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UK's healthcare system failing, cutting benefits, facing collapse

Melensdad

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
Oh sure, the doctor will still take care of you, but not if you need a hernia operation, a hip replacement or require eye surgery. Those are not critical. Health care rationing, we are told that won't happen, but that is what is happening.

So its happened in Canada, and continuing there. England is in turmoil. Even the EU's strongest member, Germany, is faced with making cuts to its budgets. So how can we, in the US, believe that we can pull off what all these other nations have failed at doing? How can we believe the lies that our politicians have told us about the success of the European health care model when it is collapsing?

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAna...1006072333/The-Doctor-Will-See-You-Later.aspx
Investors Business Daily said:
The Doctor Will See You Later

Posted 06/07/2010 06:33 PM ET

Health Care: The British government has decided that it needs to cut millions of operations because the public system cannot afford them. This is coming soon to a hospital or doctor's office near you.

According to the Daily Mail, Britain's National Health Service is "preparing to cut millions of operations" so that it can save $29 billion by 2014. Procedures that will be "decommissioned," if we may borrow a particularly descriptive term used by one doctor, include hip replacements for obese patients, some operations for hernias and gallstones, and treatments for varicose veins, ear and nose problems, and cataract surgery.

Thus is the future of all socialized medicine. Bureaucratic rationing of treatment is inevitable. No system can forever meet the demand of "free" care. Jeff Taylor of the Economic Voice clarified the problem when he wrote last week that "the U.K. is broke."

"Our whole society and way of life is now built on the shaky foundation of debt," he writes in response to the NHS cuts. "Our hospitals, schools, armed forces, police, prisons and social services are founded on debt. In truth we have not yet paid for the operations that have already taken place."
As former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher famously — and fittingly — said: The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money to spend. This is a universal truth, more universal than the health care provided in Britain. To trifle with it, ignore it, disrespect it, attempt to repeal it or arrogantly try to bypass it will always lead to trouble.​
Yet the political left continually makes those mistakes and operates as if governments will never run out of other people's money. Until it does. And then the government has to make cuts and ration the benefits.

What have the congressional Democrats who rammed through their health care overhaul been watching over the years as both hard and soft socialist governments have either collapsed, continued to bring misery or become unsustainable? Despite ample evidence that a welfare state cannot thrive, these lawmakers have forced on the country a "reform" that will load Americans with a burden they will not long be able to bear.

Though it was sold to the public as a plan that, at $940 billion over the first decade, would bring down the deficit, the real cost for the initial 10 years could be as much as $2.5 trillion, including mandates placed on the private sector, according to an estimate by the Cato Institute.
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AND
The Examiner said:
Government Health Care’s inevitable fate – bankruptcy or denial of care
By: Bruce McQuain
Special to The Examiner
06/08/10 3:15 PM EDT

Canada’s health care system is in deep trouble financially. So it should come as no surprise that the British NHS is as well. It is again of proving correct Margaret Thatcher, who said, “the trouble with socialism you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

The Brits ran out of “other people’s money” quite some time ago (as is the US as debt and deficit figures show) and their social structures are existing on accumulating debt. The NHS, a celebrated “single-payer” government run system in place since right after WW II, is failing:

Jeff Taylor of the Economic Voice clarified the problem when he wrote last week that “the U.K. is broke.”

“Our whole society and way of life is now built on the shaky foundation of debt,” he writes in response to the NHS cuts. “Our hospitals, schools, armed forces, police, prisons and social services are founded on debt. In truth we have not yet paid for the operations that have already taken place.”

The NHS is planning on extensive rationing of surgery in order to meet budgetary needs. The service is looking at eliminating literally millions – with an “m” – of surgical procedures because it simply can no longer afford them. Representative of those procedures which will no longer be available to NHS members are hip replacements for obese patients, some operations for hernias and gallstones, and treatments for varicose veins, ear and nose problems, and cataract surgery.

The intent is to “save” 29 billion by telling patients in need of those procedures “no.”

It is rationing, pure and simple – and as promised by the critics. More importantly, it is government deciding what you can or can’t have, regardless of your preference or need. This is indeed the ultimate outcome of handing things such as health care over to any third party, and especially government. And the problem is compounded when “cost containment” takes precedence over health care.

