Gas Mileage? Diesels?

[The Tourist]

I've never been in a snow-cat. In fact, I've only been on a snowmobile twice.

Some of these machines look quite large, and have very big tracks front and rear.

Granted, some have to push plows and pull heavy weight in the dead of winter, but how much fuel does one of these bad boys consume? Does it matter if it's a diesel?

[Lyndon]

My Snow Trac's, all 11, big engines and little engines got about 4 miles to the gallon, my big tucker 443 got around 4 or 5 MPG. The Trac Master got 3 MPG. My little Bombi got about 6 MPG, and I never checked the milage on my Muskeg carrier. The big Nodwell I drove in alaska got less than a mile to a gallon, and the Rolligon, which ran on tires got less that a mile on 6 gallons of fuel for each of 2 engines! They are all gas guzzlers. This was always the problem for millitary tracked vehicles. APC personel carriers and Tanks with often 900HP engines get less that a mile on 10 gallons of fuel. One of the ways we were able to starve Hitler out was to cut off his fuel supply to his mechanized armor.

[The Tourist]

And that's why I asked the question.

It doesn't look like there's anything "bulbous" in the shape of these vehicles like a fuel bladder, it looks like the inside of one seats several people, and it doesn't look like many pull extra fuel.

In a situation where the cats go out into remote areas it would appear as if they have to stay pretty close to home.

How do you guys do it?

[Lyndon]

Because of the average speed is low, one can only cover so much ground in a day. Most of my trips average about 24 miles in a day. The fartherest I ever went in a day, was from West Yellowstone to Old Faithful and back, 38 miles each way, 76 Miles total. This was a 10 hour day. In the Arctic it took 6 hours for us to go 20 miles in a caravan or rolligons. >
>
This is one of six Rolligon's that I rode from Badalmi to Prudhoe in, at about 40 below. Originally built by Bechtel, at a price of 1.7 Million each. Powered by (2) diesel V8's. Carries over a thousand gallons of fuel. (4) 55 gallon drums will fit on each fender in the place of a regular "GI" gas can. Top speed is about 10MPH. CATCO, the current owner of the rolligon patents, builds one new machine a year, and they all live in Deadhorse Alaska. They are one of the only machines that are approved to run on the tundra without building an Ice Road and can carry substaintial loads.

[Lyndon]

I've seen Rolligons with fully loaded Truck and Trailers riding on them regularly up here.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

In a situation where the cats go out into remote areas it would appear as if they have to stay pretty close to home.

How do you guys do it?

There is a thread here somewhere (with pictures) about my misadventures where I went out on a nice sunny winter day, driving along the river bordering my property out into the woods, playing in the fields and then coming home again. I was out alone, without a radio or phone, for several hours.

A half tank of fuel got me all the way out there, but only most of the way home.

It was a cold walk home, fortunately it was just about a mile back to the house and it was dark by the time I got back. Walking back through the fields in deep snow with 5 gallons of gas is no fun. Fortunately I don't live in a remote area so there was nothing life threatening about my stupidity. Some of the folks here are in seriously isolated areas and running out of fuel for them could lead to a life threatening situation.

Our snowcats are fun toys, but the conditions we operate them in can be seriously dangerous.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by B_Skurka

Some of the folks here are in seriously isolated areas and running out of fuel for them could lead to a life threatening situation...fun toys.

I know that 'feeling' as new EFI Harleys have no reserve tank.

The sport looks like fun, at least the little cats that seem more designed for leisure.

But truth be told, I would construct some "little niche' onboard" for a cheese sandwich and a gas can before I hit the high country.

I really liked that little sno-cat with the custom interior. You have to hang chrome somewhere...

[Snowcat Operations]

My longest trip last year was 51 miles in to one of our remote sites. I broke trail the entire way and consumed almost 30 gallons! Coming out I burned about 10 gallons. I drove back out on my original trail. That was a 20 hour day. I believe it took me over 10 hours to go the 51 miles. Total for the day was 102 miles! Thats allot in any tracked rig.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

The sport looks like fun, at least the little cats that seem more designed for leisure.

Well I don't really know of too many that are/were designed for leisure. I think many of us use the older units for that purpose, but these things were really designed as workhorses. The origins of my Snow Trac go back to rural Sweden and were used for winter hunting and winter transport. Commercially they were used for snow grooming in the Olympics, as search and rescue vehicles, winter ambulances, utility companies in Canada and Scotland used them for remote access. Snow Tracs were used in Antarctica at the Scott base and others and they were adapted by the British military and used to patrol the Norwegian mountain border areas under NATO auspices during the cold war. Small as they are, a Snow Trac will seat 7, haul a half ton of cargo and pull a similar amount.

Thiokol and Tucker had similar commercial, expedition and military histories. Probably the one snowcat that was used more for personal use than any others were the Kristi snowcats, and that may explain why so few were built?

[Snowcat Operations]

They work when no other vehicle will. Simple as that.

[The Tourist]

Wisconsin got over 100" of snow, and this year is targeted to break that record.

We had a serious Interstate shut-down last year that stranded 100 cars. Emergency supplies were ferried in by snowmobiles. The head of our State Patrol was lucky to keep his job.

My thinking is that not everyone benefits from a snowmobile. Let's face it, they seem to build them for performance. A lot of good that is going to do for older folks or the injured.

To me, a snowmobile is just a 'winter motorcycle.' I see most of them parked behind snow covered taverns.

I've often wondered when some entrepreneur is really going to build a real "mobile" for snow.

And I believe that day is coming, albeit slowly. For example, we now have plug-in electric vests for motorcycles. Harley just built a commercial three wheeler.

