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Old 07-13-2011, 09:42 AM
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Default States with “stop and identify” laws

After some of the discussion in other threads i thought I would start a new thread because I never quite understood that if you are carrying a weapon openly and asked to show some ID almost everything I have heard is that you dont have to .


I wasn't convinced that is correct at least in every state so I have been doing a little research . According to what I found on several different forum there are some states that have a "stop and identify law" . The only info I can find is from wikipedia so I am not sure how accurate it is , I.ll post it below .

Let me say I aint trying to debate anything about open carry ,I am only trying to learn for myself because it seems awfully confusing to me because it seems each city or town at least in Kansas have different type of ordinances . I would just like to have some honest input from those of you that either open carry with out a permit and those of you that have a concealed carry permit . Thanks in advance .

http://opencarry.org/ks.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

States with “stop and identify” lawsAlabamaAla. Code §15-5-30ArizonaAri. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, §2412 (enacted 2005)ArkansasArk. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1) (loitering)ColoradoColo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1)DelawareDel. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)FloridaFla. Stat. §856.021(2) (loitering and prowling)GeorgiaGa. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b) (loitering)IllinoisIll. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14IndianaIndiana Code §34-28-5-3.5KansasKan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)LouisianaLa. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)MissouriMo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)MontanaMont. Code Ann. §46-5-401NebraskaNeb. Rev. Stat. §29-829NevadaNev. Rev. Stat. §171.123New HampshireN.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2, §644:6New MexicoN.M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3New YorkN.Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50 (1)North DakotaN.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)OhioOhio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)Rhode IslandR.I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1UtahUtah Code Ann. §77-7-15VermontVt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983WisconsinWis. Stat. §968.24



As of February 2011, there is no U.S. federal law requiring that an individual identify herself during a Terry stop, but Hiibel held that states may enact such laws,[20] and 24 states have done so.[21] The opinion in Hiibel implied that persons detained by police in jurisdictions with “stop and identify” laws listed are obligated to identify themselves,[22] and that persons detained in other jurisdictions are not.[23] The issue may not be that simple, however, for several reasons:
  • The wording of “stop and identify” laws varies considerably from state to state.
  • Noncompliance with a “stop and identify” law that does not explicitly impose a penalty may constitute violation of another law, such as one to the effect of “resisting, obstructing, or delaying a peace officer”.
  • State courts have made varying interpretations of both “stop and identify” and “obstructing” laws.
[edit] Variations in “stop and identify” laws
  • Four states’ laws (Arizona, Indiana, Nevada, and Ohio) explicitly impose an obligation to provide identifying information.
  • Fifteen states grant police authority to ask questions, with varying wording, but do not explicitly impose an obligation to respond:
  • In Montana, police “may request” identifying information;
  • In 13 states (Alabama, Delaware, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Wisconsin), police “may demand” identifying information;
  • In Colorado, police “may require” identifying information of a person.
  • Identifying information varies, but typically includes
  • Name, address, and an explanation of the person’s actions;
  • In some cases it also includes the person’s intended destination, the person’s date of birth (Indiana and Ohio), or written identification if available (Colorado).
  • Arizona’s law, apparently written specifically to codify the holding in Hiibel, requires a person’s “true full name”.
  • Nevada’s law, which requires a person to “identify himself or herself”, apparently requires only that the person state his or her name.
  • In five states (Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island), failure to identify oneself is one factor to be considered in a decision to arrest. In all but Rhode Island, the consideration arises in the context of loitering or prowling.
  • Six states (Arizona, Florida, Indiana, New Mexico, Ohio, and Vermont) explicitly impose a criminal penalty for noncompliance with the obligation to identify oneself.
As of February 2011, the validity of a law requiring that a person detained provide anything more than state her name has not come before the U.S. Supreme Court.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:23 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

You do not have to show ID (federal law) unless you are exercising a right given by a state requiring ID. It is not against the law to NOT carry ID, again unless you are exercising a right given by a state.