In the case of the US, that is precisely the mandate government has assumed with its legislative charter to “cut costs” in the health care business. With that as a priority, and given the structure of the new law - an almost impossible priority to fulfill - the same outcome is almost guaranteed here as is happening in the UK. With cost containment driving the train shortages are inevitable. And what those shortages mean, in concrete terms, is exactly what the NHS is planning on doing in the UK – denying patients health care.


Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...or-denial-of-care-95885879.html#ixzz0qIsRQkjS​
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mak2 said:
So having a more expensive healthcare system would be better? Good idea.
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You are again confusing GOVERNMENT spending with PRIVATE spending. Currently we have mostly PRIVATE spending on healthcare. Shifting that burden to the government spending model will actually increase the costs.

In fact that has been shown to be true in every model as costs have gone up. And in the case of the $940 Billion dollar package of goods sold to the US citizens which you claim is "cheaper" the CBO has revised its figures and come out with $2.5 TRILLION as the more likely cost to our government.

Plain and simple it is not sustainable spending.

England has failed at it. Canada has failed at it. Every other nation doing it is failing at it.

How do you suppose we will succeed?
 
You are kidding right? Which UHC country is trying to change to our kind of system. Wait, not a one.
 
It costs the citizens less money and they get better healthcare. Goodness they are stupid.
 
mak2 said:
You are kidding right? Which UHC country is trying to change to our kind of system. Wait, not a one.
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That is not the question.

The question is if all of theirs are FAILING why are we emulating systems that are collapsing?

But as for their failures, they are looking to simply CUT CARE while our current system still provides it :hammer: If they were to change to our system their people would pay LESS in taxes, but more out of their pockets and their people would actually get treatment!!!
 
mak2 said:
It costs the citizens less money and they get better healthcare. Goodness they are stupid.
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How are they getting better care? They won't be able to get what we consider to be BASIC care!!!

Did you not see what they are cutting???
 
mak2 said:
When an insurance company refuses to pay for a procedure, what do you call it?
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You protest and find a new insurance provider...

Where do ya go when the govt rations; controlling all procedures and access from their QLY $30K, $44K $50K nameless faceless lookup table Washington death panels??
 
you're obviouly just parroting limbaugh and hannity, there's no way those systems could be short on money and have to ration healthcare:whistling:

























.........how 'bout a big fat we told you so !
 
Why are people still coming to America for their health care needs if things are so good in Canada and the UK?

mak2 just likes to stir the pot. He's really a closet conservative.
 
Perhaps a biased source, but the information is critical (not unlike the budget cuts the Brits are facing)
http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2010/06/single-payer-hell-british-nhs-to-cancel.html
Single-Payer Hell: British NHS to cancel "millions of operations" to save costs. Elderly to be hardest hit

I have said many times in this blog that the hardest hit by ObamaCare will end up being seniors. All government run plans have one end result - rationing. And what is rationed is that which is most expensive. And those that bear the brunt of the rationing are those that need those expensive procedures but who aren't expected to be paying much in the way of taxes - the elderly. From the UK Daily Mail: NHS 'preparing to cut millions of operations': Patients will lose out to ensure £20bn savings
Millions of patients face losing NHS care as bosses prepare to axe treatments to make £20billion of savings by 2014, a top doctor has warned.​
Now check out the treatments being cut and think of who will be most hurt by it:
Among procedures being targeted by health trusts are hernias, joint replacements, ear and nose procedures, varicose veins and cataract surgery.​
These are considered 'low value' procedures because they are done for the elderly that won't live much longer and young children that don't pay taxes. This is the essence of comparative effectiveness that is at the heart of ObamaCare. Comparative effectiveness, as per Obama's rationing czar 'Dr.' Ezekiel Emanuel, takes only 2 things into consideration when denying or approving treatment: 1) age, 2) cost. Simple as that. It yields this ghoulish chart:
emanuel.jpg
This chart would be page 1 of the "how to" guide of any death panel.
'Already NHS commissioners are drawing up lists of health interventions that must be decommissioned. Cut. Stopped. Not done any more.

