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Charity: Who Gives More? Liberals or Conservatives?

Cityboy

Banned
Isn't it interesting that liberals say they "care more" about people, yet the stats do not bear this out. Of course, they care more with other peoples tax money, but what about with their own money? Read on; you might be surprised:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=who_gives_to_charity&ns=JohnStossel&dt=12/06/2006&page=full&comments=true

Who gives to charity?

By John Stossel

Wednesday, December 6, 2006


Americans are pretty generous. Three-quarters of American families give to charity -- and those who do, give an average of $1,800. Of course that means one-quarter of us don't give at all. What distinguishes those who give from those who don't? It turns out there are many myths about that.

To test them, ABC's "20/20" went to Sioux Falls, S.D., and San Francisco. We asked the Salvation Army to set up buckets at their busiest locations in both cities. Which bucket would get more money? I'll get to that in a minute.

San Francisco and Sioux Falls are different in some important ways. Sioux Falls is small and rural, and more than half the people go to church every week.

San Francisco is a much bigger and richer city, and relatively few people attend church. It is also known as a very liberal place, and since liberals are said to "care more" about the poor, you might assume people in San Francisco would give a lot.

But the idea that liberals give more is a myth. Of the top 25 states where people give an above-average percentage of their income, all but one (Maryland) were red -- conservative -- states in the last presidential election.

"When you look at the data," says Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks, "it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more. And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."
Researching his book, "Who Really Cares"
(LINK:
http://www.arthurbrooks.net/),

Brooks found that the conservative/liberal difference goes beyond money:

"The people who give one thing tend to be the people who give everything in America. You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away."

Conservatives are even 18 percent more likely to donate blood.

The second myth is that people with the most money are the most generous. But while the rich give more in total dollars, low-income people give almost 30 percent more as a share of their income.
Says Brooks: "The most charitable people in America today are the working poor."

We saw that in Sioux Falls, S.D. The workers at the meat packing plant make about $35,000, yet the Sioux Falls United Way says it gets more contributions of over $500 from employees there than anywhere else.
Note that Brooks said the "working" poor. The nonworking poor -- people on welfare -- are very different, even though they have the same income. The nonworking poor don't give much at all.

What about the middle class? Well, while middle-income Americans are generous compared to people in other countries, when compared to both the rich and working poor in America, Brooks says, "They give less."
When asked why, many say, "I don't have enough money to spare." But it's telling that the working poor manage to give.

And the rich? What about America's 400 billionaires? I'll report on them in next week's column.

Finally, Brooks says one thing stands out as the biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable: "their religious participation." Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money -- four times as much.

But doesn't that giving just stay within the religion?
"No," says Brooks, "Religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly nonreligious charities. Religious people give more blood; religious people give more to homeless people on the street."

And what happened in our little test? Well, even though people in Sioux Falls make, on average, half as much money as people in San Francisco, and even though the San Francisco location was much busier -- three times as many people were within reach of the bucket -- by the end of the second day, the Sioux Falls bucket held twice as much money.
Another myth bites the dust.


John Stossel is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 

Gatorboy

Active member
You provided the link, so why did you copy/paste the entire article? Wouldn't this violate copyright laws?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Gatorboy said:
You provided the link, so why did you copy/paste the entire article? Wouldn't this violate copyright laws?
Many news sources allow for the reprinting of their articles for non-commerical purposes provided the source, author, etc is provided. It is common practice here at the ForumsForums to provide not only the link, but also at least part of the story being discussed.
Cityboy said:
Isn't it interesting that liberals say they "care more" about people, yet the stats do not bear this out.
They care more as long as it is not THEIR money being spent. Their version of chairty is government centrist charity like the various welfare programs using tax dollars.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
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Good post CB. Interesting but not surprising to me.

Thanks for posting the article HERE. Yes, we need to include the link but for search engines to find us we need the artilces posted here on forumsforums. This is our main source of gaining new members. Posting links to other sites helps the other sites. Posting information here helps forumsforums.

....besides, I prefer not to have to click a link to see what someone is posting about. I find I'll read more of the post if it is included in the thread.
 