When ask for ID by LE, you are now being reeled into giving up your right. It behooves the individual to know their right dependent on where they live. If you are required by your state to give information based on the state carry law, you need to comply. If you are being ask for ID just for the sake of the LEO and not tied to a carry law you can tell him to pound salt (although I'd recommend you say it nicely ).

If LE ask you for ID, you need to just refuse, he needs reasonable suspicion for detainment and that doesn't get him rights to ID, what if you don't have it? There is a fine line between asking for ID and detainment. It's your responsibility to know that line!

Bluntly, if you live in a state that requires ID or notification based on a firearms carry law, you need to comply.

I live in a state that does NOT require informing or showing ID for carrying open or concealed unless being detained under reasonable suspicion, in which you should have if carrying concealed.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

I do not have much of a problem with identifying myself to a LEO if it is a courteous request and not just a harassment issue. However, I do have a problem with having to show an ID if border invaders don't have to.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
You do not have to show ID (federal law) unless you are exercising a right given by a state requiring ID. It is not against the law to NOT carry ID, again unless you are exercising a right given by a state.

When ask for ID by LE, you are now being reeled into giving up your right. It behooves the individual to know their right dependent on where they live. If you are required by your state to give information based on the state carry law, you need to comply. If you are being ask for ID just for the sake of the LEO and not tied to a carry law you can tell him to pound salt (although I'd recommend you say it nicely ).

If LE ask you for ID, you need to just refuse, he needs reasonable suspicion for detainment and that doesn't get him rights to ID, what if you don't have it? There is a fine line between asking for ID and detainment. It's your responsibility to know that line!

Bluntly, if you live in a state that requires ID or notification based on a firearms carry law, you need to comply.

I live in a state that does NOT require informing or showing ID for carrying open or concealed unless being detained under reasonable suspicion, in which you should have if carrying concealed.
Thanks Dawg , still confusing to me though as far as Kansas laws . From what I read KS does have the "stop and identify" law . But according to the law itself posted below its still perty vague to me . I aint very good at understanding some things though .

22-2402.Stopping of suspect. (1) Without making an arrest, a law enforcement officer may stop any person in a public place whom such officer reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and may demand of the name, address of such suspect and an explanation of such suspect's actions.
(2) When a law enforcement officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that such officer's personal safety requires it, such officer may frisk such person for firearms or other dangerous weapons. If the law enforcement officer finds a firearm or weapon, or other thing, the possession of which may be a crime or evidence of crime, such officer may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, at which time such officer shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:44 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
I do not have much of a problem with identifying myself to a LEO if it is a courteous request and not just a harassment issue. However, I do have a problem with having to show an ID if border invaders don't have to.
I have to agree as well Jimbo . IF I drove anymore I would be expected to show ID, License, registration and proof of insurance but I dont . I have heard some folks say that if they are a passenger in a vehicle that is stopped and the LEO askes for the passengers ID they have to show it . THIS I really dont agree with and wanting to understand clearer .
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:57 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
22-2402.Stopping of suspect. (1) Without making an arrest, a law enforcement officer may stop any person in a public place whom such officer reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and may demand of the name, address of such suspect and an explanation of such suspect's actions.
(2) When a law enforcement officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that such officer's personal safety requires it, such officer may frisk such person for firearms or other dangerous weapons. If the law enforcement officer finds a firearm or weapon, or other thing, the possession of which may be a crime or evidence of crime, such officer may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, at which time such officer shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person.
This scenario is isolated to RAS. If you ain't doing anything wrong and the officer can't state the reason for the request of ID (what you're being accused for to lead to a possible arrest), you do not have to show ID. You seem to be concentrating on the stop laws vs. KS carry law.

If I have a Kansas CCH license and I am stopped by a law enforcement officer, do I have to tell the officer I have a CCH license and/or handgun?

Answer: No, although it is highly recommended! Under the KPFPA, upon
demand of a law enforcement officer, the licensee must display the license if they are carrying concealed.