'These lists are clothed in the language of evidence but they represent target reductions based on cost and volume, sometimes ignoring the potential benefit to individual patients.​
No government-run healthcare system embodies all that is wrong and unholy with the very concept of Obamacare more than Britain's barbaric, medieval, hellhole the National Health Service (NHS), the 3rd largest employer in the world with more bureaucrats on the payroll than doctors.

In Britain, under the draconian NHS, cancer patients are denied life-saving drugs to save money, Alzheimer's patients are denied coverage because the disease is not classified as a health condition, the ambulance service gets paid to NOT take patients to hospitals, patients are encouraged to email doctors rather than visit, patients are denied life-extending drugs because of the expense, broken arms sometimes take up to 10 months to fix, babies born prematurely are left to die if they come out before a certain date, terminally ill patients, and some that are not ill at all, are put on a fast track to death, grandmas are left to die of starvation, patients with chest pains are sent home with pain pills only to die later that same day, patients are denied water only to die later of dehydration, women give birth on the pavement, and in hospital toilets and hallways, and prisoners eat better than NHS patients. More than 1 million people are subject to neglectful care and surgeries have failure rates up to 33%, with some surgeries done or not done in error, the infirm are routinely neglected and patients die routinely due to filth and blood-splattered equipment. For many, the only thing standing between them and deranged 3rd world doctors shipped into Britain is a nurse. The horror stories go on and on, such as the one's I have written about at the end of this post. BUT... NHS does have money to have violent child predators put on Viagra, and to irreversibly mutilate 12-year olds. Oh yeah - the bureaucrats exempt themselves from NHS and instead get private coverage. Just like in ObamaCare! If you yourself try to get even a private consultation? They'll bar you from necessary surgery. Take that you anti-socialist scum!
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oh and then . . .


mak2 said:
It costs the citizens less money and they get better healthcare. Goodness they are stupid.
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Apparently they don't get better healthcare!

And last time there was a serious discussion on the general topic of healthcare it was argued that a universal care system would follow a scientific method of best practices. Apparently that is not happening in the UK because they are following a budget system.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ients-lose-ensure-20bn-savings.html?ITO=1490#
NHS 'preparing to cut millions of operations': Patients will lose out to ensure £20bn savings

By Jenny Hope
Last updated at 11:53 AM on 4th June 2010

Millions of patients face losing NHS care as bosses prepare to axe treatments to make £20billion of savings by 2014, a top doctor has warned.

Among procedures being targeted by health trusts are hernias, joint replacements, ear and nose procedures, varicose veins and cataract surgery.

Dr Mark Porter, chairman of the British Medical Association's consultants committee, warned NHS bosses wanted 'wholesale reductions in budgets'.
article-1283873-03224966000005DC-821_468x286.jpg
Cutting back: Procedures including joint replacements and ear and nose procedures could be axed as NHS bosses cut costs

He said primary care trusts - which commission care - are already compiling lists of 'low value' operations that would no longer be provided.

These include hip replacements for obese patients and some operations for hernias and gallstones. Procedures for varicose veins, ear and nose problems including grommets in children are also not funded in some areas.

Dr Porter said it was wrong to impose blanket bans on such procedures when some patients might benefit.

Although the Government has pledged to defend spending, trusts are preparing for a period of 'unprecedented retrenchment' to make the £20billion savings within four years, he said.

'Already NHS commissioners are drawing up lists of health interventions that must be decommissioned. Cut. Stopped. Not done any more.

'These lists are clothed in the language of evidence but they represent target reductions based on cost and volume, sometimes ignoring the potential benefit to individual patients.

Earlier this year the Government's rationing body said more cuts in medical treatments are planned to save the NHS at least £600million.

Patients could find it harder to get into hospital under plans from the National Institute for health and Clinical Excellence, which advises on drugs and procedures to be funded.

Nice will also push through 150 changes to medical practice aimed at saving money, from reducing prescribing of antibiotics by GPs to delaying some prostate cancer tests.

​
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Melensdad said:
How are they getting better care? They won't be able to get what we consider to be BASIC care!!!