Gatorboy

Active member
B_Skurka said:
Many news sources allow for the reprinting of their articles for non-commerical purposes provided the source, author, etc is provided.

Many, but not all.
 

DaveNay

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Good grief. Don't you get tired of all your Republican holier-than-thou chest thumping?! :confused:
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
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A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man....which
debt he proposes to pay off with your money.
- G. Gordon Liddy


I go along with the above statement.....

 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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DaveNay said:
Good grief. Don't you get tired of all your Republican holier-than-thou chest thumping?! :confused:
I don't think it is a Republican - Democrat issue. There are some conservative Democrats. This is more an ideological issue that transends party platforms. And I'm really curious where LIBERTARIANS would fall in the charity rankings, they are typically social liberals and fiscal conservatives.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
DaveNay said:
Good grief. Don't you get tired of all your Republican holier-than-thou chest thumping?! :confused:

I don't think it is a Republican - Democrat issue either. It's ideological.

Many of the self-proclaimed Liberals I know talk one thing but do another.

They are selfish when it comes to their personal charity, racist in their private lives, ignore laws they want others to obey, will not take a stand on principles, and only believe in freedom of speech for positions they agree with.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Well the truth hurts, so liberals have to cry fowl if something doesn’t suit them just right. Kind of like the way Hillary bad mouths the rich, but her and Bill won’t do anything unless millions are involved... (Then they’ll do just about anything!)

http://www.hillaryproject.com/
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
Cityboy said:
And what happened in our little test? Well, even though people in Sioux Falls make, on average, half as much money as people in San Francisco, and even though the San Francisco location was much busier -- three times as many people were within reach of the bucket -- by the end of the second day, the Sioux Falls bucket held twice as much money.
Another myth bites the dust.
Ever been to San Francisco? Christmas season in San Francisco is warm enough to live on the street, with some discomfort, while in Sioux Falls you would die the first night. Some of the homeless crazies are locals down on their luck but the majority are just plain scary. The homeless in SF aren't just lacking housing, they are the rejects from all over the US who left places like Sioux Falls and came west expecting a better quality of charity than their home towns. At the expense of SF taxpayers and charities. From time to time there have been campaigns to halt begging and charitiy solicitations and replace them with grocery vouchers that charitable-hearted folks could hand out in place of cash. (and the vouchers aren't valid for liquor.)

I think your overall point is correct in terms of liberal/conservative but when that author used a Sioux Falls / SF comparison to support it he revealed his agenda is simply liberal-bashing rather than a realistic comparison we can learn something from.

I think a count of charity recipients would find a greater number in San Francisco than Sioux Falls. And a survey of their home towns would show they mostly aren't native Californians, they are largely people who chose to get out of places like Sioux Falls and go where the locals were more generous.
 

Melensdad

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California said:
I think a count of charity recipients would find a greater number in San Francisco than Sioux Falls. And a survey of their home towns would show they mostly aren't native Californians, they are largely people who chose to get out of places like Sioux Falls and go where the locals were more generous.
Interesting point.

Do they go to places like San Francisco becuase "liberal" residents have lowered the bar and provide more? Do they leave places like Sioux Falls because people try to get them to work?

I tend to donate to things, it is just my nature. But when it comes to the beggars I've taken a pretty unsympathetic view over the past several years. Seems like EVERY TIME there was a man or woman standing out with a "WILL WORK FOR FOOD" sign and I saw them I would pull over and offer them a job at my company. I would tell them it included heath insurance for them and their family and that they would get a retirement plan too. The first time I was told by one of them that they didn't want a real job they just wanted some cash I thought it was a fluke. The second time it happened, which was the next time I saw one of them, I still figured it was a fluke. So I made it a point to talk to EVERY SINGLE one of them that I saw. And it was interesting, because I must have talked to 9 or 10 of them, and in EVERY case I got the same type of answer. It was easier to beg than to work.

So I stopped offering jobs to them and now I turn my cold heart away. I don't live in Sioux Falls, but I think those folks may have learned the same lesson that I learned. Perhaps people in S.F. need to learn it too?
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
I made it a point to talk to EVERY SINGLE one of them that I saw. And it was interesting, because I must have talked to 9 or 10 of them, and in EVERY case I got the same type of answer. It was easier to beg than to work.

