Pro-Gun Attorney sues city of Evansville, IN

[Melensdad]

A pro-gun attorney is going around the state looking for cities in violation of Indiana's new pro-gun laws that forbid cities from restricting the rights of lawful gun owners who have a License to Carry a Handgun.

The first city on the list to get sued: Evansville, Indiana

On the list, as soon as plaintiffs can be found: Hammond, East Chicago and South Bend

Today, the Law Offices of Guy A. Relford filed a lawsuit against the City of Evansville and the Evansville Department of Parks and Recreation for violating Ind. Code 35-47-11.1-2, which generally prohibits the regulation of "firearms" and/or the "carrying . . . of firearms" by a unit of local governement. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Benjamin A. Magenheimer, who was forcibly removed from the Mesker Park Zoo & Botanical Garden in Evansville simply for carrying a firearm, despite the fact that he possesses a valid License to Carry Handgun.

To view the Press Release issued by my office, please visit Press Releases.

September 16, 2011.

For Immediate Release.

Today, the Law Offices of Guy A. Relford announced the filing of a lawsuit on behalf of Benjamin A. Magenheimer against the City of Evansville, Indiana, and the Evansville Department of Parks & Recreation. The lawsuit is based on the defendants' violation of Ind. Code 35-47-11.1-2, which generally prohibits the regulation of "firearms" and/or the "carrying . . . of firearms" by a unit of local government.

On September 10, 2011, Mr. Magenheimer, his wife and four-month old child were enjoying an afternoon in the petting zoo ot the Mesker Park Zoo & Botanical Garden, owned and operated by the Evansville Department of Parks & Recreation. Mr. Magenheimer was lawfully carrying a handgun at the time, with his Indiana License to Carry Handgun in his possession. After a zoo employee apparently called police, Mr. Magenheimer was approached by four members of the Evansville Police Department, who first ordered him to conceal his firearm (which he had no legal obligation to do), then ordered him to leave the zoo property. When Mr. Magenheimer attempted to explain to the officers that their actions were illegal, the officers forcibly removed him from the property.

The actions of the EPD and zoo personnel clearly violate Indiana law, by enforcing an illegal policy regulating "firearms" and/or the "carrying . . . of firearms" by a unit of local government. As such, both the City and the DP&R are liable to Mr. Magenheimer for damages, attorney's fees, declaratory relief and injunctive relief.

The suit was filed with the Clerk of the Circuit and Superior Courts of Vanderburgh County in Evansville, Indiana.

For more information or for a copy of the Class Action Complaint, please contact the Law Offices of Guy A. Relford:

Law Offices of Guy A. Relford
4181 First Flight Circle
Zionsville, IN 46077
(317) 450-8252
grelford@global-lit.com

[joec]

I find this pretty interesting, especially Evansville, IN. It is where the NCOWS organization holds it Congress and shooting events the last few years. I would of thought it might be less gun control there than some other places I've been through. Oh well live and learn I guess.

[fogtender]

Cool, a Lawyer after my own heart!

[Dargo]

Mesker Zoo is less than a mile from my home. I own a rent house that is only about 1/4 a mile from there. A girl in my high school homeroom is the great grand daughter of the steel magnate who donated the property for the zoo and recreational grounds to the city. He was a renoun conservative. He's likley spinning in his grave by now. This story is about a guy who was inside their new multimillion dollar Amazon area of the zoo. I pass it almost every day.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by Dargo

. . . This story is about a guy who was inside their new multimillion dollar Amazon area of the zoo. . .

According to Indiana's state laws, it is illegal for cities to restrict people who have a LTCH from entering most city properties. There are some exceptions, like courthouses. But cities cannot forbid carry at generally perceived "public access areas" such as parks, zoos, bike trails, etc.

[Glink]

Open carrying in a petty zoo? C'mon.

I truly support the efforts of the attorney, but geeze.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by Glink

Open carrying in a petty zoo? C'mon.

I truly support the efforts of the attorney, but geeze.

Why is it any different than CC in a zoo?

I've open carried in Starbucks BEFORE the media jumped all over the 'guns in Starbucks' flap a year or so ago. I've open carried in the supermarket where I shop. I've open carried at the hot dog stand where I get lunch, into the bank where I make my deposits and in the Tractor Supply store. Why is ANY one of those places any different than any other place. If you OC then you OC wherever you go. If you CC then you CC wherever you go. But in either case the gun is still "in the place" that you go. Visible, invisible or partially visible. Why would it make any difference according to the law? Our law does not require concealed carry, it simply requires a license to carry.

