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Old 09-13-2011, 04:54 PM
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Arrow 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

Sometimes the newest, greatest, is not really much better (if any) than the tried and true cartridges that are 100+ years old.

Using a Ballistics Calculator on the interwebs, and some published data from various manufacturers I came up with this comparison that may be of interest to some folks.

Its amazing how well the 100+ year old 30-30 Winchester stacks up against a variety of new cartridges. While at modest ranged the big 50 Beowulf dominates the energy category, the 30-30 is also bested by the 6.5 Grendel but not that not by much. The old 30-30 clearly beats the standard loads for the 6.8 SPC and the 300 AAC Blackout and is roughly the equal of the high pressure Tactical 6.8 loads at the 100 yard mark, which is a pretty reasonable hunting range here in Indiana.

Add a couple inches to each barrel, or add another 100 yards to the range and go out to 200 yards and the 6.5 Grendel starts to show clear superiority to all the choices. The biggest downside to the old Winchester 30-30 is that won't cycle through a modern AR15 rifle. Assuming an ethical hunting minimum energy of 1000 ft lbs puts the 300 AAC Blackout with an absolute maximum ethical range of 100 yards.


30-30 WINCHESTER 150grain: 2390 fps / 1902 ft lbs energy
At 100 yards . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2018 fps / 1356 ft lbs energy


MODERN CARTRIDGES OUT OF A 16" BARREL: AT THE MUZZLE
6.5 Grendel 123grain: . . . . . 2480 fps / 1680 ft lbs energy
6.8 SPC 115grain: . . . . . . . . 2500 fps / 1590 ft lbs energy
6.8 SPCII Tactical 115grain. . 2575 fps / 1694 ft lbs energy
300 AAC Blackout 123 grain: 2315 fps / 1462 ft lbs energy
7.62.39 123grain: . . . . . . . . 2350 fps / 1508 ft lbs energy ***
50 BEOWULF 325grain. . . . . 1950 fps / 2745 ft lbs energy


MODERN CARTRIDGES AT 100 yards:
6.5 Grendel 123grain: . . . . . 2325 fps / 1476 ft lbs energy
6.8 SPC 115grain. . . . . . . . . 2253 fps / 1297 ft lbs energy
6.8 SPCII Tactical 115grain: . 2323 fps / 1378 ft lbs energy
300 AAC Blackout 123 grain: 1907 fps / 993 ft lbs energy
7.62x39 123 grain: . . . . . . . 2040 fps / 1136 ft lbs energy ***
50 BEOWULF 325 grain:. . . . 1490 fps / 1603 ft lbs energy

*Muzzle velocity and energy figures all from manufacturers stated published data from Winchester, Alexander Arms, Silver State Armory and Advanced Armament.

**100 yard figures for both 6.8 rounds and the 300 AAC Blackout were calculated using this Ballistics Calculator

***20" barrel was used for the 7.62x39, data from Hornady

JUSTIFICATION: The reason I chose the cartridges above is because a 16" AR15 carbine is roughly the modern day equivalent of a typical lever action Marlin or Winchester lever action carbine.

The modern AR15 is pretty much the technological peak of commonly owned weapons today.

The lever action carbine was roughly the technological peak of commonly owned weapons when the smokeless Win 30-30 was commonly popular.

Clearly there are many rounds that beat the living snot out of these little cartridges, but if we use the limits of the AR15 as practical choice, and the limits of the commonly available 30-30 lever action carbines as the fair comparison, it eliminates many other rounds and makes the comparison easy and practical.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

Good stuff Bob.
I knew I liked my little 30/30. Especially since it's a good brush gun. A twig or a little brush will not deflect the shot off target.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

The example above is why I have so long like the Savage 99 series. Stronger, cleaner action, with pointy fast bullets. The 300 Savage was always superior to the 30-30. And, the 300 Savage Improved(AKA 308Win) is available in an AR. Granted, an AR-10

The other catch for me, is the 300 Savage was right there with 30-06 FPS/FT-LBS when introduced in Sept of 1921.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

I second the like for the 99 Savage. Got a RS in 250/3000 Savage. Gand Pa's .243 from the 1910 era. In it's heyday, a lightning bolt of a cartridge, and still very good today with modern powders. Stongest lever gun of the first 75 years or so.

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Old 09-13-2011, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

This is why I also like the 7.62x39 -- ballistically, it's almost identical to the 30-30 but faster reloads with magazines -- and it doesn't hurt my feelings when my $65 SKS gets dinged up compared to when my 336 does...
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik View Post
This is why I also like the 7.62x39. . .
WOW, I don't know why I didn't include that round in the comparison!!!

Scroll up and see that I've edited in the data.
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Old 09-15-2011, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

I have my dad's Savage model 99 rifle it's great.

Just wondering why anyone would think the AR15 based on a 40 year old design is so "modern" and great?
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catavenger View Post
Just wondering why anyone would think the AR15 based on a 40 year old design is so "modern" and great?
Many people were not fans of the lever action guns, they were often panned as inaccurate and using weak cartridges. Still they were popular and the old 30-30 still holds the record for most deer kills ever.

Good design, modern gun, or 40 years old makes no difference to me, the one fact that cannot be disputed is that the AR15 is the MOST POPULAR rifle in the USA today with 50% of all long arms sold in the US being AR15s.

So being popular and still state of the art, it made sense to compare it to the formerly popular, formerly state of the art rifle of yesteryear. That is the logic I used for the comparison: old/popular state of the art vs modern/popular state of the art.
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

I'm a levergun lover i have a savage 99 and a winchester 88 i also vave a winchester pre 64 30 wcf and a marlin 1895 modified to fire a 50 alaskan and the gun i got for my wife was a puma 454 which is a model 94 set up to accept a 454 casul it holds 10 in the tube and duplicates factory 45-70 balistics with 300 grain bullets and my crown jewl is my winchester 71 348.
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: 100yr old 30-30 Win versus: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 300 Blackout, 50 Beowulf

I have nothing against lever actions (especially the Savage 99) but compared to rifles like the HK91, the Steyr AUG & the Isreli Tavor the AR15 leaves much to be desired. Granted some of those are not available to the public.
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