be a bit less comfortable / break down more. Maybe that wouldn’t be true about one that was fixed up well.

MountainMike: Thank you for the suggestion, I will drop you a PM. I like the vintage look!

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Floating on top of powder in the backcountry is everyone's dream. Sometimes the dream is different than the reality. Most people who need to access terrain continually like cat skiing operations pack their travel routes early in the season and then continue to use them frequently enough that they can still find them throughout the season. In open windy areas installing trail markers is necessary. If snow is dense in your area maybe your situation will be different. As mentioned above a front blade adds weight but it is almost essential if you want to create or maintain routes in areas with significant slopes.

Whatever cat you get become very familiar with it. Carry tools. Know how to fix minor issues before they become major. You can't call AAA for cats broken down in the middle of no where.

I have taken apart a carb multiple times on the same trip, fixed a leaky trans cooler line, repaired a broken wire to the starter on someone elses cat. All while well into a trip.