You have to show your carry license if requested! Doesn't say anything else about other ID. It's based on your right in the state of KS for a firearms carry law not federal law based on RAS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
I have to agree as well Jimbo . IF I drove anymore I would be expected to show ID, License, registration and proof of insurance but I dont . I have heard some folks say that if they are a passenger in a vehicle that is stopped and the LEO askes for the passengers ID they have to show it . THIS I really dont agree with and wanting to understand clearer .
I believe this to be false, they can ask all they want but you don't have to produce it UNLESS your carrying a gun legally in your state with a law stating you must!
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Two separate issues here. CC ID and general requirement for ID. SC does not have a law that explicitly requires you to show ID, but it does require that you provide identity upon request. Failure to do so would fall under "interfering with a police officer" in performance of his duties.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
This scenario is isolated to RAS. If you ain't doing anything wrong and the officer can't state the reason for the request of ID (what you're being accused for to lead to a possible arrest), you do not have to show ID. You seem to be concentrating on the stop laws vs. KS carry law.

If I have a Kansas CCH license and I am stopped by a law enforcement officer, do I have to tell the officer I have a CCH license and/or handgun?

Answer: No, although it is highly recommended! Under the KPFPA, upon
demand of a law enforcement officer, the licensee must display the license if they are carrying concealed.

You have to show your carry license if requested! Doesn't say anything else about other ID. It's based on your right in the state of KS for a firearms carry law not federal law based on RAS.



I believe this to be false, they can ask all they want but you don't have to produce it UNLESS your carrying a gun legally in your state with a law stating you must!
Thanks again for the xplain Dawg . Yes I am kind of mixing the two issues up a bit, but only because I am thinking of a hypothetical situation .

As I have said before I have carryed concealed my entire adult life without any permit and have never had an issue when dealing with any LEO . Granted in most cases I knew the personally even when I traveled out of state ( driving a big rig ) but I allways let them know immediatlly that I did have a concealed weapon and the first thing I did was show them my Id and other necesary papers . Therefore NP as I allways treated them with respect and visa versa.

I am no longer in that situation as I no longer drive . But if I was wanting to travel ( Me not driving ) I would still carry concealed so thats why I am trying to figure out the laws for being asked for ID . If that makes sense . Before I voluntarily said I was carrying ans showed proper ID .

Now I would not want to and I still dont have a permit or want one Because it is my right to carry for self defense . Just because they have instituted some damn law that says I have to pay and file for a permit dont mean I am going to go along with it . I'm no better then anyone else, I just think and do things a lot different then most .

Bottom line, is if I never do anything wrong I should be able to travel freely across the US with never having to show any ID if asked as long as I am not operating a motor vehicle , Is that correct ?
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
Bottom line, is if I never do anything wrong I should be able to travel freely across the US with never having to show any ID if asked as long as I am not operating a motor vehicle , Is that correct ?
Hypothetically Yes ........ BUT you never know when you'll run into one of those LEO that don't respect civilians nor the citizens rights.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

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Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
Hypothetically Yes ........ BUT you never know when you'll run into one of those LEO that don't respect civilians nor the citizens rights.
Well this is the part I dont understand is the "May demand" wording . Thats kind of like me saying I MIGHT have a gun .

"In 13 states (Alabama, Delaware, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Wisconsin), police “may demand” identifying"
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

It's the same as "I may piss on your boots" IMO

If they "may demand" sounds like they are states that require CCW ID if requested .................
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: States with “stop and identify” laws

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It's the same as "I may piss on your boots" IMO

If they "may demand" sounds like they are states that require CCW ID if requested .................
Thats kind of what I was thinkin , Thanks Dawg . I'll post anything else that I find interesting in this thread from this Open carry KS forum I have been reading .

They have a few guys that have been pushing the envelope like a couple of the vids I have posted and they were not very well received by a lot of the long time forum members . I dont have a point, I just find everyones opinions interesting .
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