[Glink]

Why would it make any difference according to the law? Our law does not require concealed carry, it simply requires a license to carry.

Who said it had anything to do with the law? I understand the law perfectly. In my opinion what is legal is not necessarily reasonable. I see little if any tactical advantage to open carry in general. Drawing attention to oneself is not logical.

After thinking about this thread a bit; I am going to back up and qualify my support for this attorney. If he is going around and setting up these situations, which would be pretty easy to do given the predictability of cops, then his action are more aimed at lining his own pockets at the taxpayers expense, than promoting 2A rights.

That would make him no better than your typical ambulance chasing whore.

No disrespect intended to good honest whores everywhere.

[Melensdad]

OK well there are folks here in Indiana who essentially always open carry. I'm not one of them, but I do OC from time to time so I have some observations.

First, while doing the OC thing, I have NEVER had ANYONE so much as mention my gun. Second, I honestly don't believe 95% of the people even notice the gun on my hip so I don't know how it can reasonably be interpreted that I am 'calling attention' to myself. Third, I have yet to find (news report, crime data, etc) where an OCer was singled out & shot because he was carrying openly . . . but there are many reports of people who OC who have been given credit for preventing crime.

We have no idea of the motive of this man in Evansville, but I'd be willing to bet that he is one of those guys who always carries openly and was not out to get a lawsuit against the city. Now the lawyer, that is another matter.

[loboloco]

Originally Posted by Glink

Who said it had anything to do with the law? I understand the law perfectly. In my opinion what is legal is not necessarily reasonable. I see little if any tactical advantage to open carry in general. Drawing attention to oneself is not logical.

After thinking about this thread a bit; I am going to back up and qualify my support for this attorney. If he is going around and setting up these situations, which would be pretty easy to do given the predictability of cops, then his action are more aimed at lining his own pockets at the taxpayers expense, than promoting 2A rights.

That would make him no better than your typical ambulance chasing whore.

No disrespect intended to good honest whores everywhere.

And I am from the opposite end of the scale. O.C is honest and aboveboard, both a deterrent and good relations. CC is done by those who don't want people to know they have a gun, thereby raising the suspicion that they are involved in or contemplating criminal activity.

[Dargo]

Here is our local article about the issue. You may be interested in looking at the results of the "poll" included in the article. Feel free to vote. You don't have to live here to vote. Guns in Evansville

Since I only live 3 miles from Kentucky, it's considered local for me too. Here's more trouble caused my people in my area Damned orange triangles!

[Melensdad]

It appears that on its merit, the city of Evansville can't defend against the charge of violating the new state law.

It appears likely they will try to contend that he was escorted out because he was causing a disturbance and not for anything related to his carrying. They have even ginned up the media to report that after he was approached by several officers it was the honest citizen who created a scene and that was their purpose for escorting him off the property.

That issue may come down to a Cop Said -vs- Guy Said sort of an issue.

[Glink]

Originally Posted by loboloco

And I am from the opposite end of the scale. O.C is honest and aboveboard, both a deterrent and good relations. CC is done by those who don't want people to know they have a gun, thereby raising the suspicion that they are involved in or contemplating criminal activity.

O.C is honest and aboveboard,

CC is also honest and above board.

CC is done by those who don't want people to know they have a gun,

Rather obvious.

thereby raising the suspicion that they are involved in or contemplating criminal activity

If people do not know the CC'r is carrying, your predication not mine, why would they become suspicious?

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by Glink

If people do not know the CC'r is carrying, your predication not mine, why would they become suspicious?

Many who CC don't do a particularly good job of the concealment part. Sometimes the butt of a gun is visibly printing against a shirt, or the barrel of the gun hangs down below the cover garment. Sometimes a cover garment is blown open by a breeze exposing the gun.

In all those cases the concealment part of CC is blown and it may look, to the casual observer, to be very dubious.

On the other hand a fully exposed gun is just that. No hiding. No sneaking. Just there. Funny thing is that when I've open carried I've actually never had any sort of odd experience, nobody ever questioned me, not even a single question about the gun. Maybe I'm doing it wrong because I am not creating havoc and chaos where ever I go?

[Glink]

I don't have a thing against open carry, save my comments about tactical advantage. I open carry fairly frequently, especially in conjunction with work on the farm or outside. If I need to go the gas station or the Tractor Supply or similar, I don't take the gun off. And I would agree that the reaction is minimal. However I would say that in most cases I have noticed that people "notice'' the gun. I "notice" guns when people are carrying them. No havoc or chaos created in either case in my experience either.