Did you not see what they are cutting???
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Bob, those in the UK never got anything remotely to what we have as basic care in the first place, if you are talking about good time spent with your doctor, the time to consider appropriate care, it's really nothing like it is here at all.
I always felt rushed in and out as did my family members. It's not like walking into an appointment in this country.

Now I was hospitalized over there one time in the 5 years I spent there.
Going to the doctor's surgery for a scheduled appointment was never really a problem most of the time, however.. there were a few times where I was told the next time I could be seen was 2 weeks from the day I called.

I had a good friend Jane whose Father was on a waiting list for open heart surgery for 3 weeks.
In this country, the wait would never be that long.

Some of the hospitals are atrocious with lacking staff, old buildings with bad flooring, tiles cracked, crowded wards..
(how many of us in this country would appreciate being placed on a ward with 12 people in one place?)
That was me when I was admitted to Pinderfields General. Talk about a shock.
No privacy except for a curtain. Loud. 1 bathroom/shower to share amongst the 12.

It certainly is a whole different ball game I must say, but all in all, I didn't find their system that bad, as the doctors and nurses over there had always been very caring with some alternative treatments that aren't practiced in this country as a rule.

If it's going to get worse, then God help them all.
 
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EastTexFrank said:
Amen sister!!!!!
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Frank, I know you lived there quite a while ago.
I don't know if BUPA was even an option for private care then.

The NHS must be going down the drain and I am afraid that what was my paid in insurance at one time, an adequate and mostly good system is now going to go tits up (pardon me).

Seems like they who are working and paying in, or on the dole.. don't stand a chance either way.
The only folks over there who won't suffer much would be those who are wealthy enough to afford private, as covered under BUPA.
 
The article is just scaremongering twaddle...the clear message from our new Government is yes we need to tighten the purse strings if we are going to get rid of the Debt left behind by a over spending wasteful Government,Blair,Brown and the rest of the "line your pockets Labour Gang" pissed away Billions with nothing to show for it(unless you take into account their own personal bank balances).

The past 10 years have seen every service that the Tax payer pays for dwindle into a unacceptable state where it functions with barely a pulse,in fact most services including the NHS has been close to needing re-suss,and most of the problem is the UK is so tied up in Red Tape it takes a mountain of admin to manage all the Bullshit and this costs wasteful amounts of $$$....and this problem is sent over from Brussels,again another problem with past Government handing over every day powers to Europe which is madness and beyond belief.

Cutbacks will be made in the UK,but not on front line services like the NHS...in fact more spending has been promised,wasteful spending will be targeted and Red Tape will be removed...Doctors that have had easy handouts and high wages from the previous Government will be expected to earn these wages now with surgeries being made to open for longer hours and to spend more time with patients,just a few of the planned changes on the agenda.

So just be careful on how much you believe in these scaremongering articles,yes the UK is Fucked up and in the shit in many ways,but we have a new Government working hard to stop us ending up like Greece and Spain to mention just a few of our European Neighbors,and the only way to achieve this is to stop Pissing Money down the pan like there is no tomorrow....but at the same time Granny will still get her new Hip....in fact she may get 2:yum::yum::yum:
 
grizzer said:
You protest and find a new insurance provider...

Where do ya go when the govt rations; controlling all procedures and access from their QLY $30K, $44K $50K nameless faceless lookup table Washington death panels??
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Another provider wont cover whatever your problem is because they call it preexisting conditons.

:w00t2:death panels.
 
Galvatron said:
The article is just scaremongering twaddle...the clear message from our new Government is yes we need to tighten the purse strings if we are going to get rid of the Debt left behind by a over spending wasteful Government,Blair,Brown and the rest of the "line your pockets Labour Gang" pissed away Billions with nothing to show for it(unless you take into account their own personal bank balances).

The past 10 years have seen every service that the Tax payer pays for dwindle into a unacceptable state where it functions with barely a pulse,in fact most services including the NHS has been close to needing re-suss,and most of the problem is the UK is so tied up in Red Tape it takes a mountain of admin to manage all the Bullshit and this costs wasteful amounts of $$$....and this problem is sent over from Brussels,again another problem with past Government handing over every day powers to Europe which is madness and beyond belief.