So I stopped offering jobs to them and now I turn my cold heart away. I don't live in Sioux Falls, but I think those folks may have learned the same lesson that I learned. Perhaps people in S.F. need to learn it too?
Bob, don't challenge the beggars like that. What they will inevitably do after they perceive your cold heart, is move to San Francisco!

The SF locals learned long ago to donate to organized programs like Salvation Army instead of to individuals. But there are always so many tourists visiting, that the beggars have plenty of naive targets.

Here's a comparison of SF and NYC beggars through the eyes of a tourist from Indiana: http://www.bitquabit.com/category/politics/
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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From California's link:

I am unsure how to solve this problem. Clearly, supporting these beggars financially is good neither for them nor for society. If everyone stopped giving, they would vanish, because they do need to eat. If we could all be disciplined to not give any more handouts, though, we’d also cut off those people who truly are too incapacitated to work and truly have run out of options. The “fake” beggars would be forced to find work; the “real” beggars would starve and die. Sadly, the mere fact that these people are also in the street begging means that we are currently being utterly unsuccessful reaching them through charities, shelters, and soup kitchens.

What a f'ing joke. It's simple. Charge them with vagrancy, loitering, or some other similar charge. Make the fine for the charge some form of chain gang work project. Yell at them, whip them, make them work!

We are too soft. Some people just need a little more motivation than others. Bring back public floggings!
 

Melensdad

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PBinWA said:
What a f'ing joke. It's simple. Charge them with vagrancy, loitering, or some other similar charge. Make the fine for the charge some form of chain gang work project. Yell at them, whip them, make them work!
The the exception of the (probably small) percentage of those beggars who may be severly mentally retarded or otherwise clinically unable to care for themselves, I think your point is very clear.

The "consequences" of being a beggar are very low, low enough that the "benefits" outweigh the costs of the consequences. Consequently it seems clear to me that we should increase the "consequences" to our local beggars so that the reasonably low "consequences" incurred in San Francisco seem very attractive and our local beggars simply move to California. Further, is we raise the "consequences" high enough, they will spend their own "hard earned" money to buy their own bus tickets to get to S.F.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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B_Skurka said:
The the exception of the (probably small) percentage of those beggars who may be severly mentally retarded or otherwise clinically unable to care for themselves, I think your point is very clear.

The "consequences" of being a beggar are very low, low enough that the "benefits" outweigh the costs of the consequences. Consequently it seems clear to me that we should increase the "consequences" to our local beggars so that the reasonably low "consequences" incurred in San Francisco seem very attractive and our local beggars simply move to California. Further, is we raise the "consequences" high enough, they will spend their own "hard earned" money to buy their own bus tickets to get to S.F.

I guess that would be the PC interpretation of my thoughts. Kind of bland and lacking in shock value!:whistle:

There are lots of homeless people in Daytona, FL and other "hot spots".

In Canada, they like to go to Victoria or Vancouver, B.C. because the weather is milder in comparison to the rest of Canada. A few years ago the Albertan Premier (like a Governor) had his government buy the homeless and welfare people one way tickets to B.C. That didn't go over so well in B.C. but his career in Alberta didn't seem to suffer.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
Cityboy said:
Isn't it interesting that liberals say they "care more" about people, yet the stats do not bear this out. Of course, they care more with other peoples tax money, but what about with their own money?

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I’d like to share some Liberal/Conservative charity stories from my personal experience.

  • In the pre-Mayor Giuliani days, New York City had been governed by Liberals for decades. The city turned into a human sewer. One day when I was trying to drive cross town, I took notice of the “squeegee men.” Drivers were handing “paper money” to these traffic obstructionists. I timed the transactions. I estimated the “squeegee men” were earning over $60 per hour tax free.

  • I was out to dinner in Atlantic City with some Liberal friends. They laughed at my story and challenged my veracity. In turn, I challenged them. I rubbed some cigar ashes on my face, donned my ragged GI parka that I had in the trunk of my Town Car, wrote a “Please Help Me” sign on a piece of cardboard, and started begging in front of the restaurant. In about 20 minutes I had “earned” over $30 (it paid for a nice bottle of wine). My Liberal friends told me I was “too aggressive“ in the way I was begging.