However when I take the grandkids to the zoo or too Chucky Cheese, I change rigs and conceal.

It's a matter of personal choice. Open carry is fine but I would expect some degree of attention from normal folks; and heightened attention from police. And I would really prefer to not be noticed.

However if my choice to conceal, delays my time to react to the obvious threat of a charge, from the ferocious bottle fed, miniature feinting goat, then I shall perish.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Glink

I don't have a thing against open carry, save my comments about tactical advantage. I open carry fairly frequently, especially in conjunction with work on the farm or outside. If I need to go the gas station or the Tractor Supply or similar, I don't take the gun off. And I would agree that the reaction is minimal. However I would say that in most cases I have noticed that people "notice'' the gun. I "notice" guns when people are carrying them. No havoc or chaos created in either case in my experience either.

However when I take the grandkids to the zoo or too Chucky Cheese, I change rigs and conceal.

It's a matter of personal choice. Open carry is fine but I would expect some degree of attention from normal folks; and heightened attention from police. And I would really prefer to not be noticed.

However if my choice to conceal, delays my time to react to the obvious threat of a charge, from the ferocious bottle fed, miniature feinting goat, then I shall perish.

+1 .

[Dargo]

I've somewhat changed my view on this particular case. From several people who personally know this guy, he's the type who goes out of their way to draw attention to themselves. I also know one of the cops on the run. They calmly approached him and simply asked him to present his permit. After that, they simply asked him to please conceal his pistol since it was causing a scene, such as yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. The pistol packer became loud and obnoxious and began threatening to sue the police.

They asked him to please step aside and speak with them. He refused and began shouting louder. At that point, he was indeed causing a public disturbance, firearm or not, and was arrested. This is NOT the type of person we want as a 'poster boy' for carrying. He went looking for trouble and found it. After hearing from people there, people who know him and one of the attending officers, I hope he loses his permit for life after this stunt.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by Dargo

. . . he was indeed causing a public disturbance, firearm or not, and was arrested. This is NOT the type of person we want as a 'poster boy' for carrying. He went looking for trouble and found it. After hearing from people there, people who know him and one of the attending officers, I hope he loses his permit for life after this stunt.

OK now I don't know the guy who did this.

But one of my monthly shooting buddies does know this guy. The guy who provided me this information is a guy I shoot with every month at a picnic/family shoot that we hold in north-central Indiana. He and I have also a business dealing so I know him better than just to see him in the next shooting booth at a public range. We've broken bread, told jokes, trade some real money, etc. Here is his report to me:

I've had a couple of conversations with the gentleman who was harassed by the local PD prior to this incident and found him to be a level-headed individual who just happens to believe in OC. He didn't go to Mesker to engage in a schoolyard prank, nor to see how much support he could lose, he went to Mesker with his family, period. When he goes places, he carries. He chooses to OC.

Now... I don't OC, but I do support the fact that IN law does not speak to that method of carry.

I have to ask, though, if we don't carry openly or we CAN'T carry openly because of some misguided law the antis might try to push... what's the difference? This gentleman was obeying the law. The police were not. If the situation were reversed, would there be people defending him for breaking the law as they are defending the police in this case?

I'll also say that his lawyer has indicated that he believes that there is plenty of evidence to prove that his client did NOT create a scene.

[Dargo]

The defense is ready with over 50 eye witnesses, many having a CC permit. Our local gun clubs have not rushed to his aid either. As I said, I wasn't there but have heard from several who were there. I'm not sure, but there are rumors of some phone videos that don't help his case; thus no representation by local council.

[loboloco]

Originally Posted by Glink

CC is also honest and above board.
Nope, sorry. The key here is "concealed", which means hidden, It might be honest, it cannot, by definition be aboveboard.
Rather obvious.
Why would you not want people to know you are armed? That knowledge is a deterrent. The desire to keep your weapon hidden is to give you an advantage, not to deter an incident

If people do not know the CC'r is carrying, your predication not mine, why would they become suspicious?

Actually, almost all CC can be spotted. The carrying of a weapon changes the dynamics of your body in small, but hard to conceal ways. The most obvious being, if you have the weapon concealed properly (totally covered), it will often have the concealer wearing clothing not quite appropriate to the situation. the second, even a relatively light firearm affects body movement and balance.

Also, criminals who use guns almost always carry them concealed.