Cutbacks will be made in the UK,but not on front line services like the NHS...in fact more spending has been promised,wasteful spending will be targeted and Red Tape will be removed...Doctors that have had easy handouts and high wages from the previous Government will be expected to earn these wages now with surgeries being made to open for longer hours and to spend more time with patients,just a few of the planned changes on the agenda.

So just be careful on how much you believe in these scaremongering articles,yes the UK is Fucked up and in the shit in many ways,but we have a new Government working hard to stop us ending up like Greece and Spain to mention just a few of our European Neighbors,and the only way to achieve this is to stop Pissing Money down the pan like there is no tomorrow....but at the same time Granny will still get her new Hip....in fact she may get 2:yum::yum::yum:
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Galv, you are the greatest.:beer:

I have presented you guys with study after study. Yet you still choose to ignore the facts and insist on sending your money to the most ineffient healthcare system in the world. I really dont get it. I guess there are really none so blind as he who will not see.

You guys realize the healthcare industry (insurance companies) are the ones you should be afraid of, not UHC.
 
I think you need to re-read Galvi's post more critically.

Perhaps some of the talk of cuts is scaremonger as he writes, but he also writes that:
The past 10 years have seen every service that the Tax payer pays for dwindle into a unacceptable state where it functions with barely a pulse,in fact most services including the NHS has been close to needing re-suss,and most of the problem is the UK is so tied up in Red Tape it takes a mountain of admin to manage all the Bullshit and this costs wasteful amounts of $$$....and this problem is sent over from Brussels,again another problem with past Government handing over every day powers to Europe which is madness and beyond belief.
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And this is a clear statement against centralized power. The US is larger than all of Europe and the UK, while powerful and well developed is not much larger than a couple of our mid-west states. Galvi is railing against central decision making on a much smaller scale than you are suggesting we push toward.

I fail to see how your arguments carry much weight in the light of the mountain of evidence that opposes your view.
 
I think you need to re-read Galvi's post more critically.

Perhaps some of the talk of cuts is scaremonger as he writes, but he also writes that:
The past 10 years have seen every service that the Tax payer pays for dwindle into a unacceptable state where it functions with barely a pulse,in fact most services including the NHS has been close to needing re-suss,and most of the problem is the UK is so tied up in Red Tape it takes a mountain of admin to manage all the Bullshit and this costs wasteful amounts of $$$....and this problem is sent over from Brussels,again another problem with past Government handing over every day powers to Europe which is madness and beyond belief.
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And this is a clear statement against centralized power. The US is larger than all of Europe and the UK, while powerful and well developed is not much larger than a couple of our mid-west states. Galvi is railing against central decision making on a much smaller scale than you are suggesting we push toward.

I fail to see how your arguments carry much weight in the light of the mountain of evidence that opposes your view.
 
Melensdad said:
I think you need to re-read Galvi's post more critically.

Perhaps some of the talk of cuts is scaremonger as he writes, but he also writes that:

And this is a clear statement against centralized power. The US is larger than all of Europe and the UK, while powerful and well developed is not much larger than a couple of our mid-west states. Galvi is railing against central decision making on a much smaller scale than you are suggesting we push toward.

I fail to see how your arguments carry much weight in the light of the mountain of evidence that opposes your view.
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OK Bob, whatever.
 
The canucks don't seem to be doing too well either according to reuters.
Income Redistribution: Canadian Health Care Warning

Canada's socialist health care system certainly served as a warning for those willing to heed it in the push to do similar mischief here in the U.S. Unfortunately, the voices of fiscal responsibility were drowned out by cries of "Hope 'n' Change." The warning persists, however. Reuters headlined this week "Soaring costs force Canada to reassess health model."
Reuters reports, "Pressured by an aging population and the need to rein in budget deficits, Canada's provinces are taking tough measures to curb healthcare costs, a trend that could erode the principles of the popular state-funded system." Despite the fact that the system is preferred by 82 percent of Canadians, "popular" must be taken with a grain of salt. Ask those who have been denied care, or those who languish on months- or years-long waiting lists for procedures routine in the U.S. (at least for now), or those who travel to the U.S. for the best care (as did Danny Williams, Premiere of Newfoundland and Labrador). Lives have been shortened and the quality of life has deteriorated under Canada's "popular" system.