The idea of safety, comfort and snowstorms seems to be coming together.

Now granted, today my vision here is a crackpot idea. Kind of like a SmartCar with tracks and heater. But the idea of firing up a realistic city-sno-cat you operate like a small winter car would definitely aid many folks.

As the population ages...

[fogtender]

I have an IMP that I have driven about 80 miles in one day out to my cabin and back, it took about thirty gallons of gas for the round, so that is about 2.5 MPG. ON the trips where the snow was deep and pulling a load, I took that to get out the first forty miles. Normally I go out and spend a few days there before coming back, just the drive out will beat you up pretty good if the trail is hard packed and rough, not beat up as if you were cutting firewood all day, but as if someone was beating on you with a hammer all day all over your body... Your arms get a bit tired of the pull steering when you spend a lot of time darting in and around the trees on the trails. Other rigs ride like a car, but they cost ten times as much too and are normally "shop queens" (ride for an hour, work on it for two).

If I was on a hard pack flat trail/road and could get up to about 18 MPH, instead of the 8 to 10 I get on a the normal trail, I would double my mileage when running the engine at about the same RPM but in a few hears higher. You don't have the friction of dragging the tracks though the snow/mud/grass and life it good...

Much depends on the trail conditions, load and terrain. A diesel verses gas would get better mileage due to a higher lower end torque on the same size diesel, which allows the engine to use lower RPM and go in a higher gear. If I found a diesel that I liked, I would put one in the Imp to replace the gas engine. But the gas engine runs very well and that is a hard thing to change out when it isn't broken....

[Snowcat Operations]

Tourist,
The description you are painting is a 4x4 with a set of Max Tracks. For city or town that gets allot of snow I feel they are the perfect combination. Back country use would be limited to firm hard pack or low levels of powder. But great for the city for sure. Anything approaching deep fluff you need a Snowcat.

[Snowcat Operations]

Fogtender you couldnt be more right! The same trail can see you from 1 MPG to 10. All depends on snow depth and makeup.

[The Tourist]

There is no doubt in my mind that you guys are right. I was thinking out loud. In other words, why does the current product line need to follow the idea of your work cats?

Yes, you guys need working cats, or in some areas nothing is ever going to be repaired or transported. Emergency services are going to always need you guys.

Today in the Madison area we have several inches of slush on the street, a light rain, falling temperatures and the threat of more snow. Traffic is about to come to a halt.

Several years ago, my boss took a financial team to northern Wisconsin to see about buying out an electronics engineering firm. We took the company van, and got plastered with a snow storm long before we hit the northern part of the state!

As we pulled in for gas, we noticed that the locals had all switched over to snowmobiles, and it seemed the local law enforcement either looked the other way or permitted the use in storms. Folks were going to the store, returning from work and doing last minute errands on snowmobiles on city streets.

I envisioned some form of covered, track-driven, golf cart.

I was wondering about fuel costs as things progress this year. Yikes, it looks like cats eat more fuel than a Dodge Hemi.

[Melensdad]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

As we pulled in for gas, we noticed that the locals had all switched over to snowmobiles, and it seemed the local law enforcement either looked the other way or permitted the use in storms. Folks were going to the store, returning from work and doing last minute errands on snowmobiles on city streets.

I envisioned some form of covered, track-driven, golf cart.

I was wondering about fuel costs as things progress this year. Yikes, it looks like cats eat more fuel than a Dodge Hemi.

Well a few things. There are new snowcats that are roughly the equivalent in size, convenience of a modern well decked out mini-van. They are very expensive, $80,000 is not unreasonable for a base price. Second, these things are comparatively slow, not suited for longer trips but suited for around town, however the town roads are usually the very first to be opened. A track drive golf cart would work, but only if the engine was bumped up in power. There are conversion tracks that can be put onto a Kubota RTV1000 or Polaris Ranger or similar unit.

[Av8r3400]

Originally Posted by The Tourist

I envisioned some form of covered, track-driven, golf cart.

Ski Doo Elite About $20k new. It could have a full cab, two seats, with little modification.

YouTube - Ski-Doo Elite - Old Forge, NY

[The Tourist]

Ski Doo Elite.

Yes, that's what I envisioned. And for the northern parts of Wisconsin it would make a good deal of sense.

Here's my thinking. Not eveyone needs a heavy four-wheeler like an F-150 for the entire year. However, we do have five months of snow and storms and folks still have to go out to work and for errands.

If, as your comments imply, a traditional cat would just be too much to afford for extended daily use.

I'm surprised this Elite isn't more popular.

[groomerguyNWO]

Back to the question at hand....
I operate a snowcat on more of a commercial scale than the guys here with personal cats. I put in long hours on a regular basis in a snowcat with a 174hp cummins deisel pulling a drag full of snow. The machine I run has a 79 gallon fuel tank. our machine also has a 30 gallon long range tank. With both tanks full, I can run 120 miles without refueling. But that's in 3-4 ft of fresh powder pulling a 3400lb drag full of snow at roughly 7-9mph

[Bobcat]

Originally Posted by B_Skurka

<snip>
Probably the one snowcat that was used more for personal use than any others were the Kristi snowcats, and that may explain why so few were built?

Weren't you corrected on this once before? As seen on the 'other' site, the far majority of Kristis were sold to the FAA, police departments, water departments, ranching concerns, ski resorts, etc. Several are still in use by such agencies and companies.

I suspect, but have no evidence, that the reasons contributing to the relatively low production numbers include the unusual looks, customer fear of fiberglass, and poor business acumens of the company owner(s). Too bad, as they were the most advanced cat out there.