  • I know a one legged man who has sat in front of the largest office building in Atlantic City every work day for years “selling pencils.” He buys a new car every year, parks it in the next town over and takes a bus to “work.” He lives in a nice mortgage free home, and has sent 3 children through college.

  • I once tried to hire a “Vietnam Vet - Will Work for Food” guy. He didn’t want a job. He told me he was making $300-$500 per day begging.

  • For almost 20 years I went to midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. After Mass I would go through Atlantic City and give money and vouchers for booze, food, shelter, and clothing to derelicts sleeping in alleys or under the boardwalk. None of my Liberal friends would ever go with me (it’s too dangerous). Some even criticized me for doing it (that’s the government’s job).

The Liberals I know aren't "street smart." They seem to reject the fact that some people don't want to live the lifestyle they want them to live. Some people don't want charity. They want to "earn" their own way even if it means begging.

Some people don't want goverment aid. They either can't apply (fugitives or run-a-ways), or don't want to put up with the bureaucratic bullshit.

Others don't want help from some "mission" with preaching or rehab.
 

Cityboy

Banned
DaveNay said:
Good grief. Don't you get tired of all your Republican holier-than-thou chest thumping?! :confused:

Don't you get tired of whining about it? :confused2: Wassamadda, Dave? The truth hurt? :confused:

Seriously though, just a topic for discussion. Why does it perplex you so?
 

DaveNay

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Cityboy said:
Don't you get tired of whining about it? :confused2: Wassamadda, Dave? The truth hurt? :confused:

Seriously though, just a topic for discussion. Why does it perplex you so?

My perplexion (perplexment?) is not with the topic, it's with the constant reminder that you, and most everyone here is a conservative (republican). I just think it's been discussed so many times, that there is no need for the weekly or even daily reminder that you (singular/plural) think that liberals (democrats) are responsible for all the evil and wrong in this country.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink.
 

Cityboy

Banned
Now, now, Dave. Do you really know what I think?

I enjoy discussion of issues that affect us as a nation. Liberals claim to be compassionate and call conservatives selfish and hateful among other things. I presented an article that addresses the liberal claim on all that is compassionate in America. If what the liberals say about themselves is true, then you should defend your position, not complain that I posted something contrary to your beliefs.

If this bothers you, then perhaps you might benefit from reflecting on your own belief system and decide whether the foundation of your beliefs is factual or simply wishful thinking.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
DaveNay said:
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink.

Really?! I'm not limber enough to ever have taken a whiff of mine. So, I'm not sure your statement is true. Unless, of course, you want to check for me. :yum: :yankchain: :tiphat:
 

DaveNay

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Dargo said:
Really?! I'm not limber enough to ever have taken a whiff of mine. So, I'm not sure your statement is true. Unless, of course, you want to check for me. :yum: :yankchain: :tiphat:

I'm not THAT liberal. :eek:
 

AKdadio

New member
Thanks for starting this topic! I had actually done some googling last year to try to answer this very question of who gives more in America. The data is very hard to find but it supports the article posted. Reading down through the posts I really got some chuckles from the many clever exchanges. And now for mine: I give, I believe in God, I am conservative, and BTW. . . when Davenay is done smelling A-holes, he can begin smelling armpits. Cheers my fellow Americans.
 

Melensdad

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AKdadio . . . funny thing about DaveNay is that I suspect he really is a lot closer to a libertarian than a liberal Democrat, but he just can bring himself to admit it.
 

AKdadio

New member
That may conceivably excuse him from giving to charity. Regardless, he has good sense of humor and can apparently take a jabbing.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

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Saw this story today so I thought I'd dig up an old thread . . .

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Leishman_Rory/2007/08/04/4393041.html

U.S. leads world in giving

By RORY LEISHMAN

http://javascript<b></b>:sendit();http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Leishman_Rory/2007/08/04/pf-4393041.htmlhttp://rapids.canoe.ca/cgi-bin/reg/NR-cust_service.pl?MODE=CUSTOMER_SERVICE&LOOK=LFPRESS

Compared to the people of the United States, we Canadians are far more generous in supporting the poor, the sick, the needy and other worthy causes, right?

Actually, that assumption is completely false. In a recent study of generosity in Canada and the U.S., the Fraser Institute found that charitable donations amount to 1.67 per cent of aggregate income in the U.S. as compared to just 0.72 per cent in Canada.

This is not to suggest Canadians are unusually stingy. In Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor in the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse University, reports the people of the U. S. also give more than twice as much of their income to charity as the British and Dutch, almost three times as much as the French, more than five times as much as the Germans, and more than 10 times as much as the Italians.

As in Canada, in every country of Western Europe, the percentage of personal income donated to charity is less than half the level in the United States. Why is that? Why are the peoples of Canada and Western Europe so much less generous than the people of the United States?

One prime factor is the extraordinarily high percentage of committed Christians in the U.S. In a recent survey of attitudes in the countries of Europe and North America, the Pew Research Centre found the proportion of the population for whom religion is "very important" amounts to 59 per cent in the United States as compared to just 30 per cent in Canada, 33 per cent in Britain, 27 per cent in Italy and a mere 11 per cent in France.
Brooks has found that there is a strong and specific correlation between religious faith and support for charity. He relates that: "All across Europe, we find that religious citizens are more than twice as likely to volunteer for charities and causes as secularists."

Brooks has found that there is a strong and specific correlation between religious faith and support for charity.

In the U.S., religious people who say they devote "a great deal of effort" to their spiritual lives are 42 percentage points more likely to contribute to charity than secularists who have little or no religious faith. Moreover, religious Americans do not just give to their churches: They are also significantly more likely than secular Americans to donate money and time to non-religious charities such as the United Way.

Brooks also found a strong and specific correlation between political ideology and charity. In both the United States and Europe, conservatives who believe in limited government are far more likely to make charitable contributions than are liberals who think government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality.

Note the irony: Liberals who support the governmental redistribution of income are apt to deride conservatives as selfish, yet these liberals are far less likely than conservatives to donate their own time and money to help the poor and needy. Of course, there are subsets within both groups: For example, religious liberals are a lot more generous than secular conservatives.

Many of the liberals who give little or nothing to charity try to justify their selfishness by saying government is more effective than private charity at redistributing income.

Brooks argues that the combination of relatively small government and high rates of charitable givings has contributed to the extraordinary economic prosperity and relatively high living standards for all income classes in the United States.

And he also contends that it's no coincidence that unlike Canada and Europe, the United States, the world's most Christian and conservative democracy, has avoided a calamitous drop in birth rates.

Canadians might well meditate upon Brooks' findings: Perhaps, with more religious conviction and less reliance on big government, we, too, might also become more generous, more prosperous and less reliant on massive levels of immigration to sustain the population.
 

bczoom

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Hmmm. I found this part interesting.


"Brooks also found a strong and specific correlation between political ideology and charity. In both the United States and Europe, conservatives who believe in limited government are far more likely to make charitable contributions than are liberals who think government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality.

Note the irony: Liberals who support the governmental redistribution of income are apt to deride conservatives as selfish, yet these liberals are far less likely than conservatives to donate their own time and money to help the poor and needy. Of course, there are subsets within both groups: For example, religious liberals are a lot more generous than secular conservatives."
 

Deadly Sushi

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You provided the link, so why did you copy/paste the entire article? Wouldn't this violate copyright laws?
Not if you provide the link. Pretty simple.

Now it would be great if some person realized that the US gives more than anyone. And the gov't gives FAR too much to Isreal. I dont get it.:smileywac
 

Melensdad

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Not if you provide the link. Pretty simple.
There is actually some debate about that in the legal community. I think it is fair to say that I post quite a few article from news agencies, but I'm not so sure that non-news agencies are as forgiving about posting articles even if you provide a link. Most will allow it in a non-commercial application, but they still don't automatically grant it. We should not assume that providing the link is all we need to do.

JMO
 
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