Furthermore, costs are exploding. Ontario estimates that in 12 years health care could consume 70 percent of its budget. Provinces now spend about 40 percent of their budgets on health care versus roughly 7 percent in the 1970s. It's as if we Americans can see the future being played out before our eyes.​
 
But, muleman, all that is irrelevant. since government supplies this it has to be a better system than walking into the hospital and receiving the care you need immediately and worrying about the bills after.
 
pirate_girl said:
Frank, I know you lived there quite a while ago.
I don't know if BUPA was even an option for private care then.

The NHS must be going down the drain and I am afraid that what was my paid in insurance at one time, an adequate and mostly good system is now going to go tits up (pardon me).

Seems like they who are working and paying in, or on the dole.. don't stand a chance either way.
The only folks over there who won't suffer much would be those who are wealthy enough to afford private, as covered under BUPA.
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Yes, BUPA was available but wasn't very widespread when I lived there.

I've just returned from the UK and I talked to quite a few people about their NHS. It seems that the majority of of the people I talked to, admittedly mostly middle class, had BUPA coverage. Some, like my son, received it as part of their employment package and some privately. As I've said before on this board, most used the NHS for minor ailments, coughs,sneezes, bruises, flue etc., but used their BUPA coverage for anything that required more more advanced treatment, techniques or facilities.

The sad thing that I learned was that in some cases those more advanced procedures were supplied by the NHS service. In order to offset costs and raise cash, the NHS sells time, rents out their equipment to the private sector. So, what your BUPA coverage enables you to do in some cases is jump to the head of the waiting list and effectively increases the delay for NHS patients who are listed and waiting to gain access to those facilities.

Now, don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a NHS in principle, it was a Godsend to the poor working class when it was introduced in 1949(?). It's just that it has been grossly underfunded for decades until it has reached the point where it has almost ceased to function above a certain level. And, that is the whole point. The only thing that will bring the NHS up to the standard of healthcare enjoyed in this country is a huge influx of cash. The only way the Government can get that cash is by increasing the NHS contributions paid by the population to a level that would lead to a popular revolt. Therefore, the NHS has always been underfunded, is presently underfunded and will always be underfunded which leads to a continual downward spiral of services and investment in healthcare and, I'm afraid, to it's ultimate demise. The same thing will happen in this country.

I've tried very hard to stay out of this healthcare debate but when PG opened the door I couldn't resist stepping through. I hope I don't regret it. :flowers::flowers::flowers::flowers:
 
Well said Frank!

I think the reality is that these programs (like almost all government social programs) are forms of Ponzi schemes. The only way they get passed is when the politicians promise something better than what is currently available. The problem is that the promises are short lived and may only last one generation before the financial reality kicks in.
 
From what I understand, the people of the U.K. and Canada love their health care system----untill they get sick.
 
TJE said:
From what I understand, the people of the U.K. and Canada love their health care system----untill they get sick.
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Maybe.
What used to piss me off is the thought of those who work and pay into the system are supporting those who live on the dole, fat and happy in their council flats, riddled with crime without thinking of any way of bettering themselves, as in getting a JOB for one.
If you work, you're adding to the kitty of National Health, if you don't.. well,.. don't worry, everyone else is taking care of you.
 
pirate_girl said:
Maybe.
What used to piss me off is the thought of those who work and pay into the system are supporting those who live on the dole, fat and happy in their council flats, riddled with crime without thinking of any way of bettering themselves, as in getting a JOB for one.
If you work, you're adding to the kitty of National Health, if you don't.. well,.. don't worry, everyone else is taking care of you.
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Sounds like here. :sad: It's just human nature, you don't have to have a PHD to grasp it. Giving people shit they don't have to earn ruins their sorry ass.
The examples are all around us, you only have to open your eyes to see.
By "you", I don't mean YOU PG.:biggrin: You obviously do see